Leasing Ruins Conservation

[jjb4900]

I hunted State lands in The Catskills since the late 70's and if I was too young to hunt at the time I was tagging along.......and if those deer didn't have a safe place to run to, they would have been wiped out, and a lot of them were...and I'm not even joking.

[stoneam2006]

I get the whole overpopulation, over browsing, disease thing, but it's private land...case closed. I think the State trying some type of incentive program for landowners to open their property to hunters is a great thing.....and it may work, but other then that it's a dead end road.

Yea absolutly I've said it many times....a certified hunter program on a lottery based system with tax breaks to encourage landowners to open up land to set individuals over a Sept to February season. With a no fault guarantee and allow landowners to make decisions on quad usage stand type usage and even if rifles can be used on the property...I'm not saying that landowners should be required to open it but let's give them some incentive

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[growalot]

These people are not "land owners" they are big lot owners usually with kids kids all close together...That isn't going to work no matter what the state does and by God it's not other tax payers obligation to give hunters free access or help protect those peoples landscaping.

Sorry farmers get enough breaks, I'm talking big business farming. Here's something to think about ....Do you think farmers enjoy paying crop insurance premiums? Do you think those claims are done with out question or premium hikes? Because ,we all know insurance companies live to give away their profits. Lets add the farmers that lease to hunters or land owners that lease to both ,like what we have. Wonder why I never mention deer being shot around me  other than poaching? It's because these farmers apparently aren't seeing enough damage by these hordes of deer that the DEC says are here and SOME think surrounding land owners do not shoot, to get deer damage permits. You know like the ones Fast Eddie mentions having used on farms ...wait for it...near those cute little developments. Where farmers know they have a problem. Like Mendon,Macedon, Victor,Honeyoe Falls ect..ect..ect...I can tell you the hunting lessees here would love those permits..yet  there's no shooting around here. Why would you suppose this is...could it be too many assumptions? We have a couple of QDM properties here as well...are you assuming they don't shoot doe?...Do you honestly think the beef and horse farmers around here aren't concerned with and managing for diseases caused by deer,coons and fox? We had a horse farmer loose several horses due to a deer borne disease...You think there is no shooting on those lands?  Say all you want, an Padre said it  best in his post below. This entire thread had nothing to do with conservation...OP lost his hunting and had sour grapes and as Padre said:

Quote

 All of the state lands, multiple use areas and national forests in western NY are teeming with hunters once the season starts....to the point where you're bumping into more hunters than you are game.  Much of the game definitely becomes wise in those areas and heads off to other pieces of land, usually private, where they face far less hunting pressure.  And you have to be extremely aware and careful of where you go...I can't even recall how many times I've walked down trails and right into the line-of-fire of other hunters who were still-hunting.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of conservation concern in that quote...must be missing it....hhhmmmmm

Edited September 6, 2016 by growalot

[Buckmaster7600]

You're hopeless Grow....if conservative traditions, including hunting, become marginalized in this state, you'll have your own stubborn self, and like-minded compatriots, to thank.

And for the nth time, I'm not advocating for forcing landowners to share their land with other hunters, and I don't think the OP was either.  You and a few others on this thread keep repeating phrases like "free-lunchers" and "whiners" and  "hunting on the shoulders of others."  I do support free-market and government initiatives to incentivize sharing of private land; if that makes me a "free-luncher" then you and I have absolutely nothing to agree on here.

 

Edit: also, I never used the phrase "have and have not's."

The problem with incentives is it would be monetary and who would pay for that? I personally don't like paying for others to do things I have to pay for myself.


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[Padre86]

56 minutes ago, growalot said:

  Say all you want, an Padre said it  best in his post below. This entire thread had nothing to do with conservation...OP lost his hunting and had sour grapes and as Padre said:

I'm not seeing a whole lot of conservation concern in that quote...must be missing it....hhhmmmmm

Conservation is very much at the heart of what I brought up.  When you have a whole bunch of hunting activity focused on select pieces of public land, while you have large swaths of private land that see minimal hunting, or in some cases none at all, you have an inherently imbalanced approach to managing the deer herd on a state-wide level.

 

The post of mine you brought up merely shows that public-land hunting isn't as easy and practical as you make it out to be.  I've been saying from very early on though, that deer need to be managed with the bigger picture in mind or else we will have problems.  I'm pretty sure the OP made that point as well.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Padre86

[growalot]

Quote

 When you have a whole bunch of hunting activity focused on select pieces of public land, while you have large swaths of private land that see minimal hunting, or in some cases none at all, you have an inherently imbalanced

 

Please enlighten me as to these lands you speak of. Also to the number of days and hours you hunt near said lands so I can get a better picture of the minimal pressure you have adhered to them.

 

Edited September 6, 2016 by growalot

[Core]

7 hours ago, growalot said:

You people live in a state that has continually added MORE land to it's public recreation...which includes hunting...You also have a state that has more land in private conservation contracts..which,fact, in many instances  are huntable, if you go and do a little research. The "haves and haves nots" This entire thread explains exactly why this election is so screwed up! There are no "republicans " left...your all Democrats hiding under the republican name...

You must not be referring to western NY. Yes, central there are tons of public hunting land. You could trek for days around the Adirondacks and never see a soul. But if you're in Rochester (Buffalo looks even worse), for example, there really isn't much public land for the amount of people. http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/45415.html Other than NYC Buffalo & Rochester appear to be the worst cities in the state for access to public land.

I could be ignorant but I have no idea how to find these "private conservation contracts" that are also huntable.

 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Core

[jjb4900]

31 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

The problem with incentives is it would be monetary and who would pay for that? I personally don't like paying for others to do things I have to pay for myself.


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I would gladly have some of my tax dollars go towards a program like that, when you sit back and consider that most of us pay for other programs that the vast majority of us will never benefit from, why not this as well?........if you're paying taxes, you've been paying for other people to do things all along......School taxes, how many people no longer have kids, but keep having to pay? only a handful of kids get to play sports and other school activities, but we all pay for that.....public assistance, aka welfare, we're paying for that.......the list is endless of things we all pay for but most likely will never reap the benefits of......

Edited September 6, 2016 by jjb4900

[Core]

3 hours ago, Jeremy K said:

I've checked out many state land hunting areas during bow season and maybe have seen one or two cars parked at the road but never saw the people hunting.

This was my experience last year at the public land I used. It's why I would be deeply upset if they ever started allowing gun season to overlap early bow. Even crossbow could threaten this badly as I think crossbows are going to be increasingly popular. For now I have basically a month of little pressure, which is the least one can ask for when bowhunting.

[Padre86]

 

14 minutes ago, growalot said:

 

Please enlighten me as to these lands you speak of. Also to the number of days and hours you hunt near said lands so I can get a better picture of the minimal pressure you have adhered to them.

 

Grow, you and a few others on here have freely admitted that you don't let many hunters onto your property, if any at all:

 

On 9/2/2016 at 6:15 AM, growalot said:

Yes sir...as a landowner if I ever thought I might say yes to opening our place up to a stranger or to when I get too old or just can't hunt...That thought is so far gone the light of day will never find it after reading this.

 

On 9/2/2016 at 1:09 PM, Buckmaster7600 said:

I'm with grow on this one, maybe when I'm too old to hunt I might consider leasing it but as long as I'm able there will be no one else hunting other than my brother and father.
 

 

On 9/2/2016 at 2:54 PM, Papist said:

We allowed some family acquaintances to hunt our property for a time. We endured poaching, littering and attempts to utilize multiple family tags in order to clean out the woods of deer. These guys were not even strangers.

 

On 9/4/2016 at 1:24 PM, Buckmaster7600 said:

I am one of those selfish land owners that doesn't allow anyone to hunt it other than family and I still hunt state land most of the time. I do this because my 300acre and 100 acre chunks do no allow me to hunt the way I love to hunt. It's hard to spend a day tracking or still hunting on these small parcels and that's why I have a camp in the ADKS and that's where I spend the majority of my season. Now don't get me wrong I love having the ability to walk out my front or back door and go hunting. I only know of 4 deer being shot on the 300 acres around the house in the last 3 years and only 1 was a buck the other 3 were does that my 96 year old neighbor shot. I have a pretty balanced deer herd on it of about 2.5 does to bucks.
 

 

On 9/4/2016 at 2:04 PM, chefhunter86 said:

I am part of that 18-35 year old demographic and I have made it my business to be able to buy land. I work my ass off to do so and still have the things I want in life. And now that I do own land I will open it up to no one because I worked for it and it is mine. The only people besides myself and my wife that will be allowed to hunt is my long time hunting partner! We have been friends since we were kids, and have hunted together a long time now.... Heck I won't even let my own brother hunt.
 

 

I'm not knocking any of these posters for keeping their property exclusive or only allowing a select few acquaintances to hunt it.  But there is no question that there is a huge difference between the hunting pressure deer face on public land and on  private land when it comes to western and central NY.

[Core]

45 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

The problem with incentives is it would be monetary and who would pay for that? I personally don't like paying for others to do things I have to pay for myself.


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People who want to take part in this lottery system pay each year. $50 or whatever to have some half decent chance of having a nice piece of property to hunt for the season. Probably land owners could make more leasing, but a lot don't bother for whatever reason.

[growalot]

http://www.geneseevalleyconservancy.org/conserve/conserving-your-land   

When I dealt with them and they did the survey on land we bought. I was told by them personally, that some properties had hunting allowed...wasn't promoted but due to contractual agreements allowed on some properties.

What your saying is you have to have enough that you won't see another soul or it isn't enough? Isn't that the type of "Lack of pressure" some feel makes private lands a conversation nightmare? I'm thinking you can't have it both ways...

[DirtTime]

I don't feel land owners should be forced to open their land to the public. This has been talked abut more then a few times here. Look at it this way, say you have a pool, is it OK for anyone to just stop in and use as long as they bring the beer? Or, just walk in and start watching TV if I leave a $5 spot on the table when I leave?

 

[growalot]

Listen carefully so you avoid looking stupid:

I have 73 acres and that is surrounded by 23 neighboring properties ...ALL hunters

 Now I have a Spouse and 2 children ...All hunters and that statement said, strangers on my lands. Now we also have a camp 68 acres and all family have hunted there us,in laws and every year multiple friends come and spend  days hunting there. There's a couple of guys on here that could attest to that......We have had as many as16 guys at one time on that and the 50 acres next to us we had permission to hunt...See what happens with assumptions and cherry picking. In fact I  once had picture of all of the gang at camp posted here. I've mentioned the kids hunting here...Not so much Mr B but that's because he hunts at camp and does not like how unsafe it is to hunt here..Seeing both I and one of my neighbors have both been nearly shot out of our 16ft tree stands .Each on our own property by two different neighbors a year apart...

Now I have been purposely rather snarky with you, why? because I read between the lines and I will draw on someone until the lines widen and a bit more truth shows...your truth has shown brightly, do not fault me for that, just own it...

Edited September 6, 2016 by growalot

[DirtTime]

4 minutes ago, growalot said:

Listen carefully so you avoid looking stupid:

I have 73 acres and that is surrounded by 23 neighboring properties ...ALL hunters

 Now I have a Spouse and 2 children ...All hunters and that statement said, strangers on my lands. Now we also have a camp 68 acres and all family have hunted there us,in laws and every year multiple friends come and spend  days hunting there. There's a couple of guys on here that could attest to that......We have had as many as16 guys at one time on that and the 50 acres next to us we had permission to hunt...See what happens with assumptions and cherry picking. In fact I  once had picture of all of the gang at camp posted here. I've mentioned the kids hunting here...Not so much Mr B but that's because he hunts at camp and does not like how unsafe it is to hunt here..Seeing both I and one of my neighbors have both been nearly shot out of our 16ft tree stands .Each on our own property by two different neighbors a year apart...

Now I have been purposely rather snarky with you, why? because I read between the lines and I will draw on someone until the lines widen and a bit more truth shows...your true has shown brightly, do not fault me for that, just own it...

Um........................ Me? 

[growalot]

No rob...you haven't put yourself on my radar...

Edited September 6, 2016 by growalot

[Padre86]

6 minutes ago, growalot said:

Listen carefully so you avoid looking stupid:

I have 73 acres and that is surrounded by 23 neighboring properties ...ALL hunters

 Now I have a Spouse and 2 children ...All hunters and that statement said, strangers on my lands. Now we also have a camp 68 acres and all family have hunted there us,in laws and every year multiple friends come and spend  days hunting there. There's a couple of guys on here that could attest to that......We have had as many as16 guys at one time on that and the 50 acres next to us we had permission to hunt...See what happens with assumptions and cherry picking. In fact I  once had picture of all of the gang at camp posted here. I've mentioned the kids hunting here...Not so much Mr B but that's because he hunts at camp and does not like how unsafe it is to hunt here..Seeing both I and one of my neighbors have both been nearly shot out of our 16ft tree stands .Each on our own property by two different neighbors a year apart...

Now I have been purposely rather snarky with you, why? because I read between the lines and I will draw on someone until the lines widen and a bit more truth shows...your true has shown brightly, do not fault me for that, just own it...

Grow, fine, forget what I said about your property specifically; but others on here have said quite explicitly that they don't allow many others to hunt their lands.  

And you're very conveniently ignoring the main point I was making: private land, on the whole, doesn't have nearly the same level of hunting pressure that public land does in western and central NY.  The deer know this.  If you'd like to join me for a hunt in Carlton Hill after the first day of gun season, I'd be more than happy to show you what I mean.

[growalot]

Quote

if you're paying taxes, you've been paying for other people to do things all along......School taxes, how many people no longer have kids, but keep having to pay? only a handful of kids get to play sports and other school activities, but we all pay for that.....public assistance, aka welfare, we're paying for that.......the list is endless of things we all pay for but most likely will never reap the benefits of......

OMG ...did you actually read that before posting?  OK..let me rephrase...Did you comprehend what you were actually saying before posting it?..I..I think I just had an aneurysm.

[Padre86]

29 minutes ago, ....rob said:

I don't feel land owners should be forced to open their land to the public. This has been talked abut more then a few times here. Look at it this way, say you have a pool, is it OK for anyone to just stop in and use as long as they bring the beer? Or, just walk in and start watching TV if I leave a $5 spot on the table when I leave?

 

Who here is advocating for that?

[DirtTime]

2 minutes ago, Padre86 said:

Who here is advocating for that?

A few in the past have hinted at it. not outright saying it, but, suggestive enough if you pay attention.

The bottom line is, public land will always get hit harder, especially land in suburbia. I never hunted the burbs unlit a few years ago, I am not a fan, but being in the woods hunting is better then sitting on the couch. I actually plan to hunt that spot again this year, the difference, I know what I am getting into this time, and prepared for it.

 

 

[jjb4900]

I never thought I'd say this, but one of the benefits to hunting on long Island is that all the State and County owned lands are marked with parking spots.........only 1 vehicle for spot in most areas, kinda keeps you from running into other hunters for the most park, but it is way over regulated to some extent.

[Chef]

 

 

I'm not knocking any of these posters for keeping their property exclusive or only allowing a select few acquaintances to hunt it.  But there is no question that there is a huge difference between the hunting pressure deer face on public land and on  private land when it comes to western and central NY.

Right! And that's why I bought land to get away from the hunting pressure not to share it with you..... Go get a job


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[grampy]

2 hours ago, Padre86 said:

 

Grow, you and a few others on here have freely admitted that you don't let many hunters onto your property, if any at all:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not knocking any of these posters for keeping their property exclusive or only allowing a select few acquaintances to hunt it.  But there is no question that there is a huge difference between the hunting pressure deer face on public land and on  private land when it comes to western and central NY.

I freely and proudly admit that hunting pressure is low on my properties. I've busted my butt my whole life and sacrificed plenty to make it that way. And I won't apologize for doing what "I" want to do with what I have.

[The_Real_TCIII]

I think the fundamental flaw in arguing that people should let others hunt their land, like back in the day, is that these aren't farms we are talking about. These are properties these folks own specifically for their own hunting. Also I lease and I prefer cookies, especially Samoas

[growalot]

Conservation...not conversation nightmere