SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[moog5050]

12 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

Hypothetically what if new hunters were guaranteed adore permit for any weapon instead of allowing them to shoot a spike? This is something I have supported for a long time before AR's were considered. I live and hunt in areas where we don't get dmp's so I had to wait for a buck.


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Not sure what an "adore" permit allows.  Kidding, I suppose doe would fit the bill.  I personally don't like restricting the right to choose even if what I choose does not violate the proposed law.  But I can understand arguments on both sides of this issue.  Would I like a better chance at big bucks, sure.  Just not at the expense of my right to decide.  Then again, I know that DEC already has rules that restricts my right to decide in other ways.  I will admit that I really don't have a clue whether this would benefit the "health" of the herd or not.  I don't think that is the impetus behind it in any event.

[Buckmaster7600]

Not sure what an "adore" permit allows.  Kidding, I suppose doe would fit the bill.  I personally don't like restricting the right to choose even if what I choose does not violate the proposed law.  But I can understand arguments on both sides of this issue.  Would I like a better chance at big bucks, sure.  Just not at the expense of my right to decide.  Then again, I know that DEC already has rules that restricts my right to decide in other ways.  I will admit that I really don't have a clue whether this would benefit the "health" of the herd or not.  I don't think that is the impetus behind it in any event.

I don't like the idea of AR's either I was talking about new hunters in general.


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[wolc123]

7 hours ago, grampy said:

2 30 pages now! Has anyone changed their point of view, by the content of 30 pages of he said, she said, this way, that way, and no way? Didn't think so. Carry on............................................................................

Yes, this is a hunting forum, open to discuss hunting related topics. But sometimes, the topic denigrates to the point of the proverbial dog chasing it's tail. I think valid points were made for both sides of the discussion in the first 10 pages. Guess I'll cruise on over to the beer or food thread...........................................................

I changed my point of view on AR's after reading this thread.   The main benefit I see is that it will make people think a little more,  and identify their target before pulling the trigger or releasing the arrow.    That will make everyone safer and will probably result in less wounded and non-recovered deer.    Unfortunately, my home zone (9F) is not covered by the bill, but if it has a positive impact in other zones, it is likely to follow.   The other zone I hunt (6C), is covered by the 3-point AR, so I may see some benefit this fall if the bill passes.  

I worry a bit about how they will enforce a violation.   I would like to see no fine for a violation (not enough points).  Instead, I would like to see the hunter keep his "accident", but loose the right to purchase a buck tag for that season the following year.   This way, those asking for a "one buck rule"  get to see a little of that.  I would also make no exemptions for young hunters.   They are the ones who need the most practice in identifying their target before shooting.  

The largest factor in me changing my stance on AR's was a neighbor kid shooting a little buck last season, that I had passed a week or so earlier.  He told me later, that he thought it was a doe (the three point rack was hidden behind the ears), and he seemed genuinely upset that he had killed the little buck.   I bet he wished that those AR's were in place at the time.       

[dbHunterNY]

i fully believe whether regulated or however mandated antler restrictions should include exemptions for youth and new hunters. given you define the latter to a small extent, it's completely feasible to do so at a state level.  i've seen it practiced that way on very large tracts of contiguous ground for comparison right here in NY and the results were awesome.  breathe and just keep reading. lol.... in some cases the youth or new hunters set the bar high enough to meet the restrictions anyway and in other cases they didn't.  it created an abundance of opportunity.  still it was there choice based on the opportunity they could create.  experience gained each season is more than maybe it otherwise would be as they experienced more activity and had interactions with deer more often than usual each season.  it seems to get them hooked.  we don't have a shortage of hunters here in NY.  the average age of our hunting population is getting older though and that's a problem may rear it's ugly head when the baby boomer generation gets too old to hunt.  having a new hunter or youth hit the woods to compete with seasoned hunters, especially in areas full of the "if it's brown it's down" mind set makes it tough.  if you expect to simply tell them "better luck next time" or "that's why they call it hunting.", you're going to be out a hunting buddy eventually.  with anything that restricts buck harvest, not just ARs, those against it seem to think implying it's going to hurt youth and first time hunters is a silver bullet.  in reality if implemented right it couldn't be farther from the truth.

[wolc123]

I disagree db, and I am glad to see that the bill being considered does not include exemptions for the youth and inexperienced.  Those are the people who stand to gain the most by following the rules.  That kid next door was almost crying with that little buck, knowing that he blew his chance at a few of the big ones that were running around last season.   

 

 

[buckman4c]

Youth hunters should be exempt from AR. Although I support AR's, it doesn't hurt the objective whatsoever for the youth to harvest bucks by the current rules. In fact, it is suggested that harvests should involve all age classes of bucks to some degree. AR protects a majority of yearlings but not all, very few 2.5's and "almost" none of older age classes. They would contribute to the harvesting of younger age classes and of those older bucks which don't meet AR criteria. In their minds, if explained properly, will believe in their contribution toward managing the resource.

The youth are the future of the sport and however you want to look at it, many are part of todays instant gratification society. A parent or mentor must work very hard to create a burning desire in todays youth to carry on the tradition of deer hunting. They are our future. Allowing them to harvest their "first" buck no matter the size, to learn the ways of the deer hunter etc. are very important at the early stages. Sure, some have that built in burning desire and would carry on with or without AR but many, maybe most, need a little extra push or incentive. Let them learn, let them harvest and by the time they must follow AR, they will be better prepared to meet the challenge and understand "why" if appropriately informed.

Just my humble opinion on youth hunters and AR.

[chas0218]

19 hours ago, growalot said:

I know...but I have to tell you reading this entire thread...I really have to say I get the impression...way too many do not realize, 1 1/2 yr olds develop more than 4pt's total.

Grow you realize it is 3 or 4 on one side not of total points? That would make the deer a 6 or 8 point. On our property generally speaking we have 2 1/2 year olds with 8 points and 1 1/2 year olds with 6 or less. From all the articles I have read over the years that seems to be the general consensus no matter where people hunt. The idea is to have an older herd with better age structure.

[chas0218]

17 hours ago, moog5050 said:

Rack

It may be more of a concern about encouraging youth to hunt vs. total hunter numbers.  There are clearly a lot hunters in NY.  I don't know for certain, but I suspect that there are less youth hunting now than 30 years ago.  Assuming that's true, there are many factors that play into that unrelated to actual hunting.  But, it would be nice if a youngster starting out could shoot a spike if he/she desired and it gets them excited about hunting.  It could be discouraging for that youth to hunt several seasons and see bucks but nothing that he/she could shoot.  Does that result in someone that gives it up - who knows.  But it would be nice if they had the choice.  I know when I bring a kid fishing, I am looking for action more than the trophy to keep them entertained. 

I know my comment is hypothetical, but I could see ARs as deterring youth participation and, as a result, hunter numbers a generation or 2 from now.  Its hard enough to keep youth interested with today's fast paced, immediate gratification mentality.

Couldn't agree more it isn't the number of hunters but the number of hunters that will be replaced by the younger generation. Unfortunately the instant gratification thing doesn't work in the wild and that is a huge turn off for a lot of young people.

16 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Hypothetically what if new hunters were guaranteed doe permit for any weapon instead of allowing them to shoot a spike? This is something I have supported for a long time before AR's were considered. I live and hunt in areas where we don't get dmp's so I had to wait for a buck.

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Why not travel a little ways to an area that has DMP's and state land? If you are hunting with a bow you get an either sex tag that can be used for a doe. Also if you crossbow hunt you will get a antlerless tag. The only issues becomes when it is regular season. 

I think the system is flawed in terms of DMP they should only be for female deer. If you make the decision to shoot deer and ends up being a button buck so be it and you just ate your buck tag. This should also apply to spikes less than 3" if it has antlers it's a buck and with AR and you shoot it you should be fined. If that were the case I feel there would be a lot more people double checking their target before pulling the trigger or letting that arrow fly. With AR it might make people pay a little more attention and not shoot the first thing that walks out before sunrise knowing they might get a fine.

[WNYBuckHunter]

15 hours ago, wolc123 said:

The largest factor in me changing my stance on AR's was a neighbor kid shooting a little buck last season, that I had passed a week or so earlier.  He told me later, that he thought it was a doe (the three point rack was hidden behind the ears), and he seemed genuinely upset that he had killed the little buck.   I bet he wished that those AR's were in place at the time.       

How exactly, would ARs have helped him?

[moog5050]

28 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

How exactly, would ARs have helped him?

I think the contention is that he would not have shot because he would have then seen the small rack because he would have looked closer.  So no small buck and he could have hunted the bigger ones around.  I don't buy it, but I believe that is what wolc is suggesting.

[dbHunterNY]

28 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

How exactly, would ARs have helped him?

it would've helped him a ton... ARs (adult responsibilities that is) would've helped him a ton.  if the kid was genuinely upset he was taking burden and acknowledging fault.  seems like a standup kid that just made a mistake.  i'd think an adult being there to talk him off the ledge and discuss what happened so he doesn't make the same mistake again would've done a lot.  maybe that did happen idk.  antler restrictions i don't think has anything to do with it.  i suppose you could make the stretch that the preconditioned mindset with ARs is looking more for any head gear but the mistake was simply that of being antlerless or not.

[growalot]

CHAS..it's pretty obvious I know it is 3-4  on one side. It is also obvious that I am not the only one in this discussion that has 5-8 +pts. 1 1/2 yr.old deer  in their area... I think it may have been Phade that said he shot a,1 1/2 old 10pt as I recall.. That said..you proved my point ,thanks

[dbHunterNY]

in my experience hunting with ARs, i do believe that AR's do slow a hunter down in the sense that they wait to id the target better.  which in turn means the it's closer or more into view.  a situation where it's deep into the woods or farther away can't be as clearly identified, but more importantly would be more of a marginal shot opportunity.  in the case where antlers overall where big enough or it simply had antlers, a hunter might be inclined to take that shot, because they don't know if they'll get a better one. bullets can get deflected or simply miss the mark due to distance.  you'd think hunters in general would acknowledge the marginal shot opportunity and pass, which many do.  it's a grey area with every situation different from the next, and those marginal shots aren't always passed.

[growalot]

Or...seeing people are taking stabs in the dark here,The kid could have just been saying what he thought others wanted to hear as an excuse as to why he shot a small racked buck. This after seeing or knowing of reactions to other people's perceived poor choices. Perhaps no one would have needed to be around to " talk him off the ledge" had he not been guilted from the get go? Just allowed to take a good clean kill shot on a legal deer. Perhaps the adults around him forced him into a lie ,in pretending to be upset to avoid " the looks" and passive aggressive comments to are inevitable from such people.

Edited March 29, 2017 by growalot

[Rebel Darling]

18 hours ago, land 1 said:

Dont know if it is true just saw on another site  that this bill died in albany and wont be approved again dont know the truth behind it but thats what i read. It also said the crossbow bill allowing the use of them during all bow season is still being considered

While the bill isn't likely to get passed in the Assembly this year, it's not technically dead, especially when you consider that there are majority sponsors in both chambers.  The bill has some legs under it, but my sense is that it's sprint is short-lived.  For now...  Priorities in Albany can change quicker than the weather.

The crossbow bill has more legs (more lobbying money behind it), and takes longer strides each session.  I'm unsure if it will make it past the Assembly this year, but folks are pitching it as a revenue generator, and that concept looks mighty bright in the looming shadow of Federal cuts.

 

[dbHunterNY]

15 minutes ago, Rebel Darling said:

While the bill isn't likely to get passed in the Assembly this year, it's not technically dead, especially when you consider that there are majority sponsors in both chambers.  The bill has some legs under it, but my sense is that it's sprint is short-lived.  For now...  Priorities in Albany can change quicker than the weather.

The crossbow bill has more legs (more lobbying money behind it), and takes longer strides each session.  I'm unsure if it will make it past the Assembly this year, but folks are pitching it as a revenue generator, and that concept looks mighty bright in the looming shadow of Federal cuts.

 

poaching legislation seems to have some legs too.  already through the assembly and part way through the senate.

[hunterdan44]

I hunt in region 4 and have had a/r in my hunting area since 2010 I believe. I will say it has been no problem for myself and my family and I feel it has improved our hunting as well . I bought this property in 1985 so I have a good understanding of my area as I have been hunting there since 1977. The first year of a/r the
action was a little slow , as far as buck sightings but I now see more racked bucks than ever before and the rutting activity seems to be increased. Prior to a/r shooting an 8 pt or better was not that often , since a/r we take one or two a year. I've also seen some beauties during archery . I was sceptical when we went to A/R but it's actually been pretty good.


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[dbHunterNY]

27 minutes ago, growalot said:

Or...seeing people are taking stabs in the dark here,The kid could has just been saying what he thought others wanted to hear as an excuse as to why he shot a small racked buck. This after seeing or knowing of reactions to other people's perceived poor choices. Perhaps no one would have needed to be around to " talk him off the ledge" had he not been guilted from the get go? Just allowed to take a good clean kill shot on a legal deer. Perhaps the adults around him forced him into a lie ,in pretending to be upset to avoid " the looks" and passive aggressive comments to are inevitable from such people.

wolc posted a story.  he said the kid seemed genuinely upset that it ended up being a buck and not a doe, antler size not being at all the key point.  we have to take wolc's word for his observations just as others have done for you when you post your trail cam pictures in here to discuss antler observations.  not sure as though it was mentioned that the kid was guilted, hecked, and/or whipped in a closet or whatever you're leading this into.  heck why don't we assume he'd got a half dozen heads in the bushes nearby, he shot the night before, and that morning he clubbed a baby seal before breakfast.  ....what's with you and wild tangents?? lol

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, moog5050 said:

I think the contention is that he would not have shot because he would have then seen the small rack because he would have looked closer.  So no small buck and he could have hunted the bigger ones around.  I don't buy it, but I believe that is what wolc is suggesting.

What Im wondering though, is he said he thought it was a doe, not that he thought it was a bigger buck, so ARs wouldnt have helped, as he wasnt looking at the rack.

[dbHunterNY]

25 minutes ago, hunterdan44 said:

I hunt in region 4 and have had a/r in my hunting area since 2010 I believe. I will say it has been no problem for myself and my family and I feel it has improved our hunting as well . I bought this property in 1985 so I have a good understanding of my area as I have been hunting there since 1977. The first year of a/r the
action was a little slow , as far as buck sightings but I now see more racked bucks than ever before and the rutting activity seems to be increased. Prior to a/r shooting an 8 pt or better was not that often , since a/r we take one or two a year. I've also seen some beauties during archery . I was sceptical when we went to A/R but it's actually been pretty good.


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i assume you're taking the buck that you will, but still observing otherwise legal bucks while out hunting.  when DEC looks at the entire area with ARs they see, when looking at numbers on paper, a small decrease in opportunity as to them it relates to buck harvest.  from your point of view, do you feel you've perceived any significant decrease in opportunity to harvest a legal buck given one has to now meet the antler restrictions to be legal?

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, growalot said:

Or...seeing people are taking stabs in the dark here,The kid could have just been saying what he thought others wanted to hear as an excuse as to why he shot a small racked buck. This after seeing or knowing of reactions to other people's perceived poor choices. Perhaps no one would have needed to be around to " talk him off the ledge" had he not been guilted from the get go? Just allowed to take a good clean kill shot on a legal deer. Perhaps the adults around him forced him into a lie ,in pretending to be upset to avoid " the looks" and passive aggressive comments to are inevitable from such people.

Exactly. He shouldnt have to make any excuses for shooting that buck, and the adults that talked to him should have been explaining that instead of getting upset that he shot a deer they had passed on.

[WNYBuckHunter]

30 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

wolc posted a story.  he said the kid seemed genuinely upset that it ended up being a buck and not a doe, antler size not being at all the key point.  we have to take wolc's word for his observations just as others have done for you when you post your trail cam pictures in here to discuss antler observations.  not sure as though it was mentioned that the kid was guilted, hecked, and/or whipped in a closet or whatever you're leading this into.  heck why don't we assume he'd got a half dozen heads in the bushes nearby, he shot the night before, and that morning he clubbed a baby seal before breakfast.  ....what's with you and wild tangents?? lol

If the kid was making excuses for shooting a small buck, its pretty obvious why he would do that. How many times have you seen guys giving people crap on here for shooting smaller bucks? Ive watched and heard adults doing just that to young hunters.

[growalot]

Lets try this DBH... Do you have any understanding of  the phrase " taking stabs in the dark"?

I'm pretty sure others here do. Thus my deliberate use of the term. BTW, I did read what he wrote, but let me refresh you:

Take a mental note as to  where your comments to others stemmed from in that paragraph. The bold and underline will tell you where mine did. Now try to draw a line from there to the " stab in the dark " comment I made. If you still can not understand I give up.

Quote

The largest factor in me changing my stance on AR's was a neighbor kid shooting a little buck last season, that I had passed a week or so earlier.  He told me later, that he thought it was a doe (the three point rack was hidden behind the ears), and he seemed genuinely upset that he had killed the little buck.   I bet he wished that those AR's were in place at the time.  

 

[chas0218]

1 hour ago, growalot said:

CHAS..it's pretty obvious I know it is 3-4  on one side. It is also obvious that I am not the only one in this discussion that has 5-8 +pts. 1 1/2 yr.old deer  in their area... I think it may have been Phade that said he shot a,1 1/2 old 10pt as I recall.. That said..you proved my point ,thanks

Ok I wasn't sure the way you worded your post. It looked as tho you were talking about total points. Thanks for clearing that up. Culver creek mentioned the fact that the bill wouldn't keep all yearlings from being shot but the majority a 10 point yearling is definitely out of the ordinary and that animal had some great potential.

Edited March 29, 2017 by chas0218

[dbHunterNY]

11 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

If the kid was making excuses for shooting a small buck, its pretty obvious why he would do that. How many times have you seen guys giving people crap on here for shooting smaller bucks? Ive watched and heard adults doing just that to young hunters.

i get it and not arguing that it doesn't happen.  aside from wolcs mindset it's all speculation and jumping to bad conclusions based on assumption.  antler size had nothing to do with the issue aside from apparently they were masked by the ears to appear to be a doe.  for all we now he stewed about it in silence, praying the Jesus he won't go off on the kid. lol