Stuck in my old ways of thinking

[Mr VJP]

I can think of no quotation more appropriate than this one:

"Did you really think we want those laws observed?” said Dr.  Ferris. “We want them to be broken. You’d better get it straight that  it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against… We’re after power and  we mean it… There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any  government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there  aren’t enough criminals one makes them.  One declares so many  things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without  breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there  in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be  observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a  nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the  system, Mr. Reardon, that’s the game, and once you understand it, you’ll  be much easier to deal with.”

- From Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand (1957)

The proliferation of regulations (and the punishments associated with  even unintentionally breaching those regulations) associated with  Obamacare is designed to make of the medical profession and the private  sector providers of all health care services into a class of people  essentially subject to penal servitude, with no doctor, no nurse, no  medical technician, no hospital administrator in this country capable of  resisting the imposition of coercive command by politicians and  bureaucrats of the federal and state governments.

The objective of Barry Soetoro (who never did legally  change his name back to “Barack Hussein Obama” after having been adopted  by Lolo Soetoro and becoming a citizen of Indonesia in his childhood)  and the rest of the National Socialist Party has been to conscript the  entirety of the health care sector of the U.S. economy into a regimen of  dirigisme guaranteed to simultaneously bankrupt the nation and  deliver the American people into the same kind of medical care enjoyed  by the proletariat in the old Soviet Union.

[Mr VJP]

        IRS Requests Army of Bureaucrats to Facilitate Obamacare Implementation                        By Lachlan Markay | February 16, 2011 | 15:42

                                                                                                                                            Obamacare will not be fully implemented for another three years, but  the Internal Revenue Service is already requesting money for the legion  of bureaucrats required to oversee its implementation. The IRS has  requested funds for an additional 1,054 employees in 2012 alone, hirings  that would cost taxpayers $359 million.

[Mr VJP]

[Mr VJP]

http://www.speroforum.com/a/30215/Now-we-know-what-is-in-Obamacare

Democrats expected opposition to subside as  Americans grew to appreciate its merit. But nearly a year after Obama  signed the bill, a recent Rasmussen poll of likely voters shows that 56  percent want Obamacare repealed.

Twenty-six states filed lawsuits arguing that  Obamacare violates the Constitution, specifically the mandate that  requires every American to purchase heath insurance. The now  GOP-controlled House voted 245-189 to repeal it, with more voting for  its repeal than voted for its passage.

The number of Obamacare waivers given to  companies and organizations recently passed 900. In his recent testimony  before the House, Medicare's chief actuary called it "false, more so  than true" that Obamacare will decrease medical costs.

As for Obama's assertion that if people like  their current health insurance they could keep it, the Medicare official  called this "not true in all cases."

So, what to do about "Obamacare," an  expensive, unpopular, legally dubious piece of legislation that most  voters oppose? Why, change its name, of course. Why not use an  expression that most voters hope accurately reflects its fate?

How about "toast"?

[nyantler]

The blindness and lack of understanding of what is happening in this country by people like virgil are the real reason that our government has gotten so out of hand... our politicians are elitists that have no clue about what goes on in my world and the world of the average US citizen... We need to stop political positions from becoming life long enployment for the power hungry by imposing term limits on all political positions... we need to eliminate their costly cadillac healthcare plans and taxpayer funded retirement plans... neither of which are available to the average taxpayer... we must be out of our minds to have given such power to political offices. These bastards have been misappropriating moneys for their own personal gain for far too long..

[Mr VJP]

To sum it all up....It's all about power and control, i.e. Government take over of as much of America as the dumbass electorate will allow it to take over.

Call that statement inaccurate......at your own peril!

[nyantler]

Virgil must be really searching for some facts.. haven't heard a reply yet... It will be hard to find facts to prove his view.. mainly because they don't exist

[Mr VJP]

The only thing the progressives can say about Obamacare is that it will provide healthcare to "everyone".  And that it will do.  Including illegals and new immigrants that choose not to work.

But when asked, "At what cost though?", they respond with a mealy mouthed reply like, "It doesn't matter." or "It's Free!"

:

Damn They Dumb!

And that's totally accurate!

[virgil]

VJP, once again you're boring and predictable.  More confusion between facts and opinions and more postings of the same opinions misrepresented as facts.  And, of course, all coming from sources whose positions are known to be similar to yours.  You're a bit of a one-trick pony.  If you can force yourself to read an editorial from another perspective, i've attached this one...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-m-davidson/why-support-the-imperfect_1_b_736877.html

[steve863]

Culver, the points you make would surely bring the costs of hospitalization, doctor visits, medical procedures, etc down.  You will get no arguments from me.  This would ultimately cost insurance companies less and hopefully that would trickle down to the insured people and employers where the premiums would hopefully be less also.  The BIG problem I have, and that NO one is addressing here is where the f--k were the republicans when the held the white house and both houses from 2001 thru 2007 on this issue???  Republicans are bitching up a storm on Obamacare now, yet they did JACK to address this issue in any way for 6 whole years!  Year after year they kept sweeping the healthcare problem in this country under the rug while things continued to spiral out of control.  The only thing I ever remember Bush saying about it was about possible tort reforms, which obviously by itself would not be enough and have major hurdles in getting passed as you stated.  Republicans are as much at fault for another administration coming in and trying to revamp the system completely as anyone else here.  Their refusal to address this issue has directly led to Obamacare whether some here want to admit it or not.  That is my problem with most people here blasting Obamacare without offering any alternative solutions.  I think only a moron would admit that there aren't major problems with our health system. The republicans refused to address any of it, now they are having a cow over Obamacare.  Well, what can I tell them then??  Maybe they shouldn't have sat on their thumbs when they had a chance??

[nyantler]

VJP, once again you're boring and predictable.  More confusion between facts and opinions and more postings of the same opinions misrepresented as facts.  And, of course, all coming from sources whose positions are known to be similar to yours.  You're a bit of a one-trick pony.  If you can force yourself to read an editorial from another perspective, i've attached this one...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-m-davidson/why-support-the-imperfect_1_b_736877.html

so where are the facts in that article.. the only thing I see is that the US needs some kind of healthcare reform.. which isn't really true... The US needs a health insurance cost reform.

the only other thing in the article is the same old crap about people being misinformed... well maybe you liberals are misinformed... so all you need to do iss to read the Bill... or just skim through some of the facts posted by VJP which he has even given page numbers to so you can check them out for yourself.. I did.. It was simple..

Or.. you can continue getting you non-info from the Huffungton Post or the funny pages.. each equally good for a laugh

[Mr VJP]

Virgil, that article is from one of the most left wing media organizations on the planet, The Huffington Post.

But even if it wasn't, the article is simply a regurgitation of the same old progressive mantra which it sums up in it's conclusion:

"The new Affordable Care Act deserves support because, although  imperfect, it will provide real help to many Americans and permit us to  make real progress toward a better health care system."

It gives no factual data in the article about the rules and regulations in the law, nor the actual costs to the country in the future.  It is asking Americans to support something based on blind faith to the progressive agenda and ideal, which I believe is a march towards socialism.

This article actually supports all that I have posted regarding Obamacare by not addressing any of the public's objections to it.

I thought you were questioning the facts I have posted, which you seem to think are opinions, when they are actual provisions in the law.  If you can show me where these things are not in the law, I will agree I'm incorrect.

But I will not accept this law as good for the country and the future until someone proves to me it will not effectively take from most Americans and give to many who don't deserve it, bankrupt the country and destroy healthcare as we know it, and effectively take over the US Healthcare system.

[virgil]

i posted that article to show you that there are plenty of articles and opinions on the other side of the argument.  i've never read the huffington post in my life.  it's as uselessly biased as all the sources that you use.  that was exactly my point.  you keep referring to everything that you post as 'facts'.  in fact, you've only posted opinions, paraphrases, and speculation.

[Mr VJP]

If you think so, you don't know what a fact is.  I've posted things that refer to actual items in the law.  They are not my opinions or opinions of the people who are writing about them.  They are actual items in the law that will take effect when the law does, and they are scary.

You said in your first post on this thread I was inaccurate.  You said you knew better and I was misinformed and simply repeating what I have been fed.  You claimed to know all of my information was wrong and that I should read an unbiased source.  I said show me one.  In the end, you posted The Huffington Post article.  Like you said earlier about my post, "If you posted it, you take ownership of it."

It is clear that you are one of the Obamacare supporters based on blind faith.  Now who is really spewing the propaganda they are being fed?

[virgil]

you're a broken record.  you're too busy ranting that the world is coming to an end to see that it's actually just passing you by.  at least you'll always have these forums where you can find enough people who agree with you and make you feel validated.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Culver, the points you make would surely bring the costs of hospitalization, doctor visits, medical procedures, etc down.  You will get no arguments from me.  This would ultimately cost insurance companies less and hopefully that would trickle down to the insured people and employers where the premiums would hopefully be less also.  The BIG problem I have, and that NO one is addressing here is where the f--k were the republicans when the held the white house and both houses from 2001 thru 2007 on this issue???  Republicans are bitching up a storm on Obamacare now, yet they did JACK to address this issue in any way for 6 whole years!  Year after year they kept sweeping the healthcare problem in this country under the rug while things continued to spiral out of control.  The only thing I ever remember Bush saying about it was about possible tort reforms, which obviously by itself would not be enough and have major hurdles in getting passed as you stated.  Republicans are as much at fault for another administration coming in and trying to revamp the system completely as anyone else here.  Their refusal to address this issue has directly led to Obamacare whether some here want to admit it or not.  That is my problem with most people here blasting Obamacare without offering any alternative solutions.  I think only a moron would admit that there aren't major problems with our health system. The republicans refused to address any of it, now they are having a cow over Obamacare.  Well, what can I tell them then??  Maybe they shouldn't have sat on their thumbs when they had a chance??

I agree 100% I really think the Republicans are as worthless as the Dems. I don't think they are as dangerous to our liberties or freedoms.....but they are just as much to blame for our conditions for allowing things to happen. They are all on the take and very self serving. I think that view is shared by many and it fuel the negative views on here and in the public in general. The feelings of helplessness breeds the overall general views. It does mine. It is hard to believe that all of us folks can see the down turn in the country and politicians can't.....leaves a lot thing they see it and prefer it and that also breeds the conspiracy views....no body can be that blind to not see what is going on...can they?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

you're a broken record.  you're too busy ranting that the world is coming to an end to see that it's actually just passing you by.  at least you'll always have these forums where you can find enough people who agree with you and make you feel validated.

Do you really have the inability to admitt that the post VJP made right out of te law are facts? Did you even bother to look at them and consider them.

Or is the real reason for you blind support that you ...your family...or your circles would be the ones that are benefiting from this program.

[MuzzyLoader]

Hey... Good Morning all - looks like everyone's still been busy writing emotional and rational comments while I was away.  Actually, while I was away I was recalling some of my past learnings and thought I'd share them this morning (plus I injected an opinion too... couldn't help it  :-\ ).

FACT:  The one thing that remains constant in life is Change. 

FACT:  Changing an entire system is much harder, and takes a lot longer than changing portions of a system.

FACT:  Nobody knows the entire healthcare system.  People may think they know it or understand it… but since no one has ever performed all the dependent and interdependent processes and tasks within its entire value stream – they can actually relate to only a small portion.

FACT:  Not all healthcare facilities and processes are managed the same – even though most submit administrative material to federal agencies (e.g.: Medicare, Medicaid, SSSI, etc…).

OPINION:  “Obamacare” is NOT the answer to correcting what’s wrong with America’s Healthcare System (not that I have the answer).  It is an attempt to address some known problem areas – and it grossly increases the reach of government into the daily lives of average Americans.

[virgil]

Do you really have the inability to admitt that the post VJP made right out of te law are facts? Did you even bother to look at them and consider them.

Or is the real reason for you blind support that you ...your family...or your circles would be the ones that are benefiting from this program.

Some of the bullet points that he listed are not in dispute.  The points that are paraphrased and misrepresented are the ones that imply that the government will be deciding how much doctors will earn (currently, Medicare already determines rates anyway), and that the government is going to ration care, and the nonsense referring to 'death panels'- these are not facts.  They are paraphrased summaries made by someone who opposes the legislation and posted by someone else who is in agreement with the author- that does not make them fact.  These are intentional distortions meant to rile people up. 

[Dave]

Remember Nancy Polosi said we have to vote for it so we can find out what's in the bill. Well we are all making assumptions as to what's in the bill and Virgil says we are making assumptions with no facts. I thought I say some facts quoted on this tread.  So why doesn't the administration come out and explain what exactly is in this bill? Virgil did you say you work for a hospital?

Dave

[virgil]

Virgil did you say you work for a hospital?

Yes.

[Doewhacker]

"So why doesn't the administration come out and explain what exactly is in this bill?"

Did you look at all? This is just about the myths, I'm sure you could find plenty more info on the subject.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/healthreform/myths-and-facts#healthcare-menu

[Mr VJP]

Virgil, I hope you come to realize you are in denial.  The world is not passing people by who are like minded as me, it's insidiously sneaking up on people like minded as you.

That's not a statement meant to offend, because after your posts, I truly feel you are going to be sorely disappointed in the future.

Doewhacker, I hope you realize you just referred us to a sales pitch by the very salesman who Obamacare is named after.  Talk about a biased source.  BTW a lot of that has already been proven to be a lie.  Not paying for abortions is the first falsehood....

[Dave]

Virgil did you say you work for a hospital?

Yes.

As a patient?

Dave

[Doewhacker]

Doewhacker, I hope you realize you just referred us to a sales pitch by the very salesman who Obamacare is named after.  Talk about a biased source.  BTW a lot of that has already been proven to be a lie.  Not paying for abortions is the first falsehood....

uh huh...so its a conspiracy theory then. Dave asked why the govt doesn't tell us whats in there..I provided a link where they do just that, pretty plain and simple.