HAS ANYONE SEEN THIS

[Larry]

this came out last year it's base on meetings the DEC held and the surveys

deerupdate2016.pdf

[growalot]

Well Well those were some interesting numbers...Now I see why these guys tried the end run they did....What was being said about the majority wanting???hhhmmmm 8N sits in the DEC southern tier and they clearly want any deer and any buck I choose in the southern tier Same for the northern tier....

[sailinghudson25]

Not much meat in there.........

No mention of a primitive muzzleloader season.   Also, my area in the ADK's of 6J lost antlerless muzzleloader season privledges....

[dbHunterNY]

it was from a live webcasted seminar DEC put on throughout NY.  multiple locations had a big game unit regional biologist co-hosting with Hurst the head biologist giving the talk i think.  not sure how the experience was elsewhere, as i was in attendance at DEC head quarters where he was giving it. i know he took outside questions from other regions.  it was basically meant to be a broad overview of what DEC was up to and had done lately.

antler restrictions and the surveys weren't the primary focus but one of many topics.   there was a lot of support and questions being asked about antler restrictions.  Hurst dodged very knowledgeable pro-AR comments masterfully and blatantly said any other antler restriction questions would be ignored.  Hurst did say the results of the surveys as a whole were inconclusive. he said he was disappointed so much effort was put into it only to yield no apparent outcome.  therefore there'd currently be no change and that they'd leave things voluntary as it pertains to buck harvest.  basically it wasn't to the point and you could cherry pick data to paint a perfect picture one way or the other.  otherwise any buck harvest was related to overpopulated areas with special seasons.  also mentioned the flop and reversing the reg of some WMUs have the first two weeks doe only (that wasn't even public knowledge until then).  after that seminar is when they started to develop info to put out there for voluntary idea, with push and help from sources outside the DEC i was at some of those too.

there was a lot really good stuff in there that didn't really get discussed much because it's in work in progress.  they included looking for improvements with the citizen task force process.  AVID software as a citizen science program that's basically allowing your average joe to conduct a browse survey.  suburban and urban deer population management. for example, ithaca special season was discussed.  most hunters brought in to participate couldn't connect on any doe as intended, yet one hunter managed to take 10.  these topics have real meat and could yield huge improvements for DEC deer management.  i hope the stuff doesn't disappear and die especially AVID.  i did stay after and talked with Hurst off the record.  wasn't time or info to get into this stuff, unfortunately.  convo we had was more focused around deer stuff i'm involved with and young buck protection, as it relates to DEC. 

[dbHunterNY]

23 hours ago, growalot said:

Well Well those were some interesting numbers...Now I see why these guys tried the end run they did....What was being said about the majority wanting???hhhmmmm 8N sits in the DEC southern tier and they clearly want any deer and any buck I choose in the southern tier Same for the northern tier....

they aren't interesting numbers.... they're the same numbers that have been brought up.  cherry picked to push a point one way or the other.  it makes no difference.  Hurst gave this presentation and said the results as a whole were inconclusive, hence the map showing "no change".

[dbHunterNY]

i did find one piece of data that was hard to accept with any significance.  buck to doe ratio was something that was used during the webinar to justify use of the words "no biological need". DEC feels we have a 1:1.7 buck to doe ratio.  i have to question where that came from and wonder how much of a factor the huge adirondack's had in that.  i'd bet it's very much not the case in many areas of the southern zone, even with natural correction of a preseason ratio, if you understand what i mean by that.

[Buckstopshere]

6 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

i did find one piece of data that was hard to accept with any significance.  buck to doe ratio was something that was used during the webinar to justify use of the words "no biological need". DEC feels we have a 1:1.7 buck to doe ratio.  i have to question where that came from and wonder how much of a factor the huge adirondack's had in that.  i'd bet it's very much not the case in many areas of the southern zone, even with natural correction of a preseason ratio, if you understand what i mean by that.

From my trail cams here in Allegany County, I would say that the ratio of 1:1 is pretty close...that is if you count button bucks as bucks...which they should be. So here at least we currently have nearly...give or take a bit, depending on what hill you are on, a 1:1 ratio of bucks to does.

[dbHunterNY]

1 hour ago, Buckstopshere said:

From my trail cams here in Allegany County, I would say that the ratio of 1:1 is pretty close...that is if you count button bucks as bucks...which they should be. So here at least we currently have nearly...give or take a bit, depending on what hill you are on, a 1:1 ratio of bucks to does.

it's always interesting to here observations compared to the DEC calculated ratio i think are largely based on harvest.  based on year round observation and trail cams here in this WMU i'd say ours is definitely higher and maybe somewhere around 3-4 doe per buck before the season.  based on harvest data alone it's over 2 doe per buck, plus out this way people seem pretty reluctant to shoot doe.  on top of those numbers are preference points odds of getting a DMP and just for resident 1st choice.  after that it's nothing.  each season it's skewed pretty hard and then naturally corrected with each fawn crop.  many out this way claim insanely high during season, many say over 1:10.  who knows if they're missing a buck or two in the bushes but starting each season so high the bucks have to be getting creamed off pretty good during the season.

[Larry]

Another believer of the 1to1 buck to doe myth.

An over abundant of males is detrimental to spices survival

[Buckstopshere]

Not saying that 1:1 is optimal...even for "species survival...let alone spices survival ." Just one man's observation taken from years of running numerous trail cams in different spots in my neck of the woods just north of the Pa. border. New York has such varied terrain, varied land use patterns, different topography, and hunter habits/preferences that it only stands to reason that with buck-to-doe ratios all over the place statewide, any umbrella policy will have different results. For years now, in our DMUs we only get one antlerless permit.

[growalot]

Quote

New York has such varied terrain, varied land use patterns, different topography, and hunter habits/preferences that it only stands to reason that with buck-to-doe ratios all over the place statewide, any umbrella policy will have different results. For years now, in our DMUs we only get one antlerless permit.

Yep pretty sure that glided right over several heads...

[Grizz1219]

I can tell you in 4Z, the buck doe ratio based on my cameras running all summer and fall show a much higher buck to doe ratio... more along the lines of 1 buck to 7-8 does... But we are not given any doe permits in 4Z, no buck is safe during rifle season.. 

[dbHunterNY]

26 minutes ago, Grizz1219 said:

I can tell you in 4Z, the buck doe ratio based on my cameras running all summer and fall show a much higher buck to doe ratio... more along the lines of 1 buck to 7-8 does... But we are not given any doe permits in 4Z, no buck is safe during rifle season.. 

seems to be the consensus for parts of region 4.  aside from albany, not sure how some neighboring WMU can have tag allocations so vastly different.  influences buck hunting a lot.

[Grizz1219]

42 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

seems to be the consensus for parts of region 4.  aside from albany, not sure how some neighboring WMU can have tag allocations so vastly different.  influences buck hunting a lot.

Yeah, it's tough, I run cameras for months before the season opener and run them during the season.. I pick out the 4 oldest bucks I see and target them... but I can't tell you how many does walk by before I see 1 buck... The most we've seen in an afternoon hunting is 32 deer, 30 does, 1 spike and 1 unicorn... I'm not saying a few bucks were bringing up the rear after dark... just saying we have a lot of does and no DMP tags for 4Z... Sad.... I completely understand why someone would shoot the first legal buck during rifle season... 

[Buckstopshere]

47 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

seems to be the consensus for parts of region 4.  aside from albany, not sure how some neighboring WMU can have tag allocations so vastly different.  influences buck hunting a lot.

Well ... as to why two adjacent WMU's have different antlerless allocations is probably based on, to a large part, the DEC's historical assessment of the kill pattern of the previous year's antlerless take. For instance, take for example two of the WMU's I hunt, 9x and 9y. You can be almost assured of NOT getting even one antlerless permit in 9x, while right next door in 9y, we always get one. Why? even though the cover type is about the same? My guess is that in the relatively more rural...hunting camp intensive 9x, shooting does with archery and muzzleloader...venison in the freezer is maybe a bit higher on the priority scale than in 9y overall for one thing. Also there are more safety zones, sanctuaries for deer where landowners do not allow any hunting or access during hunting season. And they don't let hunters push the deer during the gun season. So the result is a a higher residual doe population in 9y, per square mile than in 9x. Therefore always the High designation for the first anltlerless permit, where in 9x it seems to be always Low. That is just one specific example. There are about 100 DMUs across the state, with all types of differences between neighboring ones. I can not speak for the Albany area because I have never studied it or hunted it. But there must be differences between the DMUs to explain the differences in allocations.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Buckstopshere

[dbHunterNY]

On 4/13/2017 at 0:26 PM, Buckstopshere said:

Well ... as to why two adjacent WMU's have different antlerless allocations is probably based on, to a large part, the DEC's historical assessment of the kill pattern of the previous year's antlerless take. For instance, take for example two of the WMU's I hunt, 9x and 9y. You can be almost assured of NOT getting even one antlerless permit in 9x, while right next door in 9y, we always get one. Why? even though the cover type is about the same? My guess is that in the relatively more rural...hunting camp intensive 9x, shooting does with archery and muzzleloader...venison in the freezer is maybe a bit higher on the priority scale than in 9y overall for one thing. Also there are more safety zones, sanctuaries for deer where landowners do not allow any hunting or access during hunting season. And they don't let hunters push the deer during the gun season. So the result is a a higher residual doe population in 9y, per square mile than in 9x. Therefore always the High designation for the first anltlerless permit, where in 9x it seems to be always Low. That is just one specific example. There are about 100 DMUs across the state, with all types of differences between neighboring ones. I can not speak for the Albany area because I have never studied it or hunted it. But there must be differences between the DMUs to explain the differences in allocations.

Well some i get for example Albany is a city and 4J that's bow only.  The surrounding WMU that wraps around it to west is high for DMPs but that makes sense.  Others seem to be a little off for many reasons i'm sure that are compounded into something more significant.  i've been told that buck take objective being met or not met has some influence.  it doesn't change very often and is largely based on agenda or stake of the Citizen Task Force.  Person A wants almost all the deer shot, person B barely wants any, and person C is basically arbitrarily coming up with a number that's a little different than the current one.  I've talked to people on them and it needs work.  At this webinar it was a topic and DEC said they are working on improving that "system".

[Grizz1219]

I know I fill my doe tags during archery and BP, and will fill my reg. season tag on a doe during BP if I don't see a buck on my "hit list"... But I hunt with a lot of guys that will rarely if ever shoot a doe no matter what... Crazy to me... 

[Doc]

15 hours ago, Grizz1219 said:

I know I fill my doe tags during archery and BP, and will fill my reg. season tag on a doe during BP if I don't see a buck on my "hit list"... But I hunt with a lot of guys that will rarely if ever shoot a doe no matter what... Crazy to me... 

I think a lot of these guys that won't shoot does simply don't like venison. They don't want to go through all the mess and effort just to harvest meat that they don't even like the taste of. They become "head hunters" for big racks.

[dbHunterNY]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

I think a lot of these guys that won't shoot does simply don't like venison. They don't want to go through all the mess and effort just to harvest meat that they don't even like the taste of. They become "head hunters" for big racks.

i don't think that's what he's saying based on his other posts.  i think he's saying a lot of guys will shoot any buck regardless of rack size but wont ever shoot a doe even if the opportunity is there often.

in the area i hunt before we started a QDM co-op that was the mindset for the area.  still to this day there's hunters who will watch 20 doe in a field and not shoot one despite having access to co-op DMAP tags.  before the co-op they'd wait all day with those doe in front of them for a shot at any legal buck that walked out.  size didn't matter.  it could've been a spike.  crazy too as they acknowledge some doe could be taken and not hurt a thing.  yet they'll give their tag to someone else to fill, who was willing and hasn't filled their legal limit yet.  they seem to be slightly on the older side with the long standing build up the herd mindset.  old habits die hard i guess.

[Grizz1219]

Actually you are both right.... I know guys that won't shoot anything less than a 6 pt and others that shoot the first legal buck that gets close enough, but neither shoot does... 

[suffolk1921a]

Do the guys who hunt only bucks apply for DMP's?

[Buckstopshere]

11 hours ago, suffolk1921a said:

Do the guys who hunt only bucks apply for DMP's?

I hate to admit that I have known hunters who got DMU permits and refused to use them. These guys were stubborn and wanted to get them so that nobody else could use them. These hunters are firmly against shooting does, believing that the more does, the more bucks produced for them to shoot and also the more does would bring in bucks to their hunting property during the rut. Hunting brings out the worst and the best in people. In this case, the worst...greed. This was back when the DMU permit did not cost any more.  But it probably still goes on with those guys as a $10 fee does not even make them blink.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Buckstopshere

[dbHunterNY]

i'd think a resident landowner with higher probability or someone that's got lifetime tags, that isn't spending the $10 each year make up most of that group. for places here in region 4 you'd otherwise end up spending $30 over the course of a few years just to protect one deer.  seems silly when you factor in DEC hands out more tags with the assumption that % filled stays pretty constant year to year.  if you were to look into it you'd find DMP success rate (reported or recorded) is only 15%.  for DMAPs given to applicants of co-ops or larger landowners you're at around 50%.  it's hard to think someone is going to pay the fee, fill out the application every 3 years, and then fill out a harvest report every year just to burn those tags.  i could be wrong though.

you are right that it does happen and that's really too bad.  ....it is miss informed greed, even if on a smaller scale.  i'd bet more people get DMPs so they can take a doe during gun season and not be bound by seasons and implement to use.  they may be getting one regardless of any opportunity they think they might have.  another reason why i think its fine to pay for privileges to hunt each season but you should be able to fill any tag you hold as soon as you're able.

[fasteddie]

In my opinion , I think that hunters that won't shoot does is because they think it will hurt the population of the herd . No doubt , they probably have the mind set that shooting a buck is a Macho thing . 

People that know I hunt often ask how my season went . On a couple occasions last year I was asked if I got a buck . I said no but I got 4 doe . Both guys gave the look like loser , you only shot doe and no buck . I told one of them that I have plenty of venison in the freezer and ask if he have any of the meat left from the Spike that he shot . That shut him up .

Another guy that lives close to me has a Christmas tree farm . He and his neighbor have a combined total of 540 acres that they hunt together . No one else can hunt the property . They will only shoot bucks with 8 points or more . 

[Larry]

I hunted on some land where i could only shoot bucks and no does any kids can shoot does. Then the main property I hunt the guy that owns the land below me only shoots big buck and no does. I pass on small bucks  but a fat doe will get waxed.