New scope

[Grizz1219]

1 hour ago, wildcat junkie said:

And wheat if your load is 200fps less Mv than specified and what about the distance of the scope above the bore axis.?

If you are hand loading and know the ballistics of it... it would be a simple math equation to dial it in.. 

[Grizz1219]

And in terms of the other parts of that... It's all based on the load and sighted in dead on at 100 yards... Not sure why you bashed it from the start if you knew nothing about it... It is accurate.. As stated I used it to shoot a Gemsbok at 309 yards, a black wildebeest at 290 yds and a Blesbok at 260 yds... If you want American made I am sure Leopold makes one, but the technology is there, it is VERY accurate and works perfectly.. takes the idea of hold over and makes it so you aim dead on with the BDC...  I found it VERY helpful for long range shooting... 

[wildcat junkie]

21 hours ago, Grizz1219 said:

So you are saying you knew nothing about them but still wrote "Smoke and mirrors"??? You go to the website and select what scope, what caliber, gauge etc.. Then select the load you are using... So to answer your question, it does customize it to the load... That's why I suggested it and recommend it.. 

It appears that I have a better grasp of the technology than you do. Does the website factor in the distance of the scope above the bore C/L?

21 hours ago, wildcat junkie said:

And what if your load is 200fps less Mv than specified and what about the distance of the scope above the bore axis.?

 

20 hours ago, Grizz1219 said:

If you are hand loading and know the ballistics of it... it would be a simple math equation to dial it in.. 

If you think that "factory" ammo will shoot with consistent Mv out of various factory rifles chambered in the same cartridge, you have obviously not spent any time shooting factory ammo over a chronograph from various (different make/model) rifles.

So regardless, in any situation, the rifle/load in question must be shot over a chronograph and trajectory calculated from real world results. You must them mentally retain the various yardages that the additional BDC cross hairs will be at zero.

But, why can't I do the same thing with my duplex reticle if I know how much the duplex opening subtends?

Let's use a Leupold  3-9X40 duplex reticle for instance. With any standard Leupold duplex 3-9x40/50 reticle @ 9x, the duplex opening will subtend 6.1" @ 100 yds, or for our purposes, 3 MOA above and below the horizontal crosshair.

Let's use "Quickload" trajectory tables for the chronographed loads from my 8mm-06 Ackley Improved, driving a Speer .323 200gr Hotcore bullet at 2900 fps, with a VX-2 3-9x40 Leupold scope mounted 1.7" above the bore C/L sighted in for a + or - 3" MPBR. The trajectory will be 2.6" high @ 100yds, zeroed @ 246yds, (.2" low @ 250yds) and 3" low at 286yds, (4.2" low @ 300yds) and 9.9" low @ 350yds.

The top of the duplex opening will be 3" above the horizontal crosshair @ 100yds, within .4" of the bullet POI

The horizontal crosshair will be .2" above the bullet path @ 250 yds, within .2" of the PO!

The bottom of the duplex opening will be 10.5" below the horizontal crosshair @ 350 yds, within .6" of POI.

So lets just use our duplex reticle as a BDC rehicle shall we? All of the values in the image below will be less than 3/4" from POI. (Image is not "to scale")

 

So, what's the real world advantage of a BDC for 95% of hunters, especially in NY State? How often will the average hunter take a shot beyond 350yds and is he capable of holding steady on target beyond that range on a"field rest" in the 1st place?

If I want to take a shot @ 400yds with my combo, all I have to do ius hold the bottom duplex opening 7" high. I can still hold "on hair", high on a Whitetail's shoulder an get a solid hit in the vitals. I can also use some quick and easy mental calculation to estimate range fairly accurately in a pinch.

The "smoke and mirrors" is referring to the misconception that 99% of the potential market's perception of just what a BDC can do. Before the purchase (and sadly, in many cases after) many will think that they can go out the day before season, sight in @ 100yds and be able to blast away at a deer 400yds across a hayfield and have a god chance of making a clean kill.

[chas0218]

22 minutes ago, wildcat junkie said:

It appears that I have a better grasp of the technology than you do. Does the website factor in the distance of the scope above the bore C/L?

Yes it does.

[chas0218]

30 minutes ago, wildcat junkie said:

It appears that I have a better grasp of the technology than you do. Does the website factor in the distance of the scope above the bore C/L?

 

If you think that "factory" ammo will shoot with consistent Mv out of various factory rifles chambered in the same cartridge, you have obviously not spent any time shooting factory ammo over a chronograph from various (different make/model) rifles.

So regardless, in any situation, the rifle/load in question must be shot over a chronograph and trajectory calculated from real world results. You must them mentally retain the various yardages that the additional BDC cross hairs will be at zero.

But, why can't I do the same thing with my duplex reticle if I know how much the duplex opening subtends?

Let's use a Leupold  3-9X40 duplex reticle for instance. With any standard Leupold duplex 3-9x40/50 reticle @ 9x, the duplex opening will subtend 6.1" @ 100 yds, or for our purposes, 3 MOA above and below the horizontal crosshair.

Let's use "Quickload" trajectory tables for the chronographed loads from my 8mm-06 Ackley Improved, driving a Speer .323 200gr Hotcore bullet at 2900 fps, with a VX-2 3-9x40 Leupold scope mounted 1.7" above the bore C/L sighted in for a + or - 3" MPBR. The trajectory will be 2.6" high @ 100yds, zeroed @ 246yds, (.2" low @ 250yds) and 3" low at 286yds, (4.2" low @ 300yds) and 9.9" low @ 350yds.

The top of the duplex opening will be 3" above the horizontal crosshair @ 100yds, within .4" of the bullet POI

The horizontal crosshair will be .2" above the bullet path @ 250 yds, within .2" of the PO!

The bottom of the duplex opening will be 10.5" below the horizontal crosshair @ 350 yds, within .6" of POI.

So lets just use our duplex reticle as a BDC rehicle shall we? All of the values in the image below will be less than 3/4" from POI. (Image is not "to scale")

 

So, what's the real world advantage of a BDC for 95% of hunters, especially in NY State? How often will the average hunter take a shot beyond 350yds and is he capable of holding steady on target beyond that range on a"field rest" in the 1st place?

If I want to take a shot @ 400yds with my combo, all I have to do ius hold the bottom duplex opening 7" high. I can still hold "on hair", high on a Whitetail's shoulder an get a solid hit in the vitals. I can also use some quick and easy mental calculation to estimate range fairly accurately in a pinch.

The "smoke and mirrors" is referring to the misconception that 99% of the potential market's perception of just what a BDC can do. Before the purchase (and sadly, in many cases after) many will think that they can go out the day before season, sight in @ 100yds and be able to blast away at a deer 400yds across a hayfield and have a god chance of making a clean kill.

If looking at a ballistic chart for my .243 and similarly size cartridges minus the magnums there is a lot of unaccounted drop between 250 and 350 yards. My .243 for instance drops 9" from 250 and 350 just guessing where I would hold for 300 would have me miss the deer vs using the BDC where the bottom of the 1st bdc circle puts me at 292 yards.

My .270 has 10" of drop, same deal.

Edited November 1, 2017 by chas0218

[chas0218]

Basically the BDC is another version of the Mil-Dot. The Mil-dot reticle will do the same thing the BDC does or vise versa except the mil-dot allows wind drift calculations.

[wildcat junkie]

49 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Basically the BDC is another version of the Mil-Dot. The Mil-dot reticle will do the same thing the BDC does or vise versa except the mil-dot allows wind drift calculations.

The "mil-dot" does not claim to have programmed ballistic drop compensation. It is merely a calibrated reticle that can be used to do such calculations.

[wildcat junkie]

1 hour ago, chas0218 said:

If looking at a ballistic chart for my .243 and similarly size cartridges minus the magnums there is a lot of unaccounted drop between 250 and 350 yards. My .243 for instance drops 9" from 250 and 350 just guessing where I would hold for 300 would have me miss the deer vs using the BDC where the bottom of the 1st bdc circle puts me at 292 yards.

My .270 has 10" of drop, same deal.

The drop for my combo is 4.2" @ 300yds so I would merely hold the crosshairs near the top of the vitals for a solid hit.

Your 270, IF it sends a 130gr polymer tipped bullet out of the muzzle @ 3100 fps, should be able to shoot + or- 3" MPBR to about 310 yds. Sighted in 2 1/2" high @ 100yds, it would be 3" high at 150, zero somewhere beyond 250 yds and 3" low around 310 yds. That was how my 280 with a 140gr Hornady Interbond @ 3150 fps shot.

 

You can't rely on charts without knowing the ACTUAL Mv.

[wildcat junkie]

1 hour ago, chas0218 said:

If looking at a ballistic chart for my .243 and similarly size cartridges minus the magnums there is a lot of unaccounted drop between 250 and 350 yards. My .243 for instance drops 9" from 250 and 350 just guessing where I would hold for 300 would have me miss the deer vs using the BDC where the bottom of the 1st bdc circle puts me at 292 yards.

My .270 has 10" of drop, same deal.

The problem is, you are sighted in @ 100yds with the crosshair. By allowing the trajectory to arc above the line of sight 3" at mid range, your drop will less than 3" below LOS @ 300yds.

 

For most non magnum cartridge pushing +.400 BC bullets at around 3000 fps, somewhere around 2 1/2" high @ 100yds will achieve this.

Edited November 1, 2017 by wildcat junkie

[chas0218]

1 hour ago, wildcat junkie said:

The problem is, you are sighted in @ 100yds with the crosshair. By allowing the trajectory to arc above the line of sight 3" at mid range, your drop will less than 3" below LOS @ 300yds.

 

For most non magnum cartridge pushing +.400 BC bullets at around 3000 fps, somewhere around 2 1/2" high @ 100yds will achieve this.

I get it, and you're right with your method it would work but in the heat of the moment unless you shoot often at various yardages with your method someone could easily botch the shot. I prefer to have a line, dot, circle that I know is a set yardage I can just put on the animal and be done. Also the circle is easier to see in lower light than where the vertical line of the reticle goes from skinny to thick. I guess it is all about what you're used to doing.

Before the BDC and Mil Dot your method is all they had for referencing longer distances.

Edited November 1, 2017 by chas0218

[Buckmaster7600]

I get it, and you're right with your method it would work but in the heat of the moment unless you shoot often at various yardages with your method someone could easily botch the shot. I prefer to have a line, dot, circle that I know is a set yardage I can just put on the animal and be done. Also the circle is easier to see in lower light than where the vertical line of the reticle goes from skinny to thick. I guess it is all about what you're used to doing.
Before the BDC and Mil Dot your method is all they had for referencing longer distances.

Incorrect, "doping" has been around for a long time and is still the most effective and accurate method for long range shooting.


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[chas0218]

26 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Incorrect, "doping" has been around for a long time and is still the most effective and accurate method for long range shooting.


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Vs turrets and a BDC it is most effective?

[Buckmaster7600]

Vs turrets and a BDC it is most effective?

"Doping" and turrets are the same thing essentially.


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[chas0218]

When you are talking effective you mean most accurate method? In a hunting situation I think effective would mean quickest  with the least amount of movement. A buddy of mine has spent a good amount of money on his Remington 700 with a nice leupold vx4 and turrets but for what it takes to range adjust and shoot there is a considerable more amount of time needed compared to just holding over.

[dbHunterNY]

http://quigleyford.com/
These guys actually take the load and rifle specific data and do custom BDC for the combination. Pretty darn good glass based on the ones I have looked through. Caliber, Grain, Ballistic Coefficient,  actual muzzle velocity are provided and custom etched 

Someday I'll have one too. I'll have to add those to the list for this coming spring banquet. Every time I see banquet goers bidding or trying to win it like it's Christmas I get a guilt ridden and back down lettinf them have it. lol

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[Culvercreek hunt club]

2 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

Someday I'll have one too. I'll have to add those to the list for this coming spring banquet. Every time I see banquet goers bidding or trying to win it like it's Christmas I get a guilt ridden and back down lettinf them have it. lol

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

Damned good price compared to list. 

[dbHunterNY]

Damned good price compared to list. 

I'd eat that cheese and rice ALL day .....with wild game of course!

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[wildcat junkie]

6 hours ago, chas0218 said:

 

 

6 hours ago, chas0218 said:

I get it, and you're right with your method it would work but in the heat of the moment unless you shoot often at various yardages with your method someone could easily botch the shot. I prefer to have a line, dot, circle that I know is a set yardage I can just put on the animal and be done. Also the circle is easier to see in lower light than where the vertical line of the reticle goes from skinny to thick. I guess it is all about what you're used to doing.

Before the BDC and Mil Dot your method is all they had for referencing longer distances.

 

6 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Incorrect, "doping" has been around for a long time and is still the most effective and accurate method for long range shooting.


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In the last 16 years, I have shot upwards of 20 deer from my tripod @ yardages from 75 to 280 yds (most @ 240yds or beyond) with 4 different rifle/cartridge combos ranging from my 8x57 @ 2800 fps to my 280 @ 3150 fps. All with 3-9 variable scopes with duplex reticles, all sighted in for MPBR of + or - 3".

"In the heat of the moment", I have never held other than the vertical center of the lungs and I have never missed and have only had to shoot 1 deer twice when I pulled the shot left and a bit high @ 240yds. The bullet broke the buck's spine and he crawled about 5 yds as I walked the distance before putting a finishing shot through his shoulder. The interesting thing about all that is that the one shot where I did shoot high was exactly at the scope's zero range.Go figure huh?

Seems like "in the heat of the moment, + or - 3" MPBR and a simple duplex reticle works pretty well. No decisions, no multiple crosshars to get confused over, just put the crosshair in the center of the vitals and squeeze the trigger. And as far as low light? The duplex reticle was designed for fast target acquisition in low light and/or brush with a fine intersecting crosshair in the middle for fine targeting when  appropriate.

In the unlikely situation that a mature buck does not fill the (vertical) gap in the duplex @ 9x, I would know that the animal is beyond my MPBR and I can then use the top of the bottom post as an aim point and use "Kentucky windage" to adjust. It works, and it works under pressure.

Edited November 2, 2017 by wildcat junkie

[Buckmaster7600]

When you are talking effective you mean most accurate method? In a hunting situation I think effective would mean quickest  with the least amount of movement. A buddy of mine has spent a good amount of money on his Remington 700 with a nice leupold vx4 and turrets but for what it takes to range adjust and shoot there is a considerable more amount of time needed compared to just holding over.

Most long range over 250yds aren't a "fast shooting scenario." By far the most accurate and effective method in long range shooting is doping the scope. That being said I won't shoot a deer that far because I don't want to. My long range shooting days are long over. If I can't hold my crosshairs on hair I am not shooting.


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[wildcat junkie]

1 hour ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Most long range over 250yds aren't a "fast shooting scenario." By far the most accurate and effective method in long range shooting is doping the scope. That being said I won't shoot a deer that far because I don't want to. My long range shooting days are long over. If I can't hold my crosshairs on hair I am not shooting.


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I can "hold on hair" to at least 350yds on a mature whitetail. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by wildcat junkie

[wildcat junkie]

21 hours ago, chas0218 said:

If looking at a ballistic chart for my .243 and similarly size cartridges minus the magnums there is a lot of unaccounted drop between 250 and 350 yards. My .243 for instance drops 9" from 250 and 350 just guessing where I would hold for 300 would have me miss the deer vs using the BDC where the bottom of the 1st bdc circle puts me at 292 yards.

My .270 has 10" of drop, same deal.

 

19 hours ago, wildcat junkie said:

The problem is, you are sighted in @ 100yds with the crosshair. By allowing the trajectory to arc above the line of sight 3" at mid range, your drop will less than 3" below LOS @ 300yds.

 

For most non magnum cartridge pushing +.400 BC bullets at around 3000 fps, somewhere around 2 1/2" high @ 100yds will achieve this.

Below is the trajectory for a 130gr 270 Nosler Ballistic tip @ 3100 fps Mv. Zeroed for 265 yds (2 1'2" high @ 100 yds) it is 3" high @ the highest point and 3" low @ 310 yds  (2 1/4" low @ 300 yds) This zero makes center of vitals hold viable out to 310yds and would still allow "hold on hair" (top of the withers) to 390 yds and still hit vertical center of the vitals. (6" above the brisket on an animal that is 18" from brisket to withers.)

Note that a 6 MOA Duplex gap will subtend 18" @ 300yds when @ 9x., making quick estimation on whether you can use vertical center of vitals hold or need to hold over. If a mature NY Whitetail buck fills the gap @ 9x, put the crosshairs vertical center of vitals an squeeze the trigger.  

Scope is mounted 1.7" above the bore C/L

Now, we look at the same bluet/Mv zeroed @ 100 yds. The bullet is 3" low @ 210 yds and 10" low @ 300yds. This clearly shows the error in sighting in  a cartridge capable of long range shooting @ 100 yds

Scope is mounted 1.7" above the bore C/L

Edited November 2, 2017 by wildcat junkie

[chas0218]

18 minutes ago, wildcat junkie said:

 

Below is the trajectory for a 130gr 270 Nosler Ballistic tip @ 3100 fps Mv. Zeroed for 265 yds (2 1'2" high @ 100 yds) it is 3" high @ the highest point and 3" low @ 310 yds  (2 1/4" low @ 300 yds) This zero makes center of vitals hold viable out to 310yds and would still allow "hold on hair" (top of the withers) to 390 yds and still hit vertical center of the vitals. (6" above the brisket on an animal that is 18" from brisket to withers.)

Note that a 6 MOA Duplex gap will subtend 18" @ 300yds, making quick estimation on whether you can use vertical center of vitals hold or need to hold over.

Scope is mounted 1.7" above the bore C/L

Now, we look at the same bluet/Mv zeroed @ 100 yds. The bullet is 3" low @ 210 yds and 10" low @ 300yds. This clearly shows the error in sighting in  a cartridge capable of long range shooting @ 100 yds

Scope is mounted 1.7" above the bore C/L

Makes perfect sense, I get it. I understood what you were saying the first time. I wouldn't mind doing this but the scopes I already have are BDC. I will give it a shot and see how I like it when I get that 7mm-08. Are you using a program for the charts, I would like to get charts like this instead of table.

Edited November 2, 2017 by chas0218

[Grizz1219]

Wildcat.... Great info.. but remember, the question was about a shotgun... They aren't flat shooting... to try and hold over a target a set # of inches is crazy especially if you can buy a scope that allows you to do what you do with your rifles, hold on target... I was using my rifle shots with the BDC to point out that you can hold dead on with one of these scopes so you will be more accurate at a longer range.. Was not trying to say anything remotely close to the idea your system doesn't work... You do far more than the average hunter in terms of knowing the abilities of the cartridge you are shooting.. Would love to sit and shoot with you one day for sure... and sit and reload with you as well.. I used to do a ton but kids, work just dragged me away from my bench.. Hoping to get back in and would love to pick your brain when I do for info.. 

[wildcat junkie]

36 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Makes perfect sense, I get it. I understood what you were saying the first time. I wouldn't mind doing this but the scopes I already have are BDC. I will give it a shot and see how I like it when I get that 7mm-08. Are you using a program for the charts, I would like to get charts like this instead of table.

I am using charts from "Quickload/Quicktarget", an interior/exterior ballistics program. If you give me chronograph MV and the BC of the bullet you use along with the C/L of the scope above bore C/L, I can run the numbers and generate a custom chart for your particular combo. Factory ammo loaded with aftermarket bullets, Hornady, Speer, Sierrra, Nosler, etc will have the BC loaded in the program. Winchester, Remington, Federal bullets will not .

Chronograph should be set up 15" from the muzzle and I will correct for Mv.

 

Here is a chart for a (warm) load I developed for a Savage Axis II in 7mm-08 @ 2912 fps with a Nosler 140gr BT. Be advised that in the typical 22" barrel of factory rifles chambers in 7mm-08, Mv will be at least 100 fps slower with factory ammunition in that bullet weight.

 

2.6" high @ 100yds gets to just shy of 300yds before the bullet drops to 3" low. "Hold on hair" (12" low) will be about 275 yds.

Edited November 2, 2017 by wildcat junkie

[wildcat junkie]

15 minutes ago, Grizz1219 said:

Wildcat.... Great info.. but remember, the question was about a shotgun... They aren't flat shooting... to try and hold over a target a set # of inches is crazy especially if you can buy a scope that allows you to do what you do with your rifles, hold on target... I was using my rifle shots with the BDC to point out that you can hold dead on with one of these scopes so you will be more accurate at a longer range.. Was not trying to say anything remotely close to the idea your system doesn't work... You do far more than the average hunter in terms of knowing the abilities of the cartridge you are shooting.. Would love to sit and shoot with you one day for sure... and sit and reload with you as well.. I used to do a ton but kids, work just dragged me away from my bench.. Hoping to get back in and would love to pick your brain when I do for info.. 

All that is true, but with shotguns, the variables of MV will be even more critical. In the hands of a knowledgeable shooter that has run his load across a chronograph it would be a valuable tool. Problem is, is the hands of the typical "Bubba" that buys the scope a week before season, runs out to the 100 yd range using the supplied "charts" with factory Mv data and sights in without verifying at longer ranges, it is a recipe for wounded game.

With "muzzle loaders" it is even more fraught with problems. That being said, IMO, having hunted with a  ML since 1976 killing deer at distance exceeding 150 yds with a .235 round ball & open iron sight and 2 on the run with the same projectile out of a flintlock, "modern" optics have no place on a muzzle loader.