Do You Support Crossbow Full Inclusion into the NY Archery Season?

[growalot]

The problem I see in getting inclusion is $$$$$...I think this every time I haven't shot a deer in regular bow and go to buy the ML tag...I have a ML but rarely use it and by ML season, I'm holiday busy and tired or tags are filled. This is why I have only the LT regular and bow privileges. So I really try avoiding that 15.00 out put, but alas... So how many are like me and how many gun only hunters are putting their 15.00 in the coffers in order to get a crack at a archery season buck with out the hassle of a course. Many that would never ML hunt anyways. Until they figure out how to recoup any of the lost Cash from ppl like me they won't do it. Also remember they are allowed out in the field during all of archery  without any need for a ML tag...for they are legal for everything else except migratory birds... As many of you have said, not enough officers to consider any type of real enforcement. They pigeonholed themselves with the way they categorized them

Edited November 2, 2017 by growalot

[WNYBuckHunter]

13 minutes ago, growalot said:

The problem I see in getting inclusion is $$$$$...I think this every time I haven't shot a deer in regular bow and go to buy the ML tag...I have a ML but rarely use it and by ML season, I'm holiday busy and tired or tags are filled. This is why I have only the LT regular and bow privileges. So I really try avoiding that 15.00 out put, but alas... So how many are like me and how many gun only hunters are putting their 15.00 in the coffers in order to get a crack at a archery season buck with out the hassle of a course. Many that would never ML hunt anyways. Until they figure out how to recoup any of the lost Cash from ppl like me they won't do it. Also remember they are allowed out in the field during all of archery  without any need for a ML tag...for they are legal for everything else except migratory birds... As many of you have said, not enough officers to consider any type of real enforcement. They pigeonholed themselves with the way they categorized them

How would they lose $? They would just make it so you have to buy the archery privilege if it was fully included. Either that or they will add another privilege specifically for crossbow.

DEC wants full inclusion, they have made that clear on multiple occasions.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

8 hours ago, Jmny said:

I believe we crossbow hunters are doing ourselves a disservice to push for more than the option to have use of crossbow be inclusive for the entire archery season.

i believe complicating the request with additional request will only slow or deter a change to include crossbows use in all of  archery season.   I have no pity for any hunter or manufacture that has bought or produced a Hunting instrument that doesn’t fall within framework of some states limitations.

First,  why would a company invest in a crossbow the exceeds the regulations of many states?  Apparently they believed they would appeal to more than hunters.  And why would a hunter in New York purchase a crossbow in excess of 200 lb draw weight?  Or narrower than 17 inches wide?

These are not my problems, I’m just an older handicapped hunter that, if I choose to continue archery hunting will have to employ the crossbow.  The important aspect of getting the crossbow to be inclusive for the entire archery season is allowing us crossbow hunters ( some older or individuals with limitations ) to continue to spend out later years enjoying the sport/ activities we have over our life span.  

I believe it is a mistake to expand our request to anything more than making crossbows inclusive for the entire archery season. 

Let those misguided companies that developed crossbows outside the limitations of some states, spend their own time and money for changes in limitations. Or suffer the consequences of their mistakes.

i believe the crossbow will eventually be inclusive the whole archery season, but that time frame could be set back many years by representing those misguided hunters and manufactures that made and purchased those weapons.

 

 

 

 

I just checked every state that the map posted earlier shows full inclusion. I see power stroke Minimum requirements  and draw poundage minimum requirements (all of which a all modern crossbows meet. Unless you can find something that differs from what I have read, NO OTHER STATE with inclusion has a width restriction or a maximum draw weight that I can find.  What states have restrictions that would make these crossbows illegal to use? 

[growalot]

4 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Until they figure out how to recoup any of the lost Cash from ppl like me

I don't know why that quoted like that...but I was specific in stating ppl like me also lets be honest here there are a whole lot of guys with out ML tags hunting with a cross bow during archery season now...it's just not openly talked about. Well occasionally someone here mentions it. EVERY single archery hunter that bought his privilege to archery hunt...but also owns a cross bow  ..HAS to purchase a ML tag If they do not ML...A lot of ppl  do not ML

[Culvercreek hunt club]

3 minutes ago, growalot said:

I don't know why that quoted like that...but I was specific in stating ppl like me also lets be honest here there are a whole lot of guys with out ML tags hunting with a cross bow during archery season now...it's just not openly talked about. Well occasionally someone here mentions it. EVERY single archery hunter that bought his privilege to archery hunt...but also owns a cross bow  ..HAS to purchase a ML tag If they do not ML...A lot of ppl  do not ML

They are still going to do the same thing to get the extra tag. I know bow hunters that buy a ML license every year and don't even own a ML

[growalot]

I'd find their numbers(DEC cash flow) interesting on this.. Your right though Culver, Son and Mr.B. both have theirs(LT) and both have great guns but rarely ML

[Buckmaster7600]

I don't know why that quoted like that...but I was specific in stating ppl like me also lets be honest here there are a whole lot of guys with out ML tags hunting with a cross bow during archery season now...it's just not openly talked about. Well occasionally someone here mentions it. EVERY single archery hunter that bought his privilege to archery hunt...but also owns a cross bow  ..HAS to purchase a ML tag If they do not ML...A lot of ppl  do not ML

Grow I'm sure I'm not the first one to tell you this but you're a rare breed, I'm am certain dec is not taking "people like you" in account for any decisions they make.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[growalot]

OK ...

[Five Seasons]

1 hour ago, growalot said:

I don't know why that quoted like that...but I was specific in stating ppl like me also lets be honest here there are a whole lot of guys with out ML tags hunting with a cross bow during archery season now...

What sort of evidence do you have of this? a ML tag is $15... 

[WNYBuckHunter]

3 hours ago, growalot said:

I don't know why that quoted like that...but I was specific in stating ppl like me also lets be honest here there are a whole lot of guys with out ML tags hunting with a cross bow during archery season now...it's just not openly talked about. Well occasionally someone here mentions it. EVERY single archery hunter that bought his privilege to archery hunt...but also owns a cross bow  ..HAS to purchase a ML tag If they do not ML...A lot of ppl  do not ML

Proof of this? I dont think Ive ever read anything on here about anyone crossbow hunting without the proper privilege. Regardless, law breakers dont care what the regs say, they do what they want.

[growalot]

Well I' not going through the last few years posts. That said wrecall at least 4 mentions..and I Talk with a lot of ppl and I'm  on more than one site ..What ever I' not getting into a -is ing match with you I'm  hunting

[Five Seasons]

can someone translate that?

[WNYBuckHunter]

5 minutes ago, Belo said:

can someone translate that?

Sure. She has nothing to back it up.

Not that it really matters, if someone knowingly does something that is illegal, then they dont care what the DEC does regulation, permit or privilege wise. They will hunt how they want to hunt.

[Doewhacker]

2 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Sure. She has nothing to back it up.

Wasn’t there a person last week that had a bow and a crossbow out before crossbow opened? 

 

Wait that was grow... ... ... ...

[WNYBuckHunter]

2 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

Wasn’t there a person last week that had a bow and a crossbow out before crossbow opened? 

 

Wait that was grow... ... ... ...

Yes it was. She was legal according to what she posted from the DEC though.

[Jmny]

7 hours ago, Belo said:

you can apply for a permit to allow you to use a crossbow. Just about everyone i know supports their use for elderly and handicapped. 

Again false and misleading information.  Correct me if I’m wrong,  but to my memory the only handicap permit one can apply for during gun, archery( compound or crossbow ) is if you had a disability that prevented you from pulling the trigger or release.  In these extreme handicapped situations your allowed (after securing the necessary paperwork) to discharge your weapon through a STRAW. Always wondered if I needed to be handicapped to that degree, how would I lift, aim,  turn my weapon to adjust aim for an animal that moved a foot since initial aiming,  to finally be able to blow( exhale) through the straw to discharge my weapon.  I can only quess that someone in that state of disability would have an interest or  financial assets to have gear  developed to assist in their hunting experience and at the same time make it safe to discharge those weapons in a responsible manner. (recoil from  gun).

i know of no other handicapped variances other than use of vehicle for mobility on some state lands( limited). I’m not familiar with any exceptions to the rules and regulations that give a handicapped or elderly person special permit. To use a crossbow aside from the last 14 days of archery season which is something all hunters presently enjoy ( Nothing special) 

Apparently I’m not up to date with the rules and permits available to a certain population of NY hunters( handicapped)

Presently I know of no permit that would allow me to use my crossbow during the entire archery season.   But that is something that really has my interest.  I would appreciate your assistance on locating these permits.  Where can I find this information ?   Don’t want to be bothersome , you can just respond on this thread, I will check periodically.  And thank you in advance, for your assistance and correcting  my misguided train of thought on this matter.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Jmny

[Jmny]

10 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I just checked every state that the map posted earlier shows full inclusion. I see power stroke Minimum requirements  and draw poundage minimum requirements (all of which a all modern crossbows meet. Unless you can find something that differs from what I have read, NO OTHER STATE with inclusion has a width restriction or a maximum draw weight that I can find.  What states have restrictions that would make these crossbows illegal to use? 

The bottom line is this state has imposed restrictions as to minimum width and Maximum draw weight.  As long as I have an oppurtunity to hunt with a crossbow within the stated limitations during the entire archery season I’m find.  I won’t buy a crossbow outside the NYS limitations for crossbows if my primary hunting area were within NYS.  Why can’t I hunt slduting gun season with a fully automatic weapon we’re i wouldn’t have to repeatedly pull the trigger for each shot.  Why does the state place that limitation on my gun season.  I bought a crossbow out of necessity. I made sure I purchased one that met the limitations of the state.  I have a crossbow that shoots 410 FPS,  with kinetic energy of 149 lbs at 10 yards.  It maintains it speed and kinetic energy necessary to shoot a deer at 50 yards.  The longest shit you’re going to get in the woods without weeks of clearing shooting lanes of tree branches.  But the major reason of buying this weapon was that it was something I could use for every big game on the continent any many other. There will never be a need to purchase another  crossbow.  But I struggle to pull back my 185 lb draw.  So I have my son draw the crossbow when he drops me at my ground blind.  Yes I’m limited to one shot, but I’ve grown use to that since I picked up a Thompson muzzleloader.  With my inherent limitations I realized that I have one shot to be successful.    Now . I believe that every hunter ( New and old) should only be allowed one shot in the magazine of any shotgun or rifle.  It would require the hunters to be more patient and wait for a kill shot to present itself.  However, I realize that imposing my beliefs on others isn’t right.  The other hunters have met all the state requirements to hunt, how they choose to do so, isn’t my decision to make.  The only time I feel a necessary responsibility to intervene with the way others hunters hunt, is when they hunt my land. It is my responsibility to keep members of my family and friends in a safe situation.

PS: : if you bought a crossbow that doesn’t fall within the parameters of being legal in NY I would check with Ohio regs

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The bottom line is this state has imposed restrictions as to minimum width and Maximum draw weight.  As long as I have an oppurtunity to hunt with a crossbow within the stated limitations during the entire archery season I’m find.  I won’t buy a crossbow outside the NYS limitations for crossbows if my primary hunting area were within NYS.  Why can’t I hunt slduting gun season with a fully automatic weapon we’re i wouldn’t have to repeatedly pull the trigger for each shot.  Why does the state place that limitation on my gun season.  I bought a crossbow out of necessity. I made sure I purchased one that met the limitations of the state.  I have a crossbow that shoots 410 FPS,  with kinetic energy of 149 lbs at 10 yards.  It maintains it speed and kinetic energy necessary to shoot a deer at 50 yards.  The longest shit you’re going to get in the woods without weeks of clearing shooting lanes of tree branches.  But the major reason of buying this weapon was that it was something I could use for every big game on the continent any many other. There will never be a need to purchase another  crossbow.  But I struggle to pull back my 185 lb draw.  So I have my son draw the crossbow when he drops me at my ground blind.  Yes I’m limited to one shot, but I’ve grown use to that since I picked up a Thompson muzzleloader.  With my inherent limitations I realized that I have one shot to be successful.    Now . I believe that every hunter ( New and old) should only be allowed one shot in the magazine of any shotgun or rifle.  It would require the hunters to be more patient and wait for a kill shot to present itself.  However, I realize that imposing my beliefs on others isn’t right.  The other hunters have met all the state requirements to hunt, how they choose to do so, isn’t my decision to make.  The only time I feel a necessary responsibility to intervene with the way others hunters hunt, is when they hunt my land. It is my responsibility to keep members of my family and friends in a safe situation.
PS: : if you bought a crossbow that doesn’t fall within the parameters of being legal in NY I would check with Ohio regs

Oh mine meets it. I find it odd that you considered the manufactures as being misguided for manufacturing bows that did t meet NY’s restrictions. Actually I see them as making good business decisions to not consider NY since it is the only or very few states that have maximum poundage or minimum width

[Jmny]

On 11/2/2017 at 10:00 AM, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I guess Glock, Smith and Wesson, Beretta and the others are just as short sighted becasue they produce pistol magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. I haven't compared all the states where crossbows are legal  for their spec requirements, (I am betting you haven't either), but out of curiosity, I will be. 

Again a comprehension problem.  I stated about bow manufacture that would invest in making a crossboe that isn’t able to be used deer hunting in a state the size of New York.  Further the point was concentrating our efforts to just making the use of the crossbow during the entire archery season.   What the NYCC is trying to do is similar to what congressman and senators do to a worthy proposition attach  amendments to i it, to try to sneak into law.  Most time it serves to get the original proposition defeated. 

Second point, it’s not about guns but if it was, you wouldn’t be able to use magizinr holding over 10.   I’m not sure but it might even be lower( 5 ? From experience with a shotgun.   But as some one that takes3 studs with me into the woods and hunts 90 percent of my gun hunting with a muzzleloader I have no need to be concerned with knowing how many rounds  above 3 are allowed.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Again a comprehension problem.  I stated about bow manufacture that would invest in making a crossboe that isn’t able to be used deer hunting in a state the size of New York.  Further the point was concentrating our efforts to just making the use of the crossbow during the entire archery season.   What the NYCC is trying to do is similar to what congressman and senators do to a worthy proposition attach  amendments to i it, to try to sneak into law.  Most time it serves to get the original proposition defeated. 
Second point, it’s not about guns but if it was, you wouldn’t be able to use magizinr holding over 10.   I’m not sure but it might even be lower( 5 ? From experience with a shotgun.   But as some one that takes3 studs with me into the woods and hunts 90 percent of my gun hunting with a muzzleloader I have no need to be concerned with knowing how many rounds  above 3 are allowed.

No. You have the problem. It’s called cranial recrumitis. You called the manufactures misguided for making a crossbow that can’t be used in NY. In fact with out limited season is makes perfect business sense to discount NY when developing a model or limiting concern about it. On your second pour is is obvious you know very little about regulations and laws. Might want to read up and educate yourself

[Jmny]

On 11/2/2017 at 10:12 PM, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Oh mine meets it. I find it odd that you considered the manufactures as being misguided for manufacturing bows that did t meet NY’s restrictions. Actually I see them as making good business decisions to not consider NY since it is the only or very few states that have maximum poundage or minimum width

 

6 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

No. You have the problem. It’s called cranial recrumitis. You called the manufactures misguided for making a crossbow that can’t be used in NY. In fact with out limited season is makes perfect business sense to discount NY when developing a model or limiting concern about it. On your second pour is is obvious you know very little about regulations and laws. Might want to read up and educate yourself

Wow, I’m offended by your ability to make up words.  Myself,  I wouldn’t invest in manufacturing a crossbow that doesn’t meet the qualification of the 4th highest number is deer hunters in the country.  That is 741,140 prospective crossbow sales I disregard Because of the maximum width of the crossbow is less than 17 inches.  

Oh by the way the top three states all allow Crossbow use all of the archery season.  I  don’t know a lot, but I’m not to lazy to research it.  Would never want to put myself in a position were I run my mouth but fail to give any credible data to reinforce my opinions.  Seems some people have no problem doing so.

And just to simplify this for you, I stated 741,140 potential sales.  That would be the number of deer hunters in NYS as of 2016.  And yes, I realize that doesn’t mean they would all buy a crossbow,  in fact a large percentage don’t presently archery hunt .   But the possibility of starting would PROBABLY increase if the crossbow was inclusive for the entire archery season like the three highest states( per deer hunters)

[wolc123]

I do not have a problem with the width and poundage restrictions in NY.  My own entry-level crossbow comes in right at the minimum width and is well under the maximum poundage but is very effective on deer up to 50 yards.    For me, that is plenty of range for archery season.    If it would speed up full inclusion, then I would certainly like to see the removal of those restrictions taken off of the current legeslation.    I can not fault the crossbow manufactures from building crossbows that do not meet NY's restrictions.   They would be crazy not to.   There will always be folks with plenty of cash, who insist on the fastest and longest reaching deer weapons.  Ignoring them would be ludicrous.        

[Jmny]

On 11/2/2017 at 10:29 AM, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I just checked every state that the map posted earlier shows full inclusion. I see power stroke Minimum requirements  and draw poundage minimum requirements (all of which a all modern crossbows meet. Unless you can find something that differs from what I have read, NO OTHER STATE with inclusion has a width restriction or a maximum draw weight that I can find.  What states have restrictions that would make these crossbows illegal to use? 

On 11/2/2017 at 10:18 AM, WNYBuckHunter said:

How would they lose $? They would just make it so you have to buy the archery privilege if it was fully included. Either that or they will add another privilege specifically for crossbow.

DEC wants full inclusion, they have made that clear on multiple occasions.

If they made it inclusive it would require an archery privlege not a muzzleloader privlege.  Which is a wash at $15 for both.   But presently many hunters that purchased the old sportsman license that included ( Big game, small game, fishing and turkey permits. In addition to purchasing a bow and/or muzzleloader permit.  I’m willing to bet that quite a few crossbow hunters still pay for their archery (bow) license even though they don’t need it or use it.  But after reading the rules and regulations, the crossbow hunter for $15 gets a guaranteed doe permit not limited to a specific DMP, in addition to a deer of either chance on the Muzzleloader /Bow tag.. You would get both tags. Any hunter with only the archery or muzzleloader privilege gets only bow/ muzzleloader either sex permit.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Jmny

[Jmny]

On 11/4/2017 at 5:49 AM, wolc123 said:

I do not have a problem with the width and poundage restrictions in NY.  My own entry-level crossbow comes in right at the minimum width and is well under the maximum poundage but is very effective on deer up to 50 yards.    For me, that is plenty of range for archery season.    If it would speed up full inclusion, then I would certainly like to see the removal of those restrictions taken off of the current legeslation.    I can not fault the crossbow manufactures from building crossbows that do not meet NY's restrictions.   They would be crazy not to.   There will always be folks with plenty of cash, who insist on the fastest and longest reaching deer weapons.  Ignoring them would be ludicrous.        

I don’t fault the crossbow manufactures ( unless I was a stockholder of the company.)   Investing in a crossbow that 30, now 20 fps faster that competitors crossbows  but not meeting the minimum width requirements in NYS.   That’s nearly 3/4 of a million possible sales that I have excluded from ever happening. Now let’s assume only one percent of Ny hunters decide to purchase my bow if it was legal in NYS that’s roughly 7,500 sales.the next two fastest bows which both qualify as legal in NYS are 20 ands 30 FPS slower.

Some factual info: 

440fps - @ 20 yds - 432fps - 173 KE - 4” drop   

               @ 50 yds - 418 fps - 163 KE - 25” drop

410fps - @20 yds -402 FPS - 151 KE - 5 “ drop

               @ 50 yds - 390 fps - 142 KE - 28 “ drop 

mai the question is having a narrower width outside NY Standards worth the possibilities of losing 1% of posibile sales to roughly 3/4 million deer hunters.  Especially seeing 95-99 % of the shots in the woods are limited to 150 feet.  And the minimum amount of KE needed to effectively kill a deer Is between 25-30 KE. So is that Mille second of speed worth eliminating x possible crossbow purchases ?  Myself and most reasonable individuals would say no.

pS: before posting this article I decided to research the manufactures webpage.  Whilechecking the specs of the scorpyd Vtec extreme is  15.& 7/8 th cocked.  NYS requires a minimum width of 17 inches uncocked.  So it would be presumptuous of me to disqualify there bow as illegal in NYS without measuring the width uncocked.  Owever I have no interest in doing so.  So anyone that wants to hunt in NY might want to check out the uncocked width length.  Additional they have anothercnodel that attains 440 FPS speed the Ventilator which stipulates axle to axle cocked at 12&7/8th and uncocked at 19&5/8th.  Well within NY limits for a legal crossbow.  Still perplexed why this was has both imensions listed and the  Vtec extreme only the cocked.

Pss: the ravin15 shoots @ 425 fps with an axle to axle width of only 10.5 inches uncocked  costing roughly $2,000. Lot of money to spend for something you can’t use in NYS. But it might be worth it to some 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Jmny

[wolc123]

2 hours ago, Jmny said:

I don’t fault the crossbow manufactures ( unless I was a stockholder of the company.)   Investing in a crossbow that 30, now 20 fps faster that competitors crossbows  but not meeting the minimum width requirements in NYS.   That’s nearly 3/4 of a million possible sales that I have excluded from ever happening. Now let’s assume only one percent of Ny hunters decide to purchase my bow if it was legal in NYS that’s roughly 7,500 sales.the next two fastest bows which both qualify as legal in NYS are 20 ands 30 FPS slower.

Some factual info: 

440fps - @ 20 yds - 432fps - 173 KE - 4” drop   

               @ 50 yds - 418 fps - 163 KE - 25” drop

410fps - @20 yds -402 FPS - 151 KE - 5 “ drop

               @ 50 yds - 390 fps - 142 KE - 28 “ drop 

mai the question is having a narrower width outside NY Standards worth the possibilities of losing 1% of posibile sales to roughly 3/4 million deer hunters.  Especially seeing 95-99 % of the shots in the woods are limited to 150 feet.  And the minimum amount of KE needed to effectively kill a deer Is between 25-30 KE. So is that Mille second of speed worth eliminating x possible crossbow purchases ?  Myself and most reasonable individuals would say no.

pS: before posting this article I decided to research the manufactures webpage.  Whilechecking the specs of the scorpyd Vtec extreme is  15.& 7/8 th cocked.  NYS requires a minimum width of 17 inches uncocked.  So it would be presumptuous of me to disqualify there bow as illegal in NYS without measuring the width uncocked.  Owever I have no interest in doing so.  So anyone that wants to hunt in NY might want to check out the uncocked width length.  Additional they have anothercnodel that attains 440 FPS speed the Ventilator which stipulates axle to axle cocked at 12&7/8th and uncocked at 19&5/8th.  Well within NY limits for a legal crossbow.  Still perplexed why this was has both imensions listed and the  Vtec extreme only the cocked.

Pss: the ravin15 shoots @ 425 fps with an axle to axle width of only 10.5 inches uncocked  costing roughly $2,000. Lot of money to spend for something you can’t use in NYS. But it might be worth it to some 

The NY restrictions currently include a minimum uncocked width and a maximum draw weight.  I believe that the higher speed models you are referencing exceed the maximum allowable draw weight in NY.    The draw weight is a critical component of achieving high speed, much more so than the uncocked width, so that should be included in your research.