AR's suck

[chas0218]

1 hour ago, steve863 said:

All I will say is to HELL with AR's and this past weekend proved it to me more than ever!  Instead of wasting my time in the Catskills where I wouldn't be allowed to shoot anything I was invited up to forum member Culver Creek Hunt's Club cabin (non AR region) this past weekend and I shot myself a buck that wouldn't qualify under AR's.  I for one could care less how many points a deer wears on his head.  Thanks to Culver's gracious invitation I got myself a freezer full of venison and had a super great and memorable weekend up at his place.  I tell you all, it would be hard to find a more generous, hospitable and friendly guy than him!  So the moral here is that AR's may make some trophy obsessed people happy thinking that they will sooner than later kill that monster buck, but the honest truth is that many of those people will NEVER know what hunting should really be all about!!

 

 

 

 

 

So where you hunt has AR's how many bucks do you see that you can't shoot each season? How many hunt that same property? How many DMP do you get to use on that same property?

[chas0218]

10 minutes ago, turkeyfeathers said:

Buy in bulk. One for you , coonhunter and archery shop and gun club. Volume discount. 

How many boone and crocket have you seen that are 200lbs. I'm sorry but I'm not buying his argument unless he is hunting high fence deer, and I still don't see many on those TV shows that are 200lbs.

I know lots of guys that hunt in WNY where they have tons of Ag fields for these deer and the 200 pounders are few and far between.

Edited November 21, 2017 by chas0218

[BigVal]

Last ten over 175? That's impressive, I'd like to see some pics those are huge! 

[Doewhacker]

4 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

So where you hunt has AR's how many bucks do you see that you can't shoot each season? How many hunt that same property? How many DMP do you get to use on that same property?

Speaking for my own crew in 4S, Zero doe permits are issued. That is actually a decrease from before AR's. Sitting on the edge of a 150 acre field inside of another 150 acre wood lot my brother stopped counting deer after 70 opening day of bow. Maybe one out of all of those was AR legal and that was a 1.5. For the entire season there were 4 legal bucks spotted (some barely). Hundreds of deer seen and maybe 4 legal bucks. It is not like it is where you hunt, trust me.

[Doewhacker]

Here’s a common 2.5 in the area I mentioned. I hunt there about once a year now because it’s just not worth the drive and I can find much nicer bucks at home. 

If there were doe permits I might hunt more. 

[Doewhacker]

1 hour ago, brownclown said:

i just cant understand the objection. first off the safety aspect of the practice alone is enough of a reason to implement it. It forces people to slow down and know what they are shooting. But 2ndly after two years the entire age structure of the population has increased.  so all those 1.5 spike you see are now more then likely shooters. people are afraid since they dont see mature deer now that the would continue to be the case. this just isn't true. now instead of seeing lots of 1.5 youll see l of 2.5 and 3.5 in the place.

Have any stats to prove there is a change in safety? 

[Doewhacker]

20 minutes ago, turkeyfeathers said:

Buy in bulk. One for you , coonhunter and archery shop and gun club. Volume discount. 

Let’s not leave out Wolc. He shoots 1.5s that weigh 175 

[brownclown]

5 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

Have any stats to prove there is a change in safety? 

thats everyones go to as if that proves an argument. Are the even studies on the subject? Can you really refute this? it is common sense.

[chas0218]

14 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

Speaking for my own crew in 4S, Zero doe permits are issued. That is actually a decrease from before AR's. Sitting on the edge of a 150 acre field inside of another 150 acre wood lot my brother stopped counting deer after 70 opening day of bow. Maybe one out of all of those was AR legal and that was a 1.5. For the entire season there were 4 legal bucks spotted (some barely). Hundreds of deer seen and maybe 4 legal bucks. It is not like it is where you hunt, trust me.

So I guess my question is then where are these 1.5 year old deer going if there are that many. I'm sorry things don't add up either you have a ridiculous number of poachers or you have the worse infestation of predators. If there are that many deer then you should have shooters.

[Doewhacker]

6 minutes ago, brownclown said:

thats everyones go to as if that proves an argument. Are the even studies on the subject? Can you really refute this? it is common sense.

You said it like it was a proven stat, I guess the reality is you pulled it out of your butt.

Safety is tracked yearly by the DEC, I know the answer to my question and I also know when some is making things up like you did. The fact is we are a very safe state, it might be hard to improve on that.

[Doewhacker]

7 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

So I guess my question is then where are these 1.5 year old deer going if there are that many. I'm sorry things don't add up either you have a ridiculous number of poachers or you have the worse infestation of predators. If there are that many deer then you should have shooters.

Well the good ones get killed, leaving the crappy ones to grow like the pic I posted. Some may not grow enough points before they die from something else. Everyone always forgets that deer die from various reasons besides hunters. Or once they get big the are rarely seen like every where else.

[Doewhacker]

15 minutes ago, brownclown said:

thats everyones go to as if that proves an argument. Are the even studies on the subject? Can you really refute this? it is common sense.

Here you go...

The State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) announced today that the 2016 hunting season in New York had only 13 hunting-related shooting incidents, the lowest number on record since DEC began compiling hunting-related shooting statistics in 1958.

"Hunting is a proud tradition in New York State that continues to be safely enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of residents and visitors each year," DEC Commissioner Basil Seggos said. "The trend of declining hunting accidents is proof that our Sportsman Education Program is working thanks, in large part, to the efforts of the 3,000 volunteer instructors that teach our hunter safety courses every year."

Of the 13 hunting-related shooting incidents in 2016, seven incidents were self-inflicted and six incidents involved more than one person. In 2015, there were 23 incidents. In 1966, there were 166 incidents, 13 of which were fatal.

Despite these low numbers, there were four fatalities in 2016 - two two-party incidents and two self-inflicted incidents.

"While hunting is safer than ever, accidents can still happen," Seggos said. "It is important to remember that every hunting-related shooting incident is preventable. We urge every hunter going afield this year to wear hunter orange. It's the smart thing to do."

This year's report indicated that eight of the people involved in multi-party incidents were not wearing hunter orange.

With approximately 500,000 licensed hunters spending an estimated 10 to 15 million days afield each year, New York continues its trend of declining hunting-related shooting incidents, with the incident rate (incidents per 100,000 hunters) declining almost 80 percent since the 1960s. The past five-year average is down to 3.5 incidents per 100,000 hunters, compared to 19 per 100,000 in the 1960s.

[brownclown]

4 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

You said it like it was a proven stat, I guess the reality is you pulled it out of your butt.

Safety is tracked yearly by the DEC, I know the answer to my question and I also know when some is making things up like you did. The fact is we are a very safe state, it might be hard to improve on that.

where . please quote where i said it was a proven stat. Even you cant not deny forcing someone to slow down and clearly identify their target wouldn't improve safety. it is self evident.

[steve863]

45 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

So where you hunt has AR's how many bucks do you see that you can't shoot each season? How many hunt that same property? How many DMP do you get to use on that same property?

How do ZERO DMP's sound to you?  You should try hunting some of these areas in the Catskills and tell us how many bucks you could see?  Typically you don't get to see many bucks at all, let alone ones with 3 points to a side.  You guys in western NY may have scores of deer marching by you most every time out, but I could assure you that isn't what it's like in the Catskills.  If you are not allowed to shoot smaller bucks,  and have few doe permits issued, the hunter might as well stay home and not waste his time. 

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by steve863

[brownclown]

4 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

Here you go...

The State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) announced today that the 2016 hunting season in New York had only 13 hunting-related shooting incidents, the lowest number on record since DEC began compiling hunting-related shooting statistics in 1958.

"Hunting is a proud tradition in New York State that continues to be safely enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of residents and visitors each year," DEC Commissioner Basil Seggos said. "The trend of declining hunting accidents is proof that our Sportsman Education Program is working thanks, in large part, to the efforts of the 3,000 volunteer instructors that teach our hunter safety courses every year."

Of the 13 hunting-related shooting incidents in 2016, seven incidents were self-inflicted and six incidents involved more than one person. In 2015, there were 23 incidents. In 1966, there were 166 incidents, 13 of which were fatal.

Despite these low numbers, there were four fatalities in 2016 - two two-party incidents and two self-inflicted incidents.

"While hunting is safer than ever, accidents can still happen," Seggos said. "It is important to remember that every hunting-related shooting incident is preventable. We urge every hunter going afield this year to wear hunter orange. It's the smart thing to do."

This year's report indicated that eight of the people involved in multi-party incidents were not wearing hunter orange.

With approximately 500,000 licensed hunters spending an estimated 10 to 15 million days afield each year, New York continues its trend of declining hunting-related shooting incidents, with the incident rate (incidents per 100,000 hunters) declining almost 80 percent since the 1960s. The past five-year average is down to 3.5 incidents per 100,000 hunters, compared to 19 per 100,000 in the 1960s.

im not disputing that hunting isnt currently safe. The point i am making is AR's could make it safer by forcing people to take a second to think, instead of impulsively reacting to "antler".

[Doewhacker]

5 minutes ago, brownclown said:

im not disputing that hunting isnt currently safe. The point i am making is AR's could make it safer by forcing people to take a second to think, instead of impulsively reacting to "antler".

I fully understand the point you are trying to make but unfortunately the reports do not support these claims. Many are accidental self inflicted.

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/nyhrsi2015.pdf

[steve863]

3 minutes ago, brownclown said:

im not disputing that hunting isnt currently safe. The point i am making is AR's could make it safer by forcing people to take a second to think, instead of impulsively reacting to "antler".

I've got to say your point makes absolutely NO sense.  That extra second may save you from shooting a buck that doesn't qualify under AR's but has ZERO effect on the overall safety of the sport.  This is just some more BS that was fed to the politicians and the DEC by certain "sportsman clubs" in the region to get AR's implemented.  All a crock of self-serving $#!+ in my opinion.

 

 

[Doewhacker]

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/nyhrsi2016.pdf

2016 stats

[chas0218]

22 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

Well the good ones get killed, leaving the crappy ones to grow like the pic I posted. Some may not grow enough points before they die from something else. Everyone always forgets that deer die from various reasons besides hunters. Or once they get big the are rarely seen like every where else.

Most don't forget but like I mentioned you have one heck of a poaching problem or you have NY's entire population of coyotes in the cat skills. There is no way that only legal bucks are targeted by diseases/sickness, or motor vehicles. To see 70 deer on one property and have 1 or 2 shooters each year isn't going to happen no matter where you are. Someone is using the fudge factor like DEC when counting 70 deer. They don't just up and vanish. I'm not going to comment on your hunting strategies because I don't know anything about you or your crew. So i can't help in that aspect but I know when I don't see deer generally I move to a different location.

We have 220 acres and see on average 20-30 different deer and this is in central NY in Wayne county with our property being 40/60 ag fields to woods. That being said in your Catskill area you are claiming to have higher population densities than areas that are considered prime habitat which the Catskills or ADK are not. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by chas0218

[chas0218]

7 minutes ago, steve863 said:

That extra second may save you from shooting a buck that doesn't qualify under AR's but has ZERO effect on the overall safety of the sport. 

 

When was the first shot you heard this year? Mine was 6:12 A.M. using my 40mm objective on my scope I looked around guess what I couldn't make out the tree in front of my stand looking through my scope. So that means someone used a light or shot at the deer shaped blob in front of them. Do you think that same person would do that not being able to see if it was a legal buck? Absolutely Not because they not only could get busted for shooting before sunrise but also dinged for illegal buck. 

So the common sense thing of yeah they would have to actually wait to see what the hell they are shooting at meaning it is more light and they can actually see further than 20 yards in the woods. So yeah it would be safer, I have seen your posts and you don't lack the common sense to connect it all.

[Doewhacker]

4 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Most don't forget but like I mentioned you have one heck of a poaching problem or you have NY's entire population of coyotes in the cat skills. There is no way that only legal bucks are targeted by diseases/sickness, or motor vehicles. To see 70 deer on one property and have 1 or 2 shooters each year isn't going to happen no matter where you are. Someone is using the fudge factor like DEC when counting 70 deer. They don't just up and vanish. I'm not going to comment on your hunting strategies because I don't know anything about you or your crew. So i can't help in that aspect but I know when I don't see deer generally I move to a different location.

We have 220 acres and see on average 20-30 different deer and this is in central NY in Wayne county with our property being 40/60 ag fields to woods. That being said in your Catskill area you are claiming to have higher population densities than areas that are considered prime habitat which the Catskills or ADK are not. 

haha   Yea that's it I'm making up stuff and you are the best hunter who would no doubt see big bucks where they don't exist. AR's are a social issue and really do not do much to improve hunting unless you like seeing 2.5 yr old 4 points.

 

[Doewhacker]

5 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

When was the first shot you heard this year? Mine was 6:12 A.M. using my 40mm objective on my scope I looked around guess what I couldn't make out the tree in front of my stand looking through my scope. So that means someone used a light or shot at the deer shaped blob in front of them. Do you think that same person would do that not being able to see if it was a legal buck? Absolutely Not because they not only could get busted for shooting before sunrise but also dinged for illegal buck. 

So the common sense thing of yeah they would have to actually wait to see what the hell they are shooting at meaning it is more light and they can actually see further than 20 yards in the woods. So yeah it would be safer, I have seen your posts and you don't lack the common sense to connect it all.

Except for the stats don't lie and that is not true. I have already shown that.

[brownclown]

4 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

Except for the stats don't lie and that is not true. I have already shown that.

no, they dont . they show hunting is already pretty safe. It is alright to admit that Ar's could make things safer and still be against AR's.

[dbHunterNY]

On 11/19/2017 at 7:48 PM, coonhunter said:

Right there with you blur. I was in an AR area yesterday with a gentleman that has shot one buck his whole life. He got to witness, for the first time in his life, two bucks chasing does all around him. Unfortunately for him, both were forks or spikes. He was excited about the grunting, chasing, and the mouths being wide open, but he sure was disappointed in not being able to shoot. Especially, when he was denied a doe tag for the second year in a row. 

I just don't like them being forced down hunters' throats. Voluntary works for people that want them.

First time in his life experiencing certain deer activity and excited to see it all unfold.  If not for ARs he might have shot one as soon as it showed itself and never would've seen any of it.  sounds like it was still a great hunt.  one he won't forget.  hunting isn't meant to be all about participation trophies and the kill.  it is about enjoying the idea of being out there and taking home memories/stories to tell others.  sounds like he was in a good spot.  hope he returns to the area within the next day or two.  bigger deer cruise and only stop for a hot doe.  hot doe don't really cruise. its a beautiful thing right now.

[chas0218]

3 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

haha   Yea that's it I'm making up stuff and you are the best hunter who would no doubt see big bucks where they don't exist. AR's are a social issue and really do not do much to improve hunting unless you like seeing 2.5 yr old 4 points.

 

Hey you're claiming 70 different deer in one sit and only 2 being shooters the next year.