Gun Ownership Up & Violent Crime Down per FBI

[Dave]

You want me to back up my responses? Viet Nam, why did we go there? To stop the spread of communism. Did we win? Iraq, why did we go there ? Weapons of mass destruction, did we find any? Libya , Why the hell are we there in the first place? To stop civilian  from being killed!! That is our current policy!! Than what about Syria, Yemen, Egypt , etc get my point? Our Gov't never went into Viet Nam to win it was politics , no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Who can define our policy in Libya? That's why I question the leadership of this country which was ones noble and proud.

Dave

[Mr VJP]

Virgil, why don't you tell us why you do trust the government?  Do you believe it is your friend?

[nyantler]

I know we are never going to change your mind on this, Virgil, but I just ask you to consider what benefit would come form registering them. What benefit could it serve? I am not looking for a response...just asking you to reflect on it.

You guys are getting yourselves all wound up again.  My mind is not made up.  I simply asked for the reasons against it.  As I said, registration works for cars- I'm curious as to why there are such strong opinions against it for guns.

As far as potential benefit, I think that accountability would be the primary benefit.  If registration were ever to be considered, maybe it would involve 'grandfathering' guns manufactured before a certain date.  That could protect people who have bought their guns legally before the law went into effect.  It sounds to me though that the primary issue on this subject (and many others) for some of you guys is the distrust of the government.

Virgil.. show me how any of what you have just said has anything to do with keeping guns out of the hands of criminals... and as for distrusting the government... all you have to do is look at what they have already done to be distrusted... good example would be... if you think you own your own home... you are wrong... even if you have never had a mortgage and the home is completely paid for... don't pay the taxes for a few years.. and see who owns your home then... that alone to me is a reason to not trust the government... not to mention the thousands of dollars I have already paid in taxes in my lifetime which have been misused and misappropriated by our government officials... Only a naive person would trust fully any government.... we'd still be British if we kept trusting England in 1776..lol

[virgil]

Virgil, why don't you tell us why you do trust the government?  Do you believe it is your friend?

The EPA, FDA, FAA, etc., etc.- all government agencies that make our lives better and safer.  Do I have blind faith in anyone or anything, especially government?- of course not.  I am a skeptic by nature.  I believe in questioning everything.  However, I think there's a big difference between being skeptical and being suspicious or paranoid.  And, I think there's no difference between the fool who believes everything he's told and the fool who refuses to believe anything.

As far as the point about home ownership and taxes- are you saying that you should be able to refuse to pay taxes without consequences?  That's absurd.  As far as my earlier post not addressing gun control issues- this thread has gotten off topic; my post was in response to Dave's earlier post.

[Dave]

Virgil, why don't you tell us why you do trust the government?  Do you believe it is your friend?

The EPA, FDA, FAA, etc., etc.- all government agencies that make our lives better and safer.  Do I have blind faith in anyone or anything, especially government?- of course not.  I am a skeptic by nature.  I believe in questioning everything.  However, I think there's a big difference between being skeptical and being suspicious or paranoid.  And, I think there's no difference between the fool who believes everything he's told and the fool who refuses to believe anything.

As far as the point about home ownership and taxes- are you saying that you should be able to refuse to pay taxes without consequences?  That's absurd.  As far as my earlier post not addressing gun control issues- this thread has gotten off topic; my post was in response to Dave's earlier post.

Virgil, I don't know if you are following the controversy over Hydro Fracking for natural gas. In the Marcellus Shale or if you saw the movie Gas Lands but the EPA is not looking out for our best interest. The Gas Companies are not held to the same standards as local states are, they don't have to follow clean air, water act. Which out Gov't had exempted them from following our beloved hunting areas in NY will be decimated.

Dave 

[virgil]

Virgil, I don't know if you are following the controversy over Hydro Fracking for natural gas. In the Marcellus Shale or if you saw the movie Gas Lands but the EPA is not looking out for our best interest. The Gas Companies are not held to the same standards as local states are, they don't have to follow clean air, water act. Which out Gov't had exempted them from following our beloved hunting areas in NY will be decimated.

I never implied that these or any other agencies are perfect.  However, their existence does in fact make our lives better and safer.  So, what are you proposing?  Should we do away with the EPA?  Would that make your drinking water safer and cleaner?  Or do you have a plan for a more perfect version of the EPA that nobody could find fault with?

[Dave]

I know we are never going to change your mind on this, Virgil, but I just ask you to consider what benefit would come form registering them. What benefit could it serve? I am not looking for a response...just asking you to reflect on it.

You guys are getting yourselves all wound up again.  My mind is not made up.  I simply asked for the reasons against it.  As I said, registration works for cars- I'm curious as to why there are such strong opinions against it for guns.

As far as potential benefit, I think that accountability would be the primary benefit.  If registration were ever to be considered, maybe it would involve 'grandfathering' guns manufactured before a certain date.  That could protect people who have bought their guns legally before the law went into effect.  It sounds to me though that the primary issue on this subject (and many others) for some of you guys is the distrust of the government.

Virgil.. show me how any of what you have just said has anything to do with keeping guns out of the hands of criminals... and as for distrusting the government... all you have to do is look at what they have already done to be distrusted... good example would be... if you think you own your own home... you are wrong... even if you have never had a mortgage and the home is completely paid for... don't pay the taxes for a few years.. and see who owns your home then... that alone to me is a reason to not trust the government... not to mention the thousands of dollars I have already paid in taxes in my lifetime which have been misused and misappropriated by our government officials... Only a naive person would trust fully any government.... we'd still be British if we kept trusting England in 1776..lol

Antler totally agree have had this conversation at work before. At least when you had your mortgage you knew what the principal and interest were, the taxes keep changing. This January my mortgage payment had a big increase I called my bank they advised me my school taxes went up $16000 for the new school year. No warning just pay ,that's it, to me that's a big increase being retired now. When you pay off your mortgage you rent your house and property for the rest of your life. Like you said if you don't pay your taxes they will have your home. I never read anything you said about not paying your taxes but the consequences if you didn't.

Dave

Dave

[steve863]

If some of you don't like government, taxes and things like that, why don't you get into your row boats and invade an uninhabited island in the south pacific somewhere and live there?  That might be your only chance of living in a place where you don't have a government or taxes because they are here to stay in the good old USA.  Actually I think some of you would fit in quite well with the coconuts that grow in those places.  LOL

[Dave]

If some of you don't like government, taxes and things like that, why don't you get into your row boats and invade an uninhabited island in the south pacific somewhere and live there?  That might be your only chance of living in a place where you don't have a government or taxes because they are here to stay in the good old USA.  Actually I think some of you would fit in quite well with the coconuts that grow in those places.  LOL

Steve where should we sent the 50% of workers who pay no federal tax? Or do you think the rest of the tax payers should foot the bill for them? I think those coconuts got in their boats and came here so we could support them. So 50% of workers pay no federal tax, the gov't misappropriates our tax dollars, most of the state gov't, county and local gov'ts are in debt. You think this is a good system? Who pays for all this mess the tax payers.

Dave

[Mr VJP]

Virgil, why don't you tell us why you do trust the government?  Do you believe it is your friend?

The EPA, FDA, FAA, etc., etc.- all government agencies that make our lives better and safer.  Do I have blind faith in anyone or anything, especially government?- of course not.  I am a skeptic by nature.  I believe in questioning everything.  However, I think there's a big difference between being skeptical and being suspicious or paranoid.  And, I think there's no difference between the fool who believes everything he's told and the fool who refuses to believe anything.

As far as the point about home ownership and taxes- are you saying that you should be able to refuse to pay taxes without consequences?  That's absurd.  As far as my earlier post not addressing gun control issues- this thread has gotten off topic; my post was in response to Dave's earlier post.

Perhaps you never considered how many regulations these agencies have implemented that are costing you a lot of money, as well as controlling your life?  They do some good things, but they also abuse their power in a way that negatively affects the quality of your life.

[steve863]

If some of you don't like government, taxes and things like that, why don't you get into your row boats and invade an uninhabited island in the south pacific somewhere and live there?  That might be your only chance of living in a place where you don't have a government or taxes because they are here to stay in the good old USA.  Actually I think some of you would fit in quite well with the coconuts that grow in those places.  LOL

Steve where should we sent the 50% of workers who pay no federal tax? Or do you think the rest of the tax payers should foot the bill for them? I think those coconuts got in their boats and came here so we could support them. So 50% of workers pay no federal tax, the gov't misappropriates our tax dollars, most of the state gov't, county and local gov'ts are in debt. You think this is a good system? Who pays for all this mess the tax payers.

Dave

Nope, never said it was an efficient system, only that it's the system that is here to stay.  Constantly bitching about it really won't solve anything.  You can vote different people into office, but in the long run nothing changes anyway.  This is part of living in a democracy which most of you cherish, yet are dissatisfied with anyway.  What can I tell you guys other than to try to look for a place that might be better?  Your forefathers came here and obviously liked what they saw and stayed.  If you now don't like what this country has become, no one is keeping you prisoner here.  Good luck finding something better.

[WNYBuckHunter]

If some of you don't like government, taxes and things like that, why don't you get into your row boats and invade an uninhabited island in the south pacific somewhere and live there?  That might be your only chance of living in a place where you don't have a government or taxes because they are here to stay in the good old USA.  Actually I think some of you would fit in quite well with the coconuts that grow in those places.  LOL

Steve where should we sent the 50% of workers who pay no federal tax? Or do you think the rest of the tax payers should foot the bill for them? I think those coconuts got in their boats and came here so we could support them. So 50% of workers pay no federal tax, the gov't misappropriates our tax dollars, most of the state gov't, county and local gov'ts are in debt. You think this is a good system? Who pays for all this mess the tax payers.

Dave

Nope, never said it was an efficient system, only that it's the system that is here to stay.  Constantly bitching about it really won't solve anything.  You can vote different people into office, but in the long run nothing changes anyway.  This is part of living in a democracy which most of you cherish, yet are dissatisfied with anyway.  What can I tell you guys other than to try to look for a place that might be better?  Your forefathers came here and obviously liked what they saw and stayed.  If you now don't like what this country has become, no one is keeping you prisoner here.  Good luck finding something better.

So nobody is supposed to complain or express their dissatisfaction with the faults of our system? We are all supposed to fall in, lock step and never even try to change things for the better? You think that this government will always be the same? Wow steve, you dont strike me as a roll over and quit kind of guy, but maybe I have misjudged you. Im starting to think that you arent much of a student of history though.

[Dave]

If some of you don't like government, taxes and things like that, why don't you get into your row boats and invade an uninhabited island in the south pacific somewhere and live there?  That might be your only chance of living in a place where you don't have a government or taxes because they are here to stay in the good old USA.  Actually I think some of you would fit in quite well with the coconuts that grow in those places.  LOL

Steve where should we sent the 50% of workers who pay no federal tax? Or do you think the rest of the tax payers should foot the bill for them? I think those coconuts got in their boats and came here so we could support them. So 50% of workers pay no federal tax, the gov't misappropriates our tax dollars, most of the state gov't, county and local gov'ts are in debt. You think this is a good system? Who pays for all this mess the tax payers.

Dave

Nope, never said it was an efficient system, only that it's the system that is here to stay.  Constantly bitching about it really won't solve anything.  You can vote different people into office, but in the long run nothing changes anyway.  This is part of living in a democracy which most of you cherish, yet are dissatisfied with anyway.  What can I tell you guys other than to try to look for a place that might be better?  Your forefathers came here and obviously liked what they saw and stayed.  If you now don't like what this country has become, no one is keeping you prisoner here.  Good luck finding something better.

Steve, I do know of a group of people living in the good old USA who don't complain. You can find them every night crossing our southern borders. They like that we don't enforce our laws and they don't have to pay taxes. Heck they get free medical , some states give them college tuition breaks and even a drivers license. So I wonder what we have to be complaining about?

Dave

[steve863]

If some of you don't like government, taxes and things like that, why don't you get into your row boats and invade an uninhabited island in the south pacific somewhere and live there?  That might be your only chance of living in a place where you don't have a government or taxes because they are here to stay in the good old USA.  Actually I think some of you would fit in quite well with the coconuts that grow in those places.  LOL

Steve where should we sent the 50% of workers who pay no federal tax? Or do you think the rest of the tax payers should foot the bill for them? I think those coconuts got in their boats and came here so we could support them. So 50% of workers pay no federal tax, the gov't misappropriates our tax dollars, most of the state gov't, county and local gov'ts are in debt. You think this is a good system? Who pays for all this mess the tax payers.

Dave

Nope, never said it was an efficient system, only that it's the system that is here to stay.  Constantly bitching about it really won't solve anything.  You can vote different people into office, but in the long run nothing changes anyway.  This is part of living in a democracy which most of you cherish, yet are dissatisfied with anyway.  What can I tell you guys other than to try to look for a place that might be better?  Your forefathers came here and obviously liked what they saw and stayed.  If you now don't like what this country has become, no one is keeping you prisoner here.  Good luck finding something better.

So nobody is supposed to complain or express their dissatisfaction with the faults of our system? We are all supposed to fall in, lock step and never even try to change things for the better? You think that this government will always be the same? Wow steve, you dont strike me as a roll over and quit kind of guy, but maybe I have misjudged you. Im starting to think that you arent much of a student of history though.

So how does one change things in your opinion??  You vote someone else into office, try to tell others which way they should vote maybe?  Write letters to your representatives?  Has any of this changed things to EXACTLY the way you want them to be?  There are plenty of different opinions on any issue under the sun in this nation.  You guys realize you will never change everyones mind, don't you?  No, I don't roll over and quit, but I DO realize that society changes it's attitude on many things and will change some more in the future and sometimes for the better and sometimes not.  All the crying in the world won't change these peoples mind into going back to the "old days" like many here want.  When all of us old farts are dead and gone, the next generation will carry things forward the way they see fit for better or for worse.  Only so much we can do to change things or keep things the same.  The prior generation probably thought they were better than us, and now we think we are better than the next generation.  The same story told over and over just like a broken record.

[steve863]

Steve, I do know of a group of people living in the good old USA who don't complain. You can find them every night crossing our southern borders. They like that we don't enforce our laws and they don't have to pay taxes. Heck they get free medical , some states give them college tuition breaks and even a drivers license. So I wonder what we have to be complaining about?

Dave

You can thank our capitalistic system for allowing this.  You know damned well that American business (and even private individuals) likes this cheap labor force that these people provide.  They could care less that tax payers like you have to make up the slack for them.  These same businesses then donate to the campaigns of the people you will eventually vote for, thus JACK $#!+ will ever get done in terms of enforcing immigration laws.  Throughout history of American business it has always profited with immigrants be they legal or illegal.  Once we had droves of people entering this country legally so they used them.  These days we don't have as many coming in legally, so of course they will use the illegals.  So unless you want to change to a system other than a capitalistic one, I see very little hope for you on this issue.

[Elmo]

Wow.  Finally catching up to this thread so forgive me if I'm behind.

1. I support some gun laws but I do agree that some are just ridiculous.  I live in the strictest city in the country (NYC) and I grew up in the Bronx in the middle of the crack era.  I've been held up at gun point 4 times in my life, had my hands on maybe dozen illegal guns before my 16th birthday.  The system is broken but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a system.  It just needs to be fixed.  First, let's take the phrase "a lock only keeps an honest man honest".  Having strict gun laws doesn't stop the criminals from obtaining guns but it stops those who are on the fence about it.  But yes, some of the laws are down right ridiculous.  Forget that I hate the fact I can't own a pistol...did you know I can't own a sling shot or a blowgun?  Yeah...I'm waiting to see the day someone walks into a bank and holds it up with a blowgun.

2. Allow people to buy guns reduces crimes.  Maybe in some area.  Maybe not.  I don't know.  I looked at the statistics posted by Elmer Fudd (I attached the chart pulled from the site) and I find it to be inconclusive.  If I can recall, it shows that a gun law was set in 1977, gun related crime jumped dramatically starting in 1986 (crack/cocaine era), kept climbing and peak at 1992 then started to drop.  Gun ban was lifted in 2008 while the statistics had pretty much drop close to pre 1977 levels but continued to drop after that.  Again, I am not arguing for or against the statement.  I'm just saying I'm not getting that from this chart.  I do recall once as a child someone in my neighborhood got robbed because he had guns and the criminals wanted them.  If you can argue that criminal will get guns anyway and ingore those on the fence about it then you also have to acknowledge the criminals who holds a shootout that still happens regularly now in one of my old friends neighborhoods.  They don't care if you have a gun.  They're not afraid of it.  Especially after the way rappers like 50 Cent and The Game glorify about how many times they've been shot.

3. I am all for the NICS checks.  Go ahead.  I'm a law-abiding, tax paying, legal citizen.  You can check all you want.  Sure it took 4 months but I can wait.  What's the rush?  I got my guns in the end eventually anyway.  If I have to wait 4 months just so that 1 crooked lunatic was denied his firearm then that's my contribution to society.  Did I make a difference?  Ask me that when you ask me if I should vote or not.  The wait is ridiculous but you do realize that they aren't doing a more extensive test than say my brother who got his national top security check passed in like 2 weeks.  It's just that they saw his clearance as a top priority and they'll get to mine when they get to mine.

4. The one problem with the NRA is that they might need a better marketing campaign.  After 9/11 my brother left school to join the army.  I switch jobs and went to work for the Red Cross.  Working for the Red Cross means I had to work with a lot of peace loving liberals.  They associate the NRA with the white supremecist and bible-fanatics.  Now, before everyone starts bashing me for saying this please keep in mind that I am not saying this is what I think.  I am saying that I notice some view the NRA that way and I ask why and how do you change their mindsets?  Someone had said so earlier that a large portion of gun owners are not supporters of NRA.  A good amount of that are the cheap lazy types.  There's also a portions of those that has misconception of what the NRA is about.  Just an off question.  How many NRA advertisements feature a person of minority decent?

[virgil]

Careful Toruk.  On this site, showing any tolerance for gun control of any kind, and not pledging allegiance to the NRA is likely to get you lumped in with us fence-sitting liberal utopians by the 'cold dead hands' boys.  Don't say I didn't warn you.

[steve863]

I find Toruk's post very interesting, especially since it comes from someone who lived in a rough neighborhood where illegal guns were a part of every day life.  Some people think that having NO gun laws and arming everyone is the solution and that it would reduce crime in such areas and make things better.  Maybe if they actually lived in such places they would think differently?

As far as the NRA having a minority spokesperson, I know they had ex basketball player Karl Malone on one of their ads a few years back.  In general I think most minority groups, be they black, hispanic, asian or other are accepting of common sense gun laws, thus they will not jump on the NRA bandwagon, so having a minority spokesperson probably won't help them much anyways.

[Elmo]

One other observation I forgot to point out were the fact most of the illegal guns I've seen were old rusted and beat-up.  Rare were the shiny nickel-plated ones you see in the movies.  Maybe criminal don't know how to properly care for their guns or maybe it was people who didn't know what to do with their unwanted firearms and the drug dealer down the block is offering 4 hits for the old revolver?  People need to be more accountable for how they dispose of firearms.

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/140398/latest-nypd-gun-buyback-program-collects-354-weapons

[virgil]

I agree that his post was interesting.  The gun guys make the point that it's not a lack of gun laws that is the problem, it's the lack of enforcement.  I think it's a lack of both.  As far as the NRA having a minority spokesperson, I think the NRA knows who their audience is and will be careful to pick someone that their members can identify with.

[steve863]

As far as the NRA having a minority spokesperson, I think the NRA knows who their audience is and will be careful to pick someone that their members can identify with.

Yeah, sort of like what Nugent brings in for them.  LOL

[Dave]

I find Toruk's post very interesting, especially since it comes from someone who lived in a rough neighborhood where illegal guns were a part of every day life.  Some people think that having NO gun laws and arming everyone is the solution and that it would reduce crime in such areas and make things better.  Maybe if they actually lived in such places they would think differently?

As far as the NRA having a minority spokesperson, I know they had ex basketball player Karl Malone on one of their ads a few years back.  In general I think most minority groups, be they black, hispanic, asian or other are accepting of common sense gun laws, thus they will not jump on the NRA bandwagon, so having a minority spokesperson probably won't help them much anyways.

Maybe you can get Plexico Bourris? I hard he is out of jail. After he takes an NRA gun safety course. Sorry if I spelled his name wrong :'(

Dave

[virgil]

Dick Cheney is probably available.

[virgil]

Maybe you can get Plexico Bourris? I hard he is out of jail. After he takes an NRA gun safety course. Sorry if I spelled his name wrong http://huntingny.com/forums/Smileys/akyhne/cry.gif[/img]

Plaxico Burris is a convicted felon who has already proven to have no respect for gun laws and is a danger to himself and others.  Does that eliminate him or make him the perfect candidate?

[Dave]

Maybe you can get Plexico Bourris? I hard he is out of jail. After he takes an NRA gun safety course. Sorry if I spelled his name wrong http://huntingny.com/forums/Smileys/akyhne/cry.gif[/img]

Plaxico Burris is a convicted felon who has already proven to have no respect for gun laws and is a danger to himself and others.  Does that eliminate him or make him the perfect candidate?

Lighten up, just a joke.

Dave