Gun Ownership Up & Violent Crime Down per FBI

[WNYBuckHunter]

And by the way, not that I agree with Washington DC's gun law, but it actually DOES work.  It's the bordering states that have loose gun laws that help funnel the guns in, not the strict one in Washington.

The DC bans do not work at all, if they did, there would be no gun crime in DC. You do realize that after the DC bans were put into place, their murder rate increased by 51% while the national murder rate decreased by 35%, right? How exactly can you say the bans worked in any way other than the opposite way they were touted? The criminals have the guns there, not the law abiding citizens and it emboldens them.

Face it, most guns that are in the hands of criminals do not get there from Joe Gunowner selling them to the criminals, they come in from gun runners and illegal arms dealers, theft, etc. Just because something leaves the factory legally, means nothing. All cars leave their factories legally, but how many are used illegally to commit various crimes ranging from speeding to murder? Sorry, but BS laws like microstamping, etc do nothing other than to harass legal gun owners.

[steve863]

Face it, most guns that are in the hands of criminals do not get there from Joe Gunowner selling them to the criminals, they come in from gun runners and illegal arms dealers, theft, etc. Just because something leaves the factory legally, means nothing. All cars leave their factories legally, but how many are used illegally to commit various crimes ranging from speeding to murder? Sorry, but BS laws like microstamping, etc do nothing other than to harass legal gun owners.

Comparing cars to guns is an extremely weak comparison.  Cars were designed to transport people, guns were designed to stop or kill something.  Big difference.  I could strangle someone with the same rope that I hang my laundry on, but the ropes primary use is for something other than stopping or killing.  One can't argue that a gun was designed for anything other than putting a projectile thru something at a considerable velocity.  Surely one of the most effective killing machines ever designed, so it will take a LOT of convincing to those who don't own them (and even to many who do like myself) that they are just innocent objects that need no regulation.

[Mr VJP]

If all guns were eliminated totally, GUN crime would drop to zero.  But murder, rape and robbery would not decline at all.  In fact it would increase because criminals would know they don't have to fear their victims at all.

This has been proven again and again every where it has been done.  Without guns, the innocent are left to be slaughtered.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Face it, most guns that are in the hands of criminals do not get there from Joe Gunowner selling them to the criminals, they come in from gun runners and illegal arms dealers, theft, etc. Just because something leaves the factory legally, means nothing. All cars leave their factories legally, but how many are used illegally to commit various crimes ranging from speeding to murder? Sorry, but BS laws like microstamping, etc do nothing other than to harass legal gun owners.

Comparing cars to guns is an extremely weak comparison.  Cars were designed to transport people, guns were designed to stop or kill something.  Big difference.  I could strangle someone with the same rope that I hang my laundry on, but the ropes primary use is for something other than stopping or killing.  One can't argue that a gun was designed for anything other than putting a projectile thru something at a considerable velocity.  Surely one of the most effective killing machines ever designed, so it will take a LOT of convincing to those who don't own them (and even to many who do like myself) that they are just innocent objects that need no regulation.

In the way I compared them, it is completely relevant. Although capable of doing so, guns are not designed and built with the intentions of someone committing a crime with them or becoming part of the illegal gun trade. The primary intended use of most guns is hunting or target practice.

Again, I am not saying there should be no regulation, I am saying that all of the necessary regulation is already in place and that most of the newer gun laws that they are trying to put in place are nothing more than harassment of legal, law abiding gun owners.

[virgil]

Again, I am not saying there should be no regulation, I am saying that all of the necessary regulation is already in place and that most of the newer gun laws that they are trying to put in place are nothing more than harassment of legal, law abiding gun owners.

If all of the 'necessary regulation' is already in place, why do we still have such a problem?  or, do you not feel that there is a problem?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Simple.....execution,enforcement and prosicution.....or better yet.....lack of

[Dave]

Face it, most guns that are in the hands of criminals do not get there from Joe Gunowner selling them to the criminals, they come in from gun runners and illegal arms dealers, theft, etc. Just because something leaves the factory legally, means nothing. All cars leave their factories legally, but how many are used illegally to commit various crimes ranging from speeding to murder? Sorry, but BS laws like microstamping, etc do nothing other than to harass legal gun owners.

Comparing cars to guns is an extremely weak comparison.  Cars were designed to transport people, guns were designed to stop or kill something.  Big difference.  I could strangle someone with the same rope that I hang my laundry on, but the ropes primary use is for something other than stopping or killing.  One can't argue that a gun was designed for anything other than putting a projectile thru something at a considerable velocity.  Surely one of the most effective killing machines ever designed, so it will take a LOT of convincing to those who don't own them (and even to many who do like myself) that they are just innocent objects that need no regulation.

How come more people every year are killed by automobiles than guns. What are we doing about that?

  Dave

[Dave]

Again, I am not saying there should be no regulation, I am saying that all of the necessary regulation is already in place and that most of the newer gun laws that they are trying to put in place are nothing more than harassment of legal, law abiding gun owners.

If all of the 'necessary regulation' is already in place, why do we still have such a problem?  or, do you not feel that there is a problem?

The problem is the criminals whether you want to face the facts or not, quit chasing your tail and trying to blame someone else like the law abiding gun owners. Seem like you really don't want the answer just cause unnecessary banter.

Dave

[Doc]

If all of the 'necessary regulation' is already in place, why do we still have such a problem?  or, do you not feel that there is a problem?

Because what you are trying to regulate involves behavior. Criminal acts are behaviors. Regulation of inanimate objects can only have extremely limited effects on behavior. At some point redundancy in law making begins to miss the point and simply becomes a burden on law abiding citizens. That is the state of gun regulation today. And that is why continuing with the lunacy of filling law books with worthless gun-restricting laws is a futile exercise doomed to be as ineffective as the previous laws.

We all have heard the definition of insanity as doing the same things over and over and expecting different results...... Well here we have a classic example of exactly that.

[Mr VJP]

Sure we have a problem.  We have a crime problem caused by criminals.  Taking guns out of the hands of the victims and potential victims will not solve the problem, it will make it worse.

With the bad economy, high unemployment, illegal immigration, gangs and drugs, this problem is going to get a lot worse.  Americans know it, and that is why gun sales are at an all time high.  They know no one can protect you but yourself.  So why is the government making it so hard for average Americans to be able to defend themselves?  Hell, the government frequently prosecutes people who have had the misfortune to have to kill someone in self defense!

[nyantler]

That's the best response you could come up with??  Why don't you address the issue that ALL guns leave the manufacturing plants legally, yet end up in criminals hands anyway??  Bringing up liquor during prohibition is a lame comparison.  Lets keep this to the subject at hand.  And by the way, not that I agree with Washington DC's gun law, but it actually DOES work.  It's the bordering states that have loose gun laws that help funnel the guns in, not the strict one in Washington.

That makes no sense...lol... the laws in Washington do work, but the criminals are still getting guns? You just proved my point... Washington, even with its strict no gun policy, still hasn't kept guns out of the hands of criminals... what does it matter where they come from?... So lets just say Washington didn't have strict gun laws... the criminals would still have guns. So, that would mean with or without the strict laws they still would have guns .... hmmm .. now tell me again how their strict gun laws are working. Oh Yeah, It keeps the guns out of the law abiding citizens hands... because they are the ones selling the guns to criminals... hmmm... no that can't be true... because the citizens don't have any guns with the strict laws... Oh NO.. that means the criminals are getting them somewhere else... Oh I get it... you must be joking... you almost had me there Steve

[WNYBuckHunter]

Again, I am not saying there should be no regulation, I am saying that all of the necessary regulation is already in place and that most of the newer gun laws that they are trying to put in place are nothing more than harassment of legal, law abiding gun owners.

If all of the 'necessary regulation' is already in place, why do we still have such a problem?  or, do you not feel that there is a problem?

The problem is not in the availability of guns, its in the enforcement of the laws that are already in place. Also, if something exists and there is an opportunity to misuse it, someone will find a way to do just that, no matter what the law says. So in the case of guns, why continue to limit the ability of the legal law abiding citizen to defend themselves against those that choose to misuse them?

Like Ive said before, gun laws do not keep illegal guns out of the hands of criminals, they keep law abiding citizens from owning certain guns.

[nyantler]

WNY... I guess we can keep telling them that the FACT is that gun laws DO NOT work to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals or stop gun crimes... it has been proven time and time again.... we can show them that the same anti-gun people and organizations are the ones lobbying for these increased gun laws not the American majority...But,  I guess the facts don't matter to some people.

And yes virgil.. there is a gun problem in America... and it's gotten worse... and keeps getting worse everytime a new gun law is adopted that takes away the ownership right of law abiding American citizens...gun crimes keep rising as new gun laws are adopted... hard to dispute that trend.

[steve863]

That's the best response you could come up with??  Why don't you address the issue that ALL guns leave the manufacturing plants legally, yet end up in criminals hands anyway??  Bringing up liquor during prohibition is a lame comparison.  Lets keep this to the subject at hand.  And by the way, not that I agree with Washington DC's gun law, but it actually DOES work.  It's the bordering states that have loose gun laws that help funnel the guns in, not the strict one in Washington.

That makes no sense...lol... the laws in Washington do work, but the criminals are still getting guns? You just proved my point... Washington, even with its strict no gun policy, still hasn't kept guns out of the hands of criminals... what does it matter where they come from?... So lets just say Washington didn't have strict gun laws... the criminals would still have guns. So, that would mean with or without the strict laws they still would have guns .... hmmm .. now tell me again how their strict gun laws are working. Oh Yeah, It keeps the guns out of the law abiding citizens hands... because they are the ones selling the guns to criminals... hmmm... no that can't be true... because the citizens don't have any guns with the strict laws... Oh NO.. that means the criminals are getting them somewhere else... Oh I get it... you must be joking... you almost had me there Steve

You obviously have trouble seeing past your own shadow.  The problem is that gun laws are not uniform in this country.  Uniformity is what is needed.  You can dilly dally around the subject all you want.  It is up to YOUR type to prove to the rest of society that gun owners are responsible enough to implement and accept regulations that will at least put some safeguards that guns don't fall into the wrong hands.  NO, any law won't work in all cases, but having NO laws like YOU would prefer will work even less.  You think society should have total trust in you owning any gun you want with NO questions asked.  Good luck with you thinking that!  With some of the senseless, bullheaded rants you guys exhibit here, I as a gun owner don't even have much faith in you, so why in hell should anyone else?? LOL

[virgil]

And yes virgil.. there is a gun problem in America... and it's gotten worse... and keeps getting worse everytime a new gun law is adopted that takes away the ownership right of law abiding American citizens...gun crimes keep rising as new gun laws are adopted... hard to dispute that trend.

A trend does not establish cause.  You interpret the trend according to your own agenda.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

And yes virgil.. there is a gun problem in America... and it's gotten worse... and keeps getting worse everytime a new gun law is adopted that takes away the ownership right of law abiding American citizens...gun crimes keep rising as new gun laws are adopted... hard to dispute that trend.

A trend does not establish cause.  You interpret the trend according to your own agenda.

But it is valid logic to admit that the crime has gone up even with the gun laws. So the conclusion that they have not achieved their effect is also valid, in any logical analysis.

Steve did hit it on the head that anything done HAS to be on a national level. But in order for me to support any legislation it would have to focus on the cause and implement the appropriate measures focused at the criminals and not the general citizens. I can whole heartedly support a verification system that is not so costly that the general public can afford it, is conducted in a timely manner and is objective not at the whim of an agency or a liberal judge. Gun ownership is a right. Responsible gun ownership is a responsibilitywe must exercise to assure that right.

I know we have beat the constitutionality of gun ownership to death here, but one side note. I find it odd that thte same folks in the national spot light that say the constitution should be "evaluated" in a current light are the same ones that are inflexible with some of the other constitutional guarantess.......sure burn the flag.....it is freedom of speech and so forth.

[Mr VJP]

Take a look at England and Australia.  They impemented a total gun ban, that is uniform across the country.  Soon after, gun crimes rose dramatically.  Why?  Because victims became sheep to be sheered by the criminals with no way to prevent it.

Uniform gun bans in America would do the same.

Here's my suggestion, allow any American to get checked out by the Feds in a proper NICS manner, and do it within 1 month.  If that American has no felony convictions, that American passes, give that person an I.D. card that allows them to buy whatever gun they want, any size magazine they want, any ammo they want, and as many as they want, for the rest of their lives, uness they commit a crime that revokes their I.D.

That would identify who should be able to own guns and simplify all of this BS nickle and dime legislation that is all over the board.  Currently it is so confusing, no one can tell what is legal without a lawyer.  That seems to be the reason for it to begin with.  Make it so confusing, people won't want to even attempt to navigate it.  Anyone have a problem with that bit of common sense?

Anyone not allowed to own a firearm who is caught in possession of one should be jailed for 10 years or more, no exception, no plea bargains and no parole.  Problem solved, as far a gun crime goes.

But don't expect murder, rape and robbery to vanish, because those crimes have nothing to do with guns, other than they are currently used in those crimes.

[steve863]

Here's my suggestion, allow any American to get checked out by the Feds in a proper NICS manner, and do it within 1 month.  If that American has no felony convictions, that American passes, give that person an I.D. card that allows them to buy whatever gun they want, any size magazine they want, any ammo they want, and as many as they want, for the rest of their lives, uness they commit a crime that revokes their I.D.

Miracles DO happen I guess.  The first post of yours that shows some level of sanity.  What also needs to be added to this is that the same needs to apply to private sales.  What good does it do if NICS checks are required for purchases from dealers, if you can buy and sell it privately with NO background check?  I have NO doubt that this system WOULD keep guns away from the criminal element and there would be a better checks and balance to exactly how they are getting them.  Try passing this by the NRA, though!  They would have a huge $#!+ fit over anyone even suggesting something like this.  So tell me that they aren't also part of the problem here??

[WNYBuckHunter]

You can dilly dally around the subject all you want.  It is up to YOUR type to prove to the rest of society that gun owners are responsible enough to implement and accept regulations that will at least put some safeguards that guns don't fall into the wrong hands.

steve, this is where you fail to see the forest through the trees. The regulations that are already in place are more than enough if they were enforced.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Here's my suggestion, allow any American to get checked out by the Feds in a proper NICS manner, and do it within 1 month.  If that American has no felony convictions, that American passes, give that person an I.D. card that allows them to buy whatever gun they want, any size magazine they want, any ammo they want, and as many as they want, for the rest of their lives, uness they commit a crime that revokes their I.D.

Miracles DO happen I guess.  The first post of yours that shows some level of sanity.  What also needs to be added to this is that the same needs to apply to private sales.  What good does it do if NICS checks are required for purchases from dealers, if you can buy and sell it privately with NO background check?  I have NO doubt that this system WOULD keep guns away from the criminal element and there would be a better checks and balance to exactly how they are getting them.  Try passing this by the NRA, though!  They would have a huge $#!+ fit over anyone even suggesting something like this.  So tell me that they aren't also part of the problem here??

The only way that you could control private sales would be to require registration of every gun, accessory, magazine and bullet you own. You want that?

Even then, it would not be a perfect system, guns still get stolen, how exactly do you propose that we control that? Require any gun owner to have an un-movable safe in their home and have it locked at all times? What about when you are transporting the weapon(s)? How do you assure no theft could occur then?

My point is that there is NO perfect system, and NO way to keep illegal guns out of criminal's hands. Its been proven multiple times, in multiple places with many many types of gun control systems and laws, even total outright bans.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have been thinking of the private sale and gun registration topic alot. I think that any private sale should require what I have done in the personal sales I have been involved in...with no regulation requiring it. I have purchased and sold guns and done the same think. written bill of sale with make model and serial number on it. I als make sure I see photo ID and make the person andd myself sign. Just makes good sense. If I am buying a gun I want to have the information if it ever turns out the gun I am buying ends up being hot....or the one I am selling is used in a crime.

Same could be done using the Naton ID and no formal registration is required. Fine individuals that have guns that pass through their hands without having checked the ID and recorded the information.

Just a thought.

[virgil]

The only way that you could control private sales would be to require registration of every gun, accessory, magazine and bullet you own. You want that?

Why exactly are so many of you guys opposed to the idea of registering our guns.  I wouldn't have a problem with it.  But, I've gotten the impression that those opposed to gun laws hate the idea- i'm curious as to why.  It seems to work for cars, why not guns?

[steve863]

You can dilly dally around the subject all you want.  It is up to YOUR type to prove to the rest of society that gun owners are responsible enough to implement and accept regulations that will at least put some safeguards that guns don't fall into the wrong hands.

steve, this is where you fail to see the forest through the trees. The regulations that are already in place are more than enough if they were enforced.

What CAN be enforced?  You have a maze of laws, none of which are uniform across state lines.  Have some sort of national system where one set of laws is the law of the land and we will be getting somewhere.  As the main representative of gun owners the NRA should be pushing for this sort of gun law reform, instead of having coronaries at the mere mention of any gun law.  If they represent gun owners and want the rest of society to accept us as responsible citizens who don't want guns to easily fall into the wrong hands, it would be to the gun owners benefit to propose such sensibility.  I won't be holding my breath though.  I have often thought that it wouldn't be to their financial benefit if some sort of sane law was devised where it would benefit gun owners in the long run and at the same time make it tougher for criminals to get guns.  That's the reason NOTHING ever get solved in this country.  Too many greedy scumbags making money on both sides of any issue for it to ever come to a sensible resolution.

[steve863]

I have been thinking of the private sale and gun registration topic alot. I think that any private sale should require what I have done in the personal sales I have been involved in...with no regulation requiring it. I have purchased and sold guns and done the same think. written bill of sale with make model and serial number on it. I als make sure I see photo ID and make the person andd myself sign. Just makes good sense. If I am buying a gun I want to have the information if it ever turns out the gun I am buying ends up being hot....or the one I am selling is used in a crime.

Same could be done using the Naton ID and no formal registration is required. Fine individuals that have guns that pass through their hands without having checked the ID and recorded the information.

Just a thought.

Agreed!  It really need not be complicated at all and in this computer age, this could all work quite easily.  Some people here are ready to string up anyone up who utters "gun control", when in fact new gun control can mean a vast improvement over the nonsensical laws we currently have, most of which could be scrapped.  I can't fathom why anyone would think this wouldn't be to the best interest of gun ownership in this country?  Like I said, the idiots at the NRA should be pushing this.  Maybe then they would actually get some respect from the rest of society, instead of having the rap they currently have.  It will take compromise on everyones part, but without compromise NOTHING ever gets done.  Just clinging to the same worn out tune will not get us anywhere in my opinion.

[wztirem]

Good Point.

Think about this, as a gun owner I believe that a uniform set of  laws can be much more easily enforced and more effectively defended by the gun lobby and all progun individuals to protect our second amendment rights. The present system is broken, gun owners are divided, the anti gun lobby can pick and choose their battles. What is needed is a line in the sand which we as gun owners (majority) can agree upon. I for one would defend such a position.