Killing Bucks with poor genetics

[WNYBuckHunter]

So ARs dont help the buck/doe ratio. Exactly my point. The only thing that will help that is to kill does.

AR's need doe kill in order to balance ratios... without AR's and only dmp's the process is much slower and will never get ratios very close... in the first couple years when buck kill is usually at its lowest during AR's there will be a huge gap closing in buck:doe ratio .. after a few years buck kill begins to rise again... but by then ratios are much better balanced and adjustments can be made to the number of dmps issued... of course the challenge is that all this will play out diffently in different areas... making it tough to do on a state wide level... and most likely could not be done in most of the Adirondack Park.

I agree with that. My overall point had to do with ARs not being a fix all for anything. They would need to be combined with a few other things to become even close to effective. Like GJS has said, take a good look at Ohio, very good hunting, something for everyone and all of that has been done with zero ARs. Instead of trying all of the novelty programs, why not just make the move to a proven system?

[ejp419]

So how do AR's not help the buck to doe ratio oh wise one?

Shooting older bucks doesnt get rid of does, smartass.

Actually it does. If all the guys shooting spikes and four pointers shot a older buck or a doe. The amount of older bucks will never be as great as the number of yearling bucks, so therefore shooting older bucks and does does balance out the herd. I don't see where your confused.

[Localqdm]

count my vote for adopting Ohio's management system.

just passing bucks would IMPROVE ratio, though it wouldn't even it if no more does were shot.

I'm all for passing young ones, but don't believe anywhere in this country (outside of a fence) has 12:1 ratio's before season. Its theoretically impossible unless everyone intentionally shot all the button bucks last yr.  After opening day, well thats another story. :'(

[nyantler]

So ARs dont help the buck/doe ratio. Exactly my point. The only thing that will help that is to kill does.

AR's need doe kill in order to balance ratios... without AR's and only dmp's the process is much slower and will never get ratios very close... in the first couple years when buck kill is usually at its lowest during AR's there will be a huge gap closing in buck:doe ratio .. after a few years buck kill begins to rise again... but by then ratios are much better balanced and adjustments can be made to the number of dmps issued... of course the challenge is that all this will play out diffently in different areas... making it tough to do on a state wide level... and most likely could not be done in most of the Adirondack Park.

I agree with that. My overall point had to do with ARs not being a fix all for anything. They would need to be combined with a few other things to become even close to effective. Like GJS has said, take a good look at Ohio, very good hunting, something for everyone and all of that has been done with zero ARs. Instead of trying all of the novelty programs, why not just make the move to a proven system?

Ohio hunters were and are very coperative with the program that Ohio adopted... try to implement it here in NY and see what the reactions are among hunters... Hunters here have the same reaction to any proposal made... I promise you there will be a huge uproar somewhere in the hunting community if we tried to go the way of Ohio..

[G-Man]

All this can be done volentarialy.. the real question is why it isn't? Why do people not pass up younger deer for older ones??

[nyantler]

All this can be done volentarialy.. the real question is why it isn't? Why do people not pass up younger deer for older ones??

I'm a firm believer that most hunters would rather cut their tongue out than have to tell their buddies they didn't kill a buck...

[nyantler]

count my vote for adopting Ohio's management system.

just passing bucks would IMPROVE ratio, though it wouldn't even it if no more does were shot.

I'm all for passing young ones, but don't believe anywhere in this country (outside of a fence) has 12:1 ratio's before season. Its theoretically impossible unless everyone intentionally shot all the button bucks last yr.  After opening day, well thats another story. :'(

Ohio's program works well for them.. I think it would be great here... I'm not sure NYers would really like the one buck rule or having to pay $15 for a doe permit... plus $24 for a license.. $19 for deer permit... and if you're a turkey hunter you have to by a permit for spring and fall at $24 a piece... throw in fishing and you're paying more than the super sportsman here...All that would go over like a lead balloon...

As for the before season ratio.. it is theoretically possible... because of the average ratio buck to doe fawns born(51% bucks: 49%does) if you ended the season with 12:1... you would be very close to that same number come hunting season the following year.

[gjs4]

Ars are the simplest feasible way to raise the age of bucks. They are a good starting point but the system needs so much more.

I seriously pose the question? What aspects of our seasons are based on biology? Please think this out before a response.

Couple more: How many of you believe the stats the state produces on deer kills? ever see one for the popution of whiteails in your area? Any reason to call bucks less than 3" antlerless deer?

Most guys do not even realize the caliber of bucks that live in NY, let alone what we could have for a healthier herd and trophy bucks if the system was properly adjusted.

My fear is the state will have too many deer killed in some areas and/or a communicable disease will take hold of others. Thats why numbers matter folks. And when it comes to bucks- if oyu need a law to let a 3 pointer go during the SZ gun season; you do not understand ecology or care about conservation imo

[G-Man]

No ar's are not the simplist way to raise the age of bucks... no buck season only doe would be easiest!! no looking to see if it had points at all ..any thing on its head...dont shoot!!!  but then we would have a revolt in nys...lol..  Joe hit it most people would give up their first born to get a buck ..the though of not being able to shoot a buck...oh the horror!!!! course eveyone that shoots a little buck for meat would be happy still they could shoot does...wait cant they do that now???? :

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Actually G....many can't. Drop yourself into some NZ areas for a few seasons. It is easy to say this but excepth for the lake ontario and st lawrence rim.....it is hard hunting with many restless days.....and no doe tags

[gjs4]

simplest in a feasible manner- the best way would be educate hunters....

Whitetail deer numbers typically follow soil fertility...and the NZ is so lacking there... i am speaking for what I know (which is a novel premise on here)

[WNYBuckHunter]

So how do AR's not help the buck to doe ratio oh wise one?

Shooting older bucks doesnt get rid of does, smartass.

Actually it does. If all the guys shooting spikes and four pointers shot a older buck or a doe. The amount of older bucks will never be as great as the number of yearling bucks, so therefore shooting older bucks and does does balance out the herd. I don't see where your confused.

Sorry, but just implementation of ARs does not accomplish what you are talking about. You would need to completely revamp the DMP system so that all hunters would be guaranteed a doe permit, and in some areas of the state, thats just not possible. Again, shooting older buck does not get rid of does.

[WNYBuckHunter]

All this can be done volentarialy.. the real question is why it isn't? Why do people not pass up younger deer for older ones??

Because many dont care how big a deer's antlers are.

[gjs4]

All this can be done volentarialy.. the real question is why it isn't? Why do people not pass up younger deer for older ones??

Because many dont care how big a deer's antlers are.

will change that to

Many dont care about anything beyond the thrill of a kill or two.

Not just big bucks being left out...herd health and numbers matter too.

Redundantly- the state even urges young bucks being past and folks cant do it..... it is all about their urge to shoot something

[Pygmy]

So what is it that is so wrong with having the the urge to shoot something, especially if it is good to eat ?

Many hunters have limited time to hunt.

Also, many of us are not deer hunting fanatics like some of you, and would just as soon spend most of our time doing something other than deer hunting, like shooting waterfowl, fall turkeys, squirrels and rabbits, fall fishing, etc.

We still like the opportunity to hunt deer a few days a year with a reasonable chance to kill a deer or two for the freezer.

We pay our license fees just like the trophy hunting elitists do.

[bubba]

So what is it that is so wrong with having the the urge to shoot something, especially if it is good to eat ?

Many hunters have limited time to hunt.

Also, many of us are not deer hunting fanatics like some of you, and would just as soon spend most of our time doing something other than deer hunting, like shooting waterfowl, fall turkeys, squirrels and rabbits, fall fishing, etc.

We still like the opportunity to hunt deer a few days a year with a reasonable chance to kill a deer or two for the freezer.

as previously stated, there is a big difference between a hunter and a person who hunts.

We pay our license fees just like the trophy hunting elitists do.

[Localqdm]

count my vote for adopting Ohio's management system.

just passing bucks would IMPROVE ratio, though it wouldn't even it if no more does were shot.

I'm all for passing young ones, but don't believe anywhere in this country (outside of a fence) has 12:1 ratio's before season. Its theoretically impossible unless everyone intentionally shot all the button bucks last yr.  After opening day, well thats another story. :'(

Ohio's program works well for them.. I think it would be great here... I'm not sure NYers would really like the one buck rule or having to pay $15 for a doe permit... plus $24 for a license.. $19 for deer permit... and if you're a turkey hunter you have to by a permit for spring and fall at $24 a piece... throw in fishing and you're paying more than the super sportsman here...All that would go over like a lead balloon...

As for the before season ratio.. it is theoretically possible... because of the average ratio buck to doe fawns born(51% bucks: 49%does) if you ended the season with 12:1... you would be very close to that same number come hunting season the following year.

No its still impossible.  If you had 100 does and NO, 0, bucks left after season, next year you would have say (just for example of 1 fawn recruited per doe) 50 yearling bucks and 50 yearling does (from this yrs fawns)= a new ratio for next yr of 150 does to 50 antlered 1.5 bucks, or 3:1.  You can repeat this for 100 yrs and it won't change much, unless you discriminately kill buttons or if you have a serious fawn recruitment problem where your herd is drastically shrinking, and then you have bigger issues than buck/doe ratio.  Sure you have to account that some bucks will be hit by cars etc, but you see the point.  Sometimes observed ratios are not accurate.  Often we count fawns as 'does' in observation, and if you are not in the area the batchlor groups are, you are going to miss all the bucks, squewing your ratios.

[gjs4]

so why obide by seasons- they probably taste even better in the summer? WHy follow slot limits since you had to pay for a license?

As for time- thats called prioritization my friend....we all have issues there. Liek the guys who are on these threads crying of starvation so they need to hunt rather than be at work or the grocery store...lol

[Pygmy]

so why obide by seasons- they probably taste even better in the summer? WHy follow slot limits since you had to pay for a license?

As for time- thats called prioritization my friend....we all have issues there. Liek the guys who are on these threads crying of starvation so they need to hunt rather than be at work or the grocery store...lol

  As far as them tasting better in the summer, I wouldn't know. Perhaps you could help me with that one... ...

I have been abiding by the seasons and limits since 1962, Sonny...

If ARs are instituted, I will abide by the law, just as I have abided by PA law since they were put in place down there.

It's just that a lot of people (probably the majority) enjoy hunting  but for whatever reason they may not be as passionate about it as you and I are. These people support our sport and a lot of them are tickled pink just to get a buck (any buck) every couple of years. I don't view ARs as a cure all for general health of the deer herd, as some advocates portray it. I view it as a way for guys who interested in killing only big bucks to have MORE big bucks to hunt.

[gjs4]

Glad youre a legal guy. Were you admittly against them in PA too? How have they impacted your hunting enjoyment there?

It seems that those hunting here for a while are those who oppose all things change.....where the few new comers we have are in favor; ever consider letting someone-else have a turn with a new wish list? Not trying to be rude (honestly)..and I am a mid thirties proud father/husband of two that works hard at work and home...not a punk kid or know it all by any means. I have spent a lot of time learning and hunting deer (an dupland) but am all about the experience- not the kill...i shoot my limit of does yearly and have tagged 2 bucks in the past years....my only regret in my hunting career is blasting all the little ones when i first got into the sport.  Through some good education I started seeing older deer...and then it all changed....just my thought train thats all

[Pygmy]

No, I certainly don't resist all change, in fact I have heartily embraced some recent changes that many people resisted, such as legalizing rifles in some southern tier counties and legalizing Sunday hunting in the SZ.

As far as the ARs in PA I do see more bucks because those spikes and forkies aren't getting whacked by some other guy before they get to me. It's a lot tougher to kill a buck...It is often relatively easy to identify a deer from a hunter and a buck from a doe in the woods, but it can be a lot more difficult to make sure that buck has 3 points per side.

I haven't seen much change as far as total numbers of deer seen. The taxidermists claim that more big bucks are being brought in, and they should know. Once again it has improved hunting for BIGGER bucks, but I'm not sure it has improved the overall  health of the herd or the hunting experience for the average hunter.

[burmjohn]

So what is it that is so wrong with having the the urge to shoot something, especially if it is good to eat ?

Many hunters have limited time to hunt.

Also, many of us are not deer hunting fanatics like some of you, and would just as soon spend most of our time doing something other than deer hunting, like shooting waterfowl, fall turkeys, squirrels and rabbits, fall fishing, etc.

We still like the opportunity to hunt deer a few days a year with a reasonable chance to kill a deer or two for the freezer.

We pay our license fees just like the trophy hunting elitists do.

The trophy hunting elitists crap is getting old.

[JCTheGC]

So what is it that is so wrong with having the the urge to shoot something, especially if it is good to eat ?

Many hunters have limited time to hunt.

Also, many of us are not deer hunting fanatics like some of you, and would just as soon spend most of our time doing something other than deer hunting, like shooting waterfowl, fall turkeys, squirrels and rabbits, fall fishing, etc.

We still like the opportunity to hunt deer a few days a year with a reasonable chance to kill a deer or two for the freezer.

We pay our license fees just like the trophy hunting elitists do.

The trophy hunting elitists crap is getting old.

I agree, really old, its the only argument (a false one at that) that they can come up with.  If letting a 1.5 walk is trophy killing thats news to me.  Kind of sad they are opposed to letting the little ones walk.

[ejp419]

So how do AR's not help the buck to doe ratio oh wise one?

Shooting older bucks doesnt get rid of does, smartass.

Actually it does. If all the guys shooting spikes and four pointers shot a older buck or a doe. The amount of older bucks will never be as great as the number of yearling bucks, so therefore shooting older bucks and does does balance out the herd. I don't see where your confused.

Sorry, but just implementation of ARs does not accomplish what you are talking about. You would need to completely revamp the DMP system so that all hunters would be guaranteed a doe permit, and in some areas of the state, thats just not possible. Again, shooting older buck does not get rid of does.

So you're telling me if less bucks are shot and the same amount of does are shot then the buck to doe ratio doesn't become more balanced? It's not to hard to figure out. Do the simple math.

The AR isn't a cureall for everything, but it's a start.

I live in Greene County. Right on the Hudson River. There are way more does then bucks. For example two years ago, opening day, I saw 14 different does and fawns. No buck. Many time you can drive around and see 10-15 does and fawns. No bucks. I don't know where the rest of you live but in my neck of the woods the truth is it's pretty close to 12:1. Believe what you want to.

[Pygmy]

So what is it that is so wrong with having the the urge to shoot something, especially if it is good to eat ?

Many hunters have limited time to hunt.

Also, many of us are not deer hunting fanatics like some of you, and would just as soon spend most of our time doing something other than deer hunting, like shooting waterfowl, fall turkeys, squirrels and rabbits, fall fishing, etc.

We still like the opportunity to hunt deer a few days a year with a reasonable chance to kill a deer or two for the freezer.

We pay our license fees just like the trophy hunting elitists do.

The trophy hunting elitists crap is getting old.

I agree, really old, its the only argument (a false one at that) that they can come up with.  If letting a 1.5 walk is trophy killing thats news to me.  Kind of sad they are opposed to letting the little ones walk.

I don't think any of us are opposed to letting the little ones walk.

It's just that many of us believe that should be the choice of the hunter, rather than something that is arbitrated by law.