Deer Anatomy

[growalot]

Yes...but that shows it to be behind the leg(under as it were)...and the arrow passed in front of the leg( neither leg took a hit)...and it shows intestine...yet none were hit??

Edited November 16, 2011 by growalot

[Doewhacker]

It fans out alot in that area so that would explain the quick kill, missing the gut I would say was due to your shot being so dar back. You must have been in back of every thing and below the intestine's. Bet you didn't loose an inch of meat on that one.

[growalot]

No ..... I didn't and when I saw the nock hanging of the string ..I got out the file and refiled every single arrow nock again!! Didn't much care for the stomach flip I felt when the arrow hit on the opposite end of where I was aiming

[pawle76]

Great thread WNY ! I think it's good to refresh our minds eye of where the vitals are.

Grow, I agree with Doewhacker and WNY femoral artery all the way.

[sidewinder]

now those are some really good referance diagrams and pictures i remember as a young hunter just being told to aim here but not there and when it came time to dress the deer..... omg wish my uncles had this back then.... would have made thing's a bit less complicated

[New2bow]

Wow, that was a great thread! very helpful for a newbie like me

Thanks guys!

[pistolp71]

CCF09262012_0000.pdf

Perfect! So, does anyone want to debate the mystical "no man's land" (DOES NOT EXIST!) ?

Yes, I do. I know you probably know it all, but for anybody else with an open mind. Here you go. Click on Pdf above. From the lastest Bowhunting World.

Edited September 26, 2012 by pistolp71

[Lawdwaz]

CCF09262012_0000.pdf

Yes, I do. I know you probably know it all, but for anybody else with an open mind. Here you go. Click on Pdf above. From the lastest Bowhunting World.

Excellent article. I won't add too much about my experience on these hits but after 35 years of bowhunting lets just say I've seen it happen. I'm a believer in "no man's land".

Edited September 26, 2012 by Lawdwaz

[pistolp71]

Yes, that's why I posted it. Rare but it CAN happen. I know this because I did it about 10 yrs ago. Maybe when it happens to the people that know it all, they will believe it.

[pistolp71]

What, no rebuttal from yosemite Sam??

[SteveB]

A deer can occasionally survive a lung shot.

But there is no "void" in the chest cavity where the arrow can be under the spine and miss the lungs.

Certainly there are places an arrow can go that don't hit vitals and may appear to be a good hit like above the spine.

Case could be made for this being a "no man's land" - but so would a hit in the hoof or knee.

Fact is unless a deer is recovered, there is no way to verify where and what the arrow actually hit or how true it was flying at contact.

[Lawdwaz]

A deer can occasionally survive a lung shot.

But there is no "void" in the chest cavity where the arrow can be under the spine and miss the lungs.

Certainly there are places an arrow can go that don't hit vitals and may appear to be a good hit like above the spine.

Case could be made for this being a "no man's land" - but so would a hit in the hoof or knee.

Fact is unless a deer is recovered, there is no way to verify where and what the arrow actually hit or how true it was flying at contact.

Did you read the article?

[SteveB]

Yes. Absolutely nothing in it that can counter science and show there is a hollow spot an arrow can go threw between the spine and lungs - the area most often referred to as the "void". Doesn't matter if the deer is upside down, sideways, breathing in or out, the lungs are in contact at all times with the walls of the chest unless they or the diaphragm are punctured.

Edited October 6, 2012 by SteveB

[Lawdwaz]

I assume you have never had any experience with a lost deer, shot in that area?

[sampotter]

_{I just read the artcle and it clearly states that Woods has seen deer that had healed broadhead wounds at the top of their lungs. He also said that most supposed "No man's land" shots are actually above the spine. He surmised that maybe an arrow could pass between the lungs and spine, but it would be highly unlikely and had no positive proof that it ever happened. The big thing is that they can survive a "minor" lung wound. I've seen a few cows survive after having a lung rupture. They actually get all kinds of air under the skin of their back. We had a guy that worked for us that had a lung spontaneously rupture when he was in college. He is still alive but could have died because his lung collapsed. The doctors removed the air from his thoracic cavity and it allowed his lung to reinflate. They also roughed up the interior of his ribcage and the surface of his lung so it would heal to the inside of his ribs.This made it physically impossible for his lung to collapse again.}

[SteveB]

I assume you have never had any experience with a lost deer, shot in that area?

I addressed that in my post with 2 points.

1st - possible for a deer to survive a lung hit hit.

2nd - unless a deer is recovered, no one knows for sure where the arrow actually hit.

There is no empty space in the chest area.

[Lawdwaz]

I addressed that in my post with 2 points.

1st - possible for a deer to survive a lung hit hit.

2nd - unless a deer is recovered, no one knows for sure where the arrow actually hit.

There is no empty space in the chest area.

No, you really didn't address my question. Have you ever lost a deer with a hit in that region?

If you found a deer hit like that I'd assume it was a double lunger?

[Guns&ReligionCop]

I know a guy who missed a bucks body entirely and the arrow sliced right thru its pecker. Deer was dead in seconds. It was like something out of a horror movie, blood every where. Piss poor shot and dumb luck but the deer expired quickly

[SteveB]

Never lost one there. Depending on angle, was always at least one lung.

Those where harder tracking except for a 1 lung/liver down in 75 yds.

[pistolp71]

I guess Steve B and Sam just know more that Dr. Woods, one of the nations top deer biologists. Doesn't surprise me. You guys just keep going on thinking you know it all and having those closed minds. I won't waste my time trying to change that.

[SteveB]

Does Dr Woods state there is an empty space is the pleural cavity - the chest cavity behind the diaphragm?

A great explanation from another site:

The diaphragm sits behind the lungs and forms the back of the chest cavity on a deer. The lungs are in direct contact with the diaphragm, the diaphragmatic lobe of each lung rests on the diaphragm. The lungs are also in contact with chest wall on the outside and the mediastinum on the inside. There is no dead space in the pleural cavity, there is in the mediastinum but where the lungs reside. Deer also have a complete mediastinum. This divides the chest into two separate spaces. If you only penetrated one side of the chest then other side will retain negative pressure and not collapse.

The entire chest, or pleural cavity expands and contracts, not just the lungs. So there is never a void created when an animal breathes. When they inhale the diaphragm moves back expanding the volume of the chest cavity and the lungs expand filling the space. They never lose contact with the diaphragm or the chest wall. As they exhale the diaphragm moves forward decreasing the volume of the chest cavity and the lungs decrease in size as the chest area decreases. The tops of the lungs actually sit a little higher than the bottom of the spine as there is dorsal curvature of the lungs. Look in the chest cavity of a deer and you will see what I mean.

[SteveB]

_{I just read the artcle and it clearly states that Woods has seen deer that had healed broadhead wounds at the top of their lungs. He also said that most supposed "No man's land" shots are actually above the spine. He surmised that maybe an arrow could pass between the lungs and spine, but it would be highly unlikely and had no positive proof that it ever happened. The big thing is that they can survive a "minor" lung wound. I've seen a few cows survive after having a lung rupture.}

I just reread Wood's article and it says exactly what Sam states above.

It does not try to claim there is an empty space that contains no vitals under the spine and above the lungs.

So no, neither of us are claiming he is wrong in what he stated - in fact I agree with it.

Need to work on the comprehension there pistol.

[erussell]

I was watching a hunting show last night on pursuit channel. The hunter hit a big buck high and the deer and arrow were never recovered. Fast forward to muzzleloader season and they ended up shooting the buck and killing him. The arrow had broke off inside the deer. Broadhead was stuck under skin on opposite side of entry. Broken off arrow was resting against the backbone. Lungs were never touched.

[SteveB]

Was it in the chest cavity in front of the diaphragm under the spine?

Was the shot from a treestand resulting in a downward angle?

[pistolp71]

How sad, the know it all can't admit he is wrong. My comprehension is fine, it's yours that is lacking.

All in quotes:

The Bottom Line:

But on occasion I know you can drill a deer through no mans land because I have seen it happen. One time I shot a buck on camera for my tv show. We reviewed the footage in slo mo, high just below the spine. We looked for a day little blood no deer. Two days later we filmed the same buck nudging 80 yards away in a field. We filmed both sides of the deer's body for documentation. You can clearly see the arrow's entrance and exit holes through no mans land. And the buck was fine.