Confiscation In America Begins

[ApexerER]

23 minutes ago, virgil said:

For their sake, I hope their lawyers can mount a better defense than you guys.  This is the gate they entered through.  And, trespassing on private property does not necessarily constitute a serious threat to anyone's life.  And, the videos seem to show that the protesters were walking past this house on their way elsewhere when confronted by this couple. 

So with all that is happening in the world today, And I am going to apply this to everyday Americans instead of a rich gated community. If a mob of people opened the gate (whether locked or unlocked, signed with no trespassing or not) to your fenced in back yard, milled around yelling and swearing at you. You wouldn't feel like your life was endangered? That is basically what you are saying....You have called the police and nobody responds? What do you do? Wait for them to enter your home? Maybe set it on fire with you inside? I hope I never have to find out.....especially when someone with your way of thinking might be on the jury....

[virgil]

6 minutes ago, ApexerER said:

So with all that is happening in the world today, And I am going to apply this to everyday Americans instead of a rich gated community. If a mob of people opened the gate (whether locked or unlocked, signed with no trespassing or not) to your fenced in back yard, milled around yelling and swearing at you. You wouldn't feel like your life was endangered? That is basically what you are saying....You have called the police and nobody responds? What do you do? Wait for them to enter your home? Maybe set it on fire with you inside? I hope I never have to find out.....especially when someone with your way of thinking might be on the jury....

No, that's not at all what I'm saying- that's just how you're misinterpreting and misrepresenting what I'm saying.  What I am saying is that the evidence does not match the scenario that you're describing.  And, it does not match the couple's statement in the police report.  The trespassers did not enter the couple's backyard- they were in the street.  And, video evidence suggests that the couple confronted the crowd as they were walking past their house, not encroaching on it. 

[The_Real_TCIII]

Should they have cowered inside and waited to see if that crowd was going to be "peaceful"?? I only take issue with them pointing the gun at people. And their horrid gun handling, they need some training

[virgil]

3 minutes ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

Should they have cowered inside and waited to see if that crowd was going to be "peaceful"?? I only take issue with them pointing the gun at people. And their horrid gun handling, they need some training

Perhaps they should have prepared for the possibility of a conflict by arming themselves, but then wait for the crowd to either just walk by, or present a credible threat.  Would the crowd have even stopped in front of their house if the couple didn't come out yelling and waving guns?  They were supposedly on their way to the mayor's house.  If the crowd makes aggressive moves on them or their house without provocation, then by all means, do what you have to do the protect yourself.  But, just walking down a private street, even if they are trespassing, is not a credible enough threat to a person's life or property to justify pointing guns.

To your question, should someone be allowed to point a gun at a crowd just because they don't want to wait to see if that crowd is going to be peaceful?

[The_Real_TCIII]

6 minutes ago, virgil said:

Perhaps they should have prepared for the possibility of a conflict by arming themselves, but then wait for the crowd to either just walk by, or present a credible threat.  Would the crowd have even stopped in front of their house if the couple didn't come out yelling and waving guns?  They were supposedly on their way to the mayor's house.  If the crowd makes aggressive moves on them or their house without provocation, then by all means, do what you have to do the protect yourself.  But, just walking down a private street, even if they are trespassing, is not a credible enough threat to a person's life or property to justify pointing guns.

To your question, should someone be allowed to point a gun at a crowd just because they don't want to wait to see if that crowd is going to be peaceful?

They absolutely shouldnt have pointed them at anyone (including each other lol). I think just sitting out front, armed, would have sufficed and been well within reason based on the rioting and looting seen all over the country

[Rattler]

Virgil keeps calling them "crowd".  It was a MOB.  

When a mob appears anywhere, standing your ground with a firearm is the way you say, "I feel threatened and I'm warning you not to try anything, or you will regret it." 

Yes people should be able to point a firearm at an unruly mob before it becomes violent.  The potential for deadly harm is there.  There is no legal justification for a threatening mob and the police can shut it down on sight.  The fact they were ordered not to, is a dereliction of duty on behalf of their superiors.

[ApexerER]

1 hour ago, virgil said:

No, that's not at all what I'm saying- that's just how you're misinterpreting and misrepresenting what I'm saying.  What I am saying is that the evidence does not match the scenario that you're describing.  And, it does not match the couple's statement in the police report.  The trespassers did not enter the couple's backyard- they were in the street.  And, video evidence suggests that the couple confronted the crowd as they were walking past their house, not encroaching on it. 

 

 

I don't understand how i am misrepresenting what you are saying. They live in a gated community. It is private, just like your back yard whether they are in the street or on the sidewalk. They are trespassing just like they would be if they were in your front yard. Maybe I just find the McCloskeys more credible than anyone from Black Lives Matter....I don't see anything unjustified in what they did....

"We were threatened with our lives, threatened with a house being burned down, my office building being burned down, even our dog’s life being threatened. It was, it was about as bad as it can get. I mean, those you know, I really thought it was Storming the Bastille that we would be dead and the house would be burned and there was nothing we could do about it. It was a huge and frightening crowd. And they were they broken the gate were coming at us.

Mark McCloskey told KMOV " A crowd of at least 100 smashed through the historic wrought iron gates of Portland Place, destroying them, rushed toward my home where my family and I were eating dinner outside and put us in fear for our lives. This is all private property, there are no public streets or public sidewalks. I was terrified that we would be murdered in seconds. Our house would be burned down, our pets would be killed. We were all alone facing an angry mob"

 

Edited July 22, 2020 by ApexerER

[mowin]

1 hour ago, virgil said:

Oh please.  That's the best you can offer? Yes, you got me- I'm a big advocate of mob rule. 

You must. Your supporting these idiots who clearly broke the law. The home owners were within there rights as outlined by Missouri law.  The governor and the AG agree.  

[ApexerER]

1 hour ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

Should they have cowered inside and waited to see if that crowd was going to be "peaceful"?? I only take issue with them pointing the gun at people. And their horrid gun handling, they need some training

I don't have an issue with that. They aren't police officers or ex military. They were scared and doing the best they could. I give them a lot of credit. Especially the wife, my wife would have been in a heap, crying on the floor....

[virgil]

28 minutes ago, mowin said:

You must. Your supporting these idiots who clearly broke the law. The home owners were within there rights as outlined by Missouri law.  The governor and the AG agree.  

When all the evidence is looked at objectively, it'll be more clear which idiots broke the law.  The mayor, AD, governor, AG, and President are all taking political stances for political purposes.  The evidence will decide.

[virgil]

38 minutes ago, ApexerER said:

 

 

I don't understand how i am misrepresenting what you are saying. They live in a gated community. It is private, just like your back yard whether they are in the street or on the sidewalk. They are trespassing just like they would be if they were in your front yard. Maybe I just find the McCloskeys more credible than anyone from Black Lives Matter....I don't see anything unjustified in what they did....

"We were threatened with our lives, threatened with a house being burned down, my office building being burned down, even our dog’s life being threatened. It was, it was about as bad as it can get. I mean, those you know, I really thought it was Storming the Bastille that we would be dead and the house would be burned and there was nothing we could do about it. It was a huge and frightening crowd. And they were they broken the gate were coming at us.

Mark McCloskey told KMOV " A crowd of at least 100 smashed through the historic wrought iron gates of Portland Place, destroying them, rushed toward my home where my family and I were eating dinner outside and put us in fear for our lives. This is all private property, there are no public streets or public sidewalks. I was terrified that we would be murdered in seconds. Our house would be burned down, our pets would be killed. We were all alone facing an angry mob"

 

You're using the couple's statement as your basis for declaring them innocent.  The video evidence thus far contradicts their story. 

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, virgil said:

When all the evidence is looked at objectively, it'll be more clear which idiots broke the law.  The mayor, AD, governor, AG, and President are all taking political stances for political purposes.  The evidence will decide.

I hate to tell you, but all of this lawlessness and property destruction and threats to innocent people are indeed political activity. It has roots in anarchy and communism and socialism and the destruction of the American system, and you know it. What on earth do you think it is? Further, when  property is confiscated contrary to constitutional protections, there damn well better be some very clear evidence supporting such actions, not some suppositions and fantastic biased interpretations of the law. 

[Doc]

14 minutes ago, virgil said:

You're using the couple's statement as your basis for declaring them innocent.  The video evidence thus far contradicts their story. 

Do you have some secret knowledge that the facts were anything but what the couple stated? Are we to assume that the gate broke itself down? What do you think these people had in mind when they broke down the gate? Were they coming in for coffee?

[mowin]

18 minutes ago, virgil said:

When all the evidence is looked at objectively, it'll be more clear which idiots broke the law.  The mayor, AD, governor, AG, and President are all taking political stances for political purposes.  The evidence will decide.

Who's taking a political stance?  Oh you mean the special prosecutor who wants to defund police, release criminals, and obviously cares more about a mob then law abiding citizens.   Unreal. 

[virgil]

15 minutes ago, Doc said:

I hate to tell you, but all of this lawlessness and property destruction and threats to innocent people are indeed political activity. It has roots in anarchy and communism and socialism and the destruction of the American system, and you know it. What on earth do you think it is? Further, when  property is confiscated contrary to constitutional protections, there damn well better be some very clear evidence supporting such actions, not some suppositions and fantastic biased interpretations of the law. 

agreed.

[virgil]

17 minutes ago, Doc said:

Do you have some secret knowledge that the facts were anything but what the couple stated? Are we to assume that the gate broke itself down? What do you think these people had in mind when they broke down the gate? Were they coming in for coffee?

There are a bunch of video clips online from the incident- everyone films everything these days.  A few were attached to an article I posted on this thread a few hours ago.  Take a look- and read the description of the timeline of events.

Edited July 22, 2020 by virgil

[Doc]

9 minutes ago, virgil said:

There are a bunch of video clips online from the incident- everyone films everything these days.  A few were attached to an article I posted on this thread a few hours ago.  Take a look- and read the description of the timeline of events.

Are you saying that there was no broken down gate? Or are you saying that no one bothered to film that? I mean, I can understand why the socialist media would not bother to publish anything that would indicate forced entry, but it seems that a broken down gate or lack of it would be some immediate evidence of what the intentions were. It certainly would convince me that defensive measures were imminently required.

[virgil]

Read the article and check out the videos.  The first people that pass through the gate just walked through- it was unlocked(not saying that justifies trespassing).  At some point later, it was damaged.  15 seconds after that first person passes through the gate, the couple is shouting and waving guns.

[fasteddie]

17 minutes ago, virgil said:

You're using the couple's statement as your basis for declaring them innocent.  The video evidence thus far contradicts their story. 

You can't judge by the 30 second video that is the only one the media has used . The Protestors broke down the gate to the community and marched through the area . The protesters allegedly threated the couple . The protestors were on their way to the Mayor's home and there was no way to get there by going through this neighborhood . 

[virgil]

And, there are videos online that show the damaged gate.  But, I haven't seen anything that establishes when the damage happened- how long after the group first passes through the unlocked gate.

[fasteddie]

It seems like the Media only ever shows one video . If there are other videos , they don't show them at all .

[Don_C]

I live in a neighborhood that sits behind a golf course, part of the neighborhood is a private condo development which borders a section of the golf club -  It is private, there are no gates, but there are signs. When my kids where small and would ride their bikes through there, they were told to leave. After a few times cutting through to the next road and not listening to the neighbors, a police officer showed up at my door. He told me it was private property and a private road, "the kids are trespassing". They have to stay off that street or there would be charges. I of course made sure they followed the rules.  That being said, f any one of US were to open that gate in the McClosky's neighborhood just to take a meaningless peaceful walk and were told to leave, then didn't,  we would be arrested on the spot. If we threatened them and they pulled a gun, WE would be arrested on the spot.  Period. Those BLM folks did not belong there, they were breaking the law and the only reasons THEY weren't arrested are 100% political. It doesn't matter if they initially smashed down the gate to get in, or if it happened as the crowd grew,  they were trespassing. In today's climate, If I saw that crowd outside my house I would make damn sure I was ready for anything. But...I think we all learned a lesson from this, stay inside, and don't show force until you absolutely need to. Those people may have walked right on by to where ever they were going.

[Don_C]

1 minute ago, fasteddie said:

It seems like the Media only ever shows one video . If there are other videos , they don't show them at all .

The initial videos that were online and TV clearly showed the smashed gate.

 

[ApexerER]

2 minutes ago, virgil said:

And, there are videos online that show the damaged gate.  But, I haven't seen anything that establishes when the damage happened- how long after the group first passes through the unlocked gate.

To me, the whole point you are missing is that a mob of people went through a gate marked with no trespassing signs. Whether the trespass sign was there or not doesn't matter. Whether the gate was broken or not doesn't matter. It is no different than a mob of people getting through a fence and into your back yard. They were not on public property, the Mccluskys have seen what these mobs had done to their city, the cops and too law abiding citizens. I applaud them for not letting it happen to them.....

[virgil]

2 minutes ago, fasteddie said:

It seems like the Media only ever shows one video . If there are other videos , they don't show them at all .

The one that I attached shows the protesters casually walking through an unlocked gate, then immediately (15 seconds later) having guns pointed at them.  Doesn't show anyone on their lawn or approaching their home.