New York Crossbow Hunters..

[JPP]

I'm in for crossbows for anyone who wants to use one during archery season, gun season or late season

[NFA-ADK]

Can't believe im back but I am finished shooting my bow so...

Watch the video (Thanks SplitG2.)

We all know hunters who will or have made bad shots at long ranges even though they are experianced enough to know it is a bad choice. (A guy at my archery club with many years hunting bragged to me about a 65 yard kill with a traditional bow.) Not much we can do to change some people it is just thier way... It's thier nature...

What makes you think someone with NO or very little hunting experiance is not going to do the same thing or worse. Again this is not about experience hunters wanting to use this it is about newcomers to hunting playing around with it...

What I am trying to emphisize is that new hunters with this type of bow seem to be more apt to push the limits. Notice on all or most of the long distance shooting Be it XBow, Compound, Recurve or traditional they are very young that post on the internet... Does not always equate with being recless but as this video shows many yutes like to push the limits as we all do but they are less likely to take precautions...

With experiance gained though practice knowledge and plain old work over years you apreciate your weapon and it's abilities, more over it's effectiveness which garners respect. Once the kid gets tossed around under the wave and held under water for a few minuts he garners much more respect when he sees a large set of riding waves come in... Othwise me telling him to repect the ocean is futile... Knowledge comes through experience...

LOVE that last line SplitG2 and is my main point. "Not the equipement that scares me but the individual using the weapons!"

OK so lets talk about the reason it is NOT considered a bow.

IMO a crossbow is much closer to gun in the fact that,

1) Most have scopes making a level shot as easy as sight alignment (even open sights) and knowlege of bolt trajectory and distance. No scopes on hunting bows and you have to hold the bow in position to line up your X hairs wich requires both hands to get proper alignment while not torquing the bow and having proper form and follow through, not to mention the fact we can't hold it forever and have to eventually"let down"... Even using one hand is achievable with a Xbow. Point is you have to hold the bow perfect for a effective shot and can faulter if not perfect. Not so with a Xbow.

2) The fact that the bolt is LOCKED and ready makes it much closser to a fire arm in the fact that once the trigger is pulled the bolt is released. Any other bow while having a trigger is still not LOCKED. You have to HOLD it when ready to shoot and you have a much smaller window of shooting time. It is only loaded when you pull back the string, Xbow just like a gun is loaded and ready to go just take off safety just like a fire arm...

3) Factor 1 and 2 lead to this fact.

With any bow you have 2 sights or no sights, point is you have to line up for your shot and are not loaded technicaly untile you pull back to full draw. Xbow is at full draw just like a bullet in a chamber and that is why they consider them the same...The fact that you can mess up a shot with any bow is not possible(In the same manner) with a Xbow or gun. This is refrencing tourquing with the hand holding the bow or having the string hit your arm or pulling down on the release, none of which is possible in a gun or cross bow. Both the Xbow and gun are LOADED and are not affected by the hands holding the weapon. IE you can not alter the trajectory from bad form like a bow. PS: This is not a reference to pulling a trigger or squezzing,both are achievable on any triggered weapon... You can not change the trajectory on a Xbow or gun by tourquing the forward handle or trigger mechanism, unless mabe it is really cheaply made and flexible which is not too standard on fire arms, or any good Xbow...

Funny how last post I read was about people not wanting this for there own desires like not wanting some one hunting because they might take MY deer. Which I think is why many think I am opposed. I am concerned about safety despite any other perceptions.

What about the people that just want another tag for thier own use, they could be percieved as just wanting to shoot another deer because they can. Makes me wonder if many just wants another tag for selfish purposes...Tag hogs!?

IF the dec make XBow legal during archery season I bet you will start to see compound bow with string locks coming out soon... And the DEC will have to remove this from thier list of regulations.

"It is illegal to take or hunt wildlife:

• with a bow equipped with any mechanical device which is attached to the bow (other than the bowstring) for drawing, holding or releasing the bowstring, except for a hunter with a disability who is in possession of a Modified Longbow Authorization (compound bows are legal).
  
• http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/28182.html
  
• Thats my story and I'm sticking to it! OK WNYBuck hunter my skin is thicker now with flack jacket ready, need to go get pop corn and soda. PS leave me alone for a few hours to read some other post, LOL...
  
• 
  

[WNYBuckHunter]

If you got this from my post, I did not get the message out the way I wanted. I mean thise against them are now saying they are archery equipment and need ot be taugh tin archery. When the issue started those against them were all calling them xguns so no need to have them in archery.

Nah, I got that from big Tom turkey or whatever his name is.

[WNYBuckHunter]

ok directly from my regional coordinator. Anyone who fills out the certificate now is certified with a cross bow. In the future, and not even yet, it is included in the hunter ed class. when you get your hunter ed certificate after the date is is actually put in place, it will be understood that you are certified in crossbow as it will be mandated to be taught in classes after that date. Our question was, how will you prove it? will a person have to carry their certificate to prove the date they took a class to prove they are certified? It was thrown together in a hurry, and lots of bugs to iron out. That being said, it will be taught in hunter ed the same as ml is and has been since the inception of the special season for them,. There was talk at that time for a special class same as archery. That was when I got into hunter ed, because that was my plan to teach ml only. The bottom line is there were not enough instructors to keep up with the demand when ml started, and there will not be when they start crossbows in special seasons, and I am pretty sure sell another stamp for it and tag. Everyone will want one the same as everyone wanted a muzzleloader. It is what it is and will continue to be so. And BTW some self centered instructor saying they are not willing to do it, will have no effect on state policies. All the instructors I know and work with, are ready to go with it. We were promised they will double our salary for doing so. We have been given a 15 minute dvd to study and talk form the dvd. My plan is to show the dvd

Good info Bubba, thanks for clearing that up.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ok NFA, we get it, you have your opinion, and no matter what the FACTS are, you aren't going to see the truth. Fortunately for the people that do get it (that crossbows are not guns and are in fact bows), the state has also said that crossbows are archery equipment.

[landtracdeerhunter]

I find it interesting that every time crossbows are brought up for archery season, it becomes an informational thread.

Edited February 16, 2012 by landtracdeerhunter

[WNYBuckHunter]

It actually becomes a repeat thread with maybe one or two tidbits of new info in there. Always the same things coming from the anti-side, which are then rebutted with the same facts from the pro-side. Thanks to Bubba for the new factual tidbits this time around.

[BigTomsCalls]

Nah, I got that from big Tom turkey or whatever his name is.

Just the type of imature comment I would expect from you!!

[BigTomsCalls]

it was not taught yet as it has not been set up yet. Please try to be more original and not steal everyone's lines. I have been an instructor for over 25 years. I am sure I am much more informed than you when it comes to this subject and probably most other subjects too. As I stated above if english is comprehensible to you, instructors have been given a dvd which tells what to be instructed. We are not allowed to do so until the state (who is in charge not your buddy) tells us to. See in the real world the state runs the program not some loud mouth instructor who thinks he runs it. I hope this answers your question since this is the third time I explained it. If not time for your meds then.

Oh my another internet hero who throws insults from the safty of his home!! Here's what I comprehend as in your disclaimer. Your an opinunated guy who is a legend in his own mind by thinking he is an excellent instructor. What you are is a (__O__) !!! In 2005 or 2006 at a meating in Albany with the archery instructors and the state the instructors were told that if the xbow is allowed in NYS they would have to teach it in the classes. I that time the majority in attendence said they would drop the certifacate if made to do so. This was not one loud mouth rouge but the majority. Weather this had any bearing on the states decision to have the xbow taught in the hunter ed or not is up for debate. I just fine it subject!! Edited February 16, 2012 by BigTomsCalls

[growalot]

bubba, on 15 February 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

If you got this from my post, I did not get the message out the way I wanted. I mean thise against them are now saying they are archery equipment and need ot be taugh tin archery. When the issue started those against them were all calling them xguns so no need to have them in archery.

I really prefer not addressing any of your post BUT...The problem with the entire issue is they are really neither.... purely by design...They are a combination of both...not speculation fact ...Now I could go down a long history but I don't have the time so I will say from stored knowledge I have the "rifle " design was more than likely taken in part from xbows centuries ago...since If I recall cross bows were known in China around 600BC and blk powder rifles ...I think 17th century..

Now we can all argue where they do or don't belong...seeing their design clearly contains components of both...But the NY DEC should have made a definitive decision in the introduction of the weapon ...which they DID NOT and in not doing so is causing even more strife amongst hunters ...They have BUT should not be able to.... introduce them into a weapon season they had no intention of keeping them in ...then switch them to a different weapons season with out adhering to that seasons mandated requirements

If I read what Mr Bubba said correctly this is exactly what they plan on doing...for them or against them... We should all as NYS hunters be looking at the DEC and asking WTH!!

[wztirem]

We are all missing the point here!

What is most important is the management of the deer herd, the habitat and the recruitment of new hunters and the retention of hunters.

Should the full inclusion of crossbows positively impact the efforts of the NYSDEC at managing the deer herd to include protecting/preserving habitat,recruit and retain more hunters one should support full inclusion.

[NFA-ADK]

It appears I have stiffled you, what no rebutttle, I am shocked WNBuckHunter. DId you get your hands splapped? Saying be a nice boy?

What about the fact that a XBow is like a gun in the repespect that it is always ready to FIRE just take off the safety. No one seems to want to address that issue. Wonder why.

Again I think many here just want another tag and will go with anything that will provide that...

The state says this is a bow fine, then how come it was not used during bow season?

1) A bow requires 2 hands to shoot and can not be locked into position.

2) A bow is never loaded untile pulled back to full draw... Making it a safer weapon IMO...

Fact you can not walk around the woods all day with a loaded bow.

3) Those 2 facts make it much closer to a gun than a bow, I could care less what you think NYS classifies it as, it is not a bow... A bow has NO lock to hold the bolt into position.

Bow - includes long (stick), compound, or recurve bow.

Crossbow - shall consist of a bow, string, and either recurve or compound limbs, having a minimum width of 17 inches (tip of limbs, uncocked), mounted on a stock. The stock shall have a trigger with a working safety that holds the string and limbs under tension until released. It shall have a minimum overall length from the butt of the stock to the front of the limbs of 24 inches and be able to launch a minimum 14 inch arrow/bolt, not including the legal arrowhead. It shall have a draw weight of 100 to 200 pounds.

Again if this is allowed then they will have to allow any bow with a lock on it and a whole new set of compounds will come out...

If you want to address any of my concerns they are all in red, prove me wrong... They are all true and factual. Disprove my comments in red and I am ready to accept Xbow's. Not sure what fact you are refering to but just like the "facts" the dec made up this year about NY being the safest state. You can make statistics into facts and exclude what you do not want to show so facts can be made to show what the state wants to show... Do not believe everything you read. Cause guese what NYS what NOT the safest state last year despite what the DEC wants to report. And yes If I had to I can disprove this fact by including what the dec claims is not hunting releated...

Makes me wonder how many other states exclude certian injuries and fatalities during hunting to make it seem like hunting is safe. Again facts are made by people and can be made to show something if you exclude certian things, like someone getting shot during muzzloader and not counting it as a "hunting accident".

Again disprove my points in red.

Safety factors can be made to match what the state wants, I bet if the state was against hunting(never happen too much money loss) they would have more "facts" proving hunting is unsafe and would include ALL accidents releated to hunting... But if they did it would be one more reason for people to say hunting is DANGEROUS don't do it!!! So they exclude any possible fact that will deter or detract from the "sport"... Go ahead and show what ever facts you want to believe...

[BizCT]

Listen, we all know crossbows will be allowed in archery in NY state. The question is not if they will be allowed. The simple question is when? My sources say 2013 big game season. The only discussion to be had, is everybody guestimating when the xbows will be allowed in archery season and maybe whether or not they will be allowed in archery only areas (like westchester).

[growalot]

maybe whether or not they will be allowed in archery only areas (like westchester).

Now that would be a comforting thought..seeing they are here ...stick them there only

[WNYBuckHunter]

It appears I have stiffled you, what no rebutttle, I am shocked WNBuckHunter. DId you get your hands splapped? Saying be a nice boy?

No, theres just no point in arguing with you. You cant see the facts because you are blinded by your pre-concieved notions. Ive already disproved every single point youve made in other threads, no need to repeat myself.

[BizCT]

wonder why the xbow isn't allowed on small game? It would be perfect for small acreage areas where small game is abundant and you are the required distance away from houses.

[NFA-ADK]

No, theres just no point in arguing with you. You cant see the facts because you are blinded by your pre-concieved notions. Ive already disproved every single point youve made in other threads, no need to repeat myself.

Stiffling complete... Again because you can not disprove my facts you give up the conversation...

Again disprove what is in red, otherwise it is just another gun... pull the trigger is all that is needed...

[NFA-ADK]

http://www.crossbowalternative.com/

New bows will now come with this option. Will have to be made legal if XBows are allowed...

[bubba]

Oh my another internet hero who throws insults from the safty of his home!! Here's what I comprehend as in your disclaimer. Your an opinunated guy who is a legend in his own mind by thinking he is an excellent instructor. What you are is a (__O__) !!! In 2005 or 2006 at a meating in Albany with the archery instructors and the state the instructors were told that if the xbow is allowed in NYS they would have to teach it in the classes. I that time the majority in attendence said they would drop the certifacate if made to do so. This was not one loud mouth rouge but the majority. Weather this had any bearing on the states decision to have the xbow taught in the hunter ed or not is up for debate. I just fine it subject!!

well since I attend those meetings every year, I doubt what you heard was factual, unless you were there yourself. I have not heard anyone state they would drop out of instructing. As far as my disclaimer, it is a joke as much as anything. But if you go back and read bo threads you will see many times when I typed a response I got correct me if I am wrong but aren't you an instructor and you should be thinking this way. And since I had already stated the way it was from personal experience twice and you had not comprehended it, I had to assume you have a hard time with comprehension (this means you did not know what I was saying) I still have to say I am wondering since I have again explained it and you still have find the need to say it is wrong. You are entitled to your opinion even if you look silly expressing it based on what some guy told you. And I throw insults face to face not just from the SAFETY of my home yeah it is spelled safety. and it was a meeting not a meating. Maybe a few will act all bad and drop their certificates but it will never be the majority. Those who do drop their certificates are not dedicated in the first place. But keep pretending you know it all. It suits you well. And I am opinionated show me a human that isn't. try spell check it is amazing (that means it will help you spell the big words) And one more thing I am an excellent instructor. Your turn

Edited February 16, 2012 by bubba

[SteveB]

A bow is never loaded untile pulled back to full draw... Making it a safer weapon IMO...

Again -back it up with stat's from the places where legal.

If true, it should be easy for you.

Saying or thinking it does not make it true.

[growalot]

Quote...

"got correct me if I am wrong but aren't you an instructor and you should be thinking this way"

Hahaha Bubba ....I see your STILL wearing the wedgie on that one...ya know...If you just reach around and pull...it wouldn't chafe you so much

Edited February 16, 2012 by growalot

[bubba]

it was not just you it has happened a few times.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Stiffling complete... Again because you can not disprove my facts you give up the conversation...

Again disprove what is in red, otherwise it is just another gun... pull the trigger is all that is needed...

Wrong. Go do a search for older crossbow threads. Everything you have posted has been disproven before.

[WNYBuckHunter]

http://www.crossbowalternative.com/

New bows will now come with this option. Will have to be made legal if XBows are allowed...

It already is, if you get the proper permit. If you knew the FACTS, you would have known this.

Oh and new bows don't come with that, it actually voids the warranty on your bow if you use one. Again, learn the facts before you run your mouth. Skippy.

[WNYBuckHunter]

wonder why the xbow isn't allowed on small game? It would be perfect for small acreage areas where small game is abundant and you are the required distance away from houses.

Hopefully it will be down the road.