To any proponents of QDM and AR

[Caveman]

I don't know how many of you read Outdoor Life but this month there was an article that I think was right up this forum's alley.  It was entitled "The Trophy Trap" and talked about how the quest for monster bucks may be hurting the sport of hunting overall. 

The article was way too long to post here so I recommend everyone who's interested head to a newsstand and read it.  It covered the concept of QDM from several points of view.  The first was that of a Missouri native hunter who no longer has any place to hunt with his son because all the farmland he used to hunt as a kid is now leased out to ultra-exclusive outfitters.

Then it goes to a hunt club down south that started out as the epitome of what hunt clubs should be, until AR's were imposed that is.  Their self-imposed AR policy took all the fun out of the hunting experience and eventually the entire camp fell apart.

Lastly it goes to the story of another hunt club in what I think is New York who got some advice from a QDM biologist to kill all the does they could because it worked down south.  Next thing you know they have an extremely harsh winter and almost completely destroy their herd.

I didn;t so it justice with this quick synopsis but in my opinion it's an interesting article for anyone who got involved in that other 19 page discussion on AR's and QDM.  Did anyone else read it yet and if so what do you think?

[solon]

I read it - very good article with a good point of view

I think humans think too much....we've screwed up the environment over the past 200 years and ideas like QDM make me laugh, becuase we "think" we can contol the balance of nature. Wolves weren't selective about what they killed, and either is mother nature when a hardh winter blows through.

I also agree that it is pushing out the average hunter -  i would love to go on a western Elk hunt or an illinois deer hunt - but how many of us can afford those prices and as the article suggests the prices go up in pursuit of those big racks.

[Doewhacker]

I read it too, it was good to see a different point of veiw.

[Doc]

I read it - very good article with a good point of view

I think humans think too much....we've screwed up the environment over the past 200 years and ideas like QDM make me laugh, becuase we "think" we can contol the balance of nature. Wolves weren't selective about what they killed, and either is mother nature when a hardh winter blows through.

I also agree that it is pushing out the average hunter -  i would love to go on a western Elk hunt or an illinois deer hunt - but how many of us can afford those prices and as the article suggests the prices go up in pursuit of those big racks.

I guess I never thought of it that way .... lol. Nature, supposedly the time perfected and evolved form of game management functions exactly opposite of QDM. Interesting observation. 

Doc

[Larry]

I’ve read it. Here’s what I think of Mother Nature she is a cruel bitch that doesn’t care whether you live or die we are all recyclable.

[Larry]

:-X  This is a copy of a letter i sent out that's why it's in the form its in.

Could QDM be a prime factor in the lower number of deer sightings?

We all heard it at the end of deer season on wed sites or in publications from other hunters; I hunted all season and only saw 6 deer all season. Then we start looking for someone or something to blame. We blame the DEC because we think the herd size estimates are wrong, we blame coyotes, to many nuisance permits being given out and even cars. All these are factors and there are more one of the biggest factors is hardly mentioned and that’s “US” myself included.

  When we all first started to hear about QDM and its management style; we were told if we wanted to see bigger bucks we needed to let small bucks walk, manage does (kill more does) this is not the same as antlerless. We were told the buck to doe ratio was way off and needed to be 1 to 1 this ratio is not correct.

  The harvesting of doe’s makes scents; to control a population you need to add or subtract females. We were also told that if we killed Does we would see more bucks. I do not think that is necessarily true and I can prove it. When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns.

  If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more buck sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year. Another example is in Allegany County a farmer started a QDM program on his 1700 acres. He went out at night spot lighting to see what kind of deer he had and he saw lots of antlerless deer. For 3 years they took over 40 doe’s a year using DMP’s and DMAP’s. He would let you hunt there but you had to kill doe’s no bucks. They would kill a few big bucks. Then in years 4-6 they started to kill fewer and fewer doe’s by year 6 they killed less than 10 doe’s and no bucks, saw plenty of bucks before the season but killed none. Funny thing started to happen, his neighbors started to kill big bucks. They were not killing off their doe’s so the bucks were moving to where the does are.

  What I believe he did was not only destroy his doe population he also destroyed the age structure of his doe herd. This is what I believe we are doing under the miss guided concept of killing doe’s gives you more bucks and the myth of the 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s I am not advocating not shooting doe’s; what I am advocating is be careful on how many and where in the age structure you harvest the doe’s from.

[Caveman]

I just think it's laughable that humans are so arrogant they think they can manage wildlife.  Sure, to a certain extent we can alter the environment and the ecosystem but mother nature (what a bitch she is) has had a monopoly on the deer management concept for millions of years.  We're not experts marching around managing herds and sustaining the resource.  In the big scheme of things we're more like little kids with a chemistry set tinkering in our rooms hoping we don't burn the house down.  Unfortunately if we **** around with nature too much that 's eventually what will happen. 

[steve863]

QDM was developed by biologists who were paid by trophy hunters to come up with a theory that would hopefully grow them bigger bucks.  That is pretty much it in a nutshell.  I am sure the QDM proponents will come up with all sort of mumbo jumbo that it's not, but I for one don't buy it for a second and neither do many other reasonable thinking hunters out there.  I have been hunting LONG enough to know that big antlers and the greed for them drive some to do some crazy and irrational things.  QDM is just one example.  In the scheme of deer in nature, it does absolutely NOTHING for them.  Any possible benefits from it is for the hunter only.

[Bballhunter11]

Here is the link to the article that u are talking about. I think this is a great article and really defines a problem that is starting to have an effect on our sport.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2010/08/trophy-trap

[Caveman]

Thank you I was trying to find it on the website but couldn't. 

[SteveMcD]

I believe hunting was better when "Doe Permit" allocations were very  conservative and any antlered buck was fair game. 

I do see some merit in AR, but I also see and hear complaints from other hunters, in other states that have been locked out of previously accessible land, because of QDM and AR. Properties getting locked up in big money leases, etc.

[wztirem]

QDM was developed by biologists who were paid by trophy hunters to come up with a theory that would hopefully grow them bigger bucks.  That is pretty much it in a nutshell.  I am sure the QDM proponents will come up with all sort of mumbo jumbo that it's not, but I for one don't buy it for a second and neither do many other reasonable thinking hunters out there.  I have been hunting LONG enough to know that big antlers and the greed for them drive some to do some crazy and irrational things.  QDM is just one example.  In the scheme of deer in nature, it does absolutely NOTHING for them.  Any possible benefits from it is for the hunter only.

I find it reprehensible and outrageous that certain individuals and organizations can promote/practices such programs (for profit) upon game animals and in turn sell it to the hunting community as both necessary and beneficial for the overall health of the species. We cant be so ignorant as to not realize that what they are promoting/practicing is animal husbandry for wildlife!

I guess its the American way, all about the Benjamin's!