Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[burmjohn]

The point is to allow then the chance to survive, ideally beyond the 2.5 mark.  Deers mature, become smarter, more aware of their surroundings, scent, etc.  A 1.5 has less of a chance surviving a harsh winter, especially after a elongated rut, due to the lack of bucks, then then an area where more bucks and more mature bucks exist.

[Buckstopshere]

Here is the second one:

The third:

The fourth:

The fifth:

The sixth :

[burmjohn]

Video overload!  Is there a summary somewhere ?

[Buckstopshere]

The seventh:

And the final...The eighth:

[Buckstopshere]

Sit back and enjoy. This is Pa. Game management history from a the guy that was there...and it is all the science and facts anyone would want.

AR proponents say they want science and facts...well here it is...just sit back and watch.

[burmjohn]

What exactly does this have to do with AR's?

They wanted to reduce the herd because they thought the forests and land were being destroyed by the over population of deer, consuming more then the land could produce.  The videos clearly show that this is not the case, the commission was hired to do the study listed a lot of fallacies regarding how the deer herd was destroying the forest because of business interests.  They went on to say how the birds and the mammals that live in the PA lands were under some sort of pressure that did not exist.  I watched all of the video's, I do not think once that the study mentioned AR. It was completely about managing the herd.  Having property on the PA boarder in Cochecton, less then 1 mile from the Delaware river, I have had the opportunity to interact with a lot of PA folks and exchange hunting stories.  Not once was the mention that their herd is decimated because of the over issuance of antlerless permits, however there were plenty of occasions where they talked abut the harvesting of mature bucks.

[wztirem]

I will readily admit that the NYSDEC has failed in its effort to implement their mandate. Not because of incompetence, but because of the lack of funds.Clearly, the money does not exist to implement any kind of progressive deer management as is practiced in other states; be it successful or not.

What we die hard NY hunters argue about is important; but the reality is that the status quo as it pertains to deer management will remain in place, with some changes which we as a group will pay for in the end. The easiest deer management strategy for the DEC is to kill as many deer as possible and that may never change. Its very easy for some to propose and espouse a better mouse trap and never if ever consider the overall cost and how it benefits the majority of hunters, or the deer herd and the habitat.

NY hunters as a whole are representative of a paper tiger, we have no political clout and perhaps we never will. As a group we certainly have dropped the ball!

[burmjohn]

What exactly are you referring to? What are these changes that we as a group will pay for in the end?  What is this mouse trap that we are proposing?

I agree as a group, we do need to come together.  There needs to be a hunters party, group, whatever that represents the interests of hunters in general.  I also agree that the DEC has partially failed due to the lack of funds (along many other things).  The problem is where are are the funds from licensing going if not to fund the DEC? Where are my taxes going? Ok thats a whole other issue in itself.

[Fairgame]

Sit back and enjoy. This is Pa. Game management history from a the guy that was there...and it is all the science and facts anyone would want.

AR proponents say they want science and facts...well here it is...just sit back and watch.

I need to ask a stupid question.  How in your mind do you think that ARs are the reason for the drop in the deer population in PA? 

What are you trying to show everyone how corrupt they are?  How they lied to sportsman on their FACTUAL SCIENCE to get what they wanted and not the sportsman. 

I believe that he was a great speaker and biologist and told the truth on how you cant believe what they tell you is fact and science.  The fact and science is the hunter himself that is afield and knows what is happening.  In all eight segments it proves who is on the agenda.

If you were trying to prove that ARs are a bad thing, sorry to tell you you wasted your time and also mine and probably everyone elses.  It only proves the corruptness of the ones you want to believe that have the fact and science you are all waiting for. 

The TRUE fact and science are the ones that are out there knowing what is actually happening.  The HUNTERS!

Keep waiting on the DEC to bring you fact and science.

[Buckstopshere]

Gosh, I'm sorry if I wasted your time! I thought it was one of the most compelling stories on deer management I have seen since the Mississippi State U. studies on MAR! (I like to call them MAR for Mandatory AR.) Because if you want to pass on small bucks, knock yourself out.

I believe he mentions MAR in his introduction. Secondly, Gary Alt was the leading proponent of MAR for those of you who did not follow the entire political dog and pony show in Pa. MAR was used as the primary vehicle to reduce the herd, promising deer hunters bigger bucks in a few years. Many of us took on the stance, of "Well, they are the experts...let's wait and see. We can always go back, etc."

Now we see that the theory of MAR's was used as a tool by...at the least crooked politicians and environmental groups positioned to destroy deer hunting.

I think another story must be how did our legislators and DEC resist these same pressures? They sure have gone up a couple notches in my estimation. Thank God!

We, here in NY could be dealing with the disaster that is occurring now in Pa. I would guess...totally unscientific, that the lands I hunt on in North Central Pa. have seen an 85% drop in the whitetail population. (I spend a lot of time down there, throughout the year.) Pretty obvious by the tracks in the snow. And I am up one hill and down another.

MAR's has been the carrot, the great promise, almost a Trojan Horse if you will...that has led to the current state of deer hunting in Pa. And Gary Alt was the Pied Piper. And I am sure there are areas in Pa. that have not suffered like the heavily-forested North Central region. has.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Culver,

You are fortunate to see deer like that where you hunt, and I could guarantee most of the state doesnt describe their hunting experience in NY like you just did.  If most people would be able to see deer like that it wouldnt even be an issue to discuss.  You are probably a small percentage of hunters that sees what you see.  Hunting where I hunt I have never seen 6 150 inch deer in my entire time hunting.  I would love to see one in a year.

I have been in multiple areas of WMU 5, 6r,6s,7r,7s,8c,8h,8m,8n. I have seen bucks in all those areas that are 130 or better. I believe they are out there. all over the state. Will every piece of property hold them. no. But I think that is part of the magic of seeing one you do not trip over one every trip out....lol. I am glad it seems to be working down there for you guys...I really am. The guys I hunt with right around my house...8H. don't let bucks pass. even with all the trail cam pics they see so they know they are there. That is their choice though. I don't gun hunt there...(I spend that season with my Dad in a much less productive area). Last year was the first time one of them scored a nice buck. one I had been watching and chasing all Bow season. Lucky for my buddy(sitting in my stand I told him to use...lol) it was the first Buck that came through. Not a slob but very respectable...I love the high racks.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

NY...you are so full of it....If you guys like it...great....working for you ....great...My biggest point is it is not NEEDED where others are..and you keep saying you only speak for your area...but then out the other side of your mouth start spewing about a statewide AR...as do others. I see easily over a half dozed deer a year that would break 150 class and very mature. Not to mention a pile between 100-140...get them ...a few...but they are where I hunt. I dont see the problems everyone is screaming about. I guess from my point of view...as I have said before---I hate to see new reg's imposed on others and if it isn't broken here...don't fix it....Seems like every time the regulatory groups get their fingers into something they frigg it up

HAHAHA... I'm full of it? I'll say it again, I speak for my area. It works, period.  You are telling me I'm full of crap because I speak from first hand experience, are you insane or just an ignorant? 

Great for you with the 150 class, thats not the norm.  Clearly you don't need AR's in your area. If your seeing all these great mature deer why the hell in gods name would you give a rats ass if there were AR's in your area.  You have all these monsters walking around, then a measly 3 point AR on one side is not going to make ONE BIT OF FREAKING DIFFERENCE FOR YOU OR ANYONE THAT HUNTS IN YOUR AREA!  So stop whining about how AR's are so horrible and go get your 150 class deer that we have yet to see you post.

I have been very consistent in my posts....I do practice it. I hunt with and know a lot of guys who don't and others that do. The problem I have is not with the implimentation  of any plan...my problem is putting a plan in that has questionable motives, suspect findings, and imposing it on hunters that do not want it. That is my issue...always has been. I know you guys say that in your area, all the guys you know want this and love it. I am not questioning what you say. I believe you because you are basing it on what you know. I take a burn when someone uses a poll based on a very small percentage of hunters and passes that as a justification of the regulation. the type of hunting we have her in Ny is a tradition....not cast in permanent stone, but in my view, if we are to chage tradition they had better be overwhelming support.....based on a much larger percentage than was done.

If you try to change a lot of folks traditions...you might stand a better chance messing around with their wife of kicking their dog. Folks as a general rule are set in their ways and resist change. It would have no effect on my hunting style but other would probably need to see that support in hard numbers. I don't understand why , if the support is there, that the supports in the large numbers do not push DEC for a voting on  a program. The computerized license system I would think would make this sooooo easy...2011 license year....when you buy one you must select support or no support....to be implemented in 2012. seems very simple to me.

But supporting what I guess is the bigger question. and again I question a report put forth with things like the health of the herd....decreased car accidents....less over browsing damage...genteler rut for the bucks. I outlined why I thought those were incorrect conclusions but havent seen any response to them from the supporters on here other than I am wrong. I really don't think I am and I have to call into question the rest of the study and the conclusions. If you look at the study from a purely scientific analysis....if the original questions, methods of collection data or the conclusions are in any way in error the experiemnt is invalid.

[SteveB]

Great post Culver!! Pretty much nailed all I have tried to say.

The questions you ask and points you have made should be easy to answer IF facts

truly support a sound reason for a single statewide change. The study from Mississippi casts serious questions on a points based AR system as to not only not leading to improved health, but actually hurting the herd. Something like this cannot be taken lightly and should not be done because a change is sought for the sake of change.

[steve863]

Yup, Culver is a man WITH hunting experience and who knows what he's talking about.  His opinions are not based on what some Texas biologists say, but what he has witnessed himself.  What he says is reality, unlike the fantasy of some of the others.

[burmjohn]

Mine are based on facts and first hand experience.  I think most of the guys posting are speaking from first hand experience, not some fantasy.

[Fairgame]

Buckstopshere

The reason PAs herd is down is because of all those doe permits they gave out to balance the herd, not cause of ARs.

ARs was probably the carrot, I don't know.  Never in one of those videos was ARs even mentioned for being the downfall to their deer numbers. 

In my area where we have ARs I have seen more deer and more bucks in the last few years.  They are barely giving any doe permits.  I dont see it going the same direction as PA.

I dont believe that ARs are the answer to all but it works, the part that makes it mandatory is the reason why its working.  It has been the best hunting I have had in the entire time I have hunted there.

[steve863]

I would like to know why deer numbers have decreased in a few of these AR units where they have barely given out doe permits in the last few years?? Exactly what happened?  I have a friend who used to have NO problem getting a doe permit in one of these areas.  If there were as many "care for the health of the herd" AR proponents as you guys claim in these areas, you would think they would have been more conscious of what was happening to their herd, don't you?  And since you guys claim that 70% + of the hunters are in favor of AR's in these units, don't go blaming the "brown and it's down" guys for shooting off all the does either.  Something is not making a whole lot of sense here.  If everyone was so into this "care for the health of the herd" mentality down there they would not have let the herd get to where it is today. 

[Fairgame]

Deer numbers were down throughout the entire state, dont just look at the AR zones.  I have no problems seeing deer, and if you look at burmjohn's photos you can tell there is no shortage.  His place is right down the street from me and have had the pleasure to meet him and his family during the hunting season to discuss deer hunting and from the amount of does and bucks he saw there is no shortage of deer.  If you dont hunt it you dont know.  I didnt get a dmp and still see no problem filling tags if I choose.  I'm not going home with a pocket full of tags and I have proven that to you 2 years in a row so far. 

[steve863]

There surely isn't such a shortage in other areas to a point where they hardly give out any doe permits.  Yes, there are a few other places that aren't giving them out, but it's just funny that a couple of AR units would be included while some bordering non-AR units DO have a good supply of doe permits available.  As I said, something doesn't seem to add up here with the droves of "care for the health of the herd" hunters you claim to have in these units.

[Fairgame]

Every area is different and that is why its divided.  That is why we have WMUs.  The fact that only 900 DMPs were given out in my area doesnt affect me, and I dont care how many the neighboring WMU is giving out has nothing to do with my unit. Their area can possibly hold more deer and more permits are given out.  The DEC are the ones that know why.(More homes?) 

[steve863]

OK, so since the DEC thinks only 900 permits should be given out and since you got a deer already this year, I am hoping that you will do your what's "best for the health of the herd" duty and NOT take another deer this year in this unit.  Remember, YOU guys are the "stewards" all the rest of us should look up to, after all!

[Fairgame]

This is another thing you are not understanding.  That the DEC also gives you other tags to fill.  I will be doing nothing wrong taking another deer.  I could of shot a doe 6 times already but didnt want to tag out so early in the season cause I enjoy being out there.  Next week If I have a good opportunity on a doe I will take it if not muzzle loader.  Rifle season I normally never shoot. Not because I dont see bucks But I have normally let them go cause they have been yearlings or smaller than the buck I have shot during bow.  I am doing nothing illegal if I shoot 2 more deer, but I normally dont cause there is no need for it.  I'm not there for the meat, I'm there for the excitement.

[steve863]

My suggestion would be that you fellas just give it up.  You boys talk the talk, but obviously DON'T walk the walk.  I don't care how many more tags came with your license, if you are these great "stewards" you guys claim to be you wouldn't be shooting any more deer, most especially if you aren't in it for the meat.  Why not allow for a smaller deer take this year, so hopefully the DEC might issue more doe permits to those who really want them next year??  Just too much to ask from you guys I guess..  And then WE are the ones being called the "brown and it's down guys"!  LOL 

[Fairgame]

You are Brown its Down.  No questioning that.  So I should let them go for you.  Tell me what is wrong with shooting a doe with the bow or muzzleloader and another buck with the rifle.  The DEC (Your God) says its ok.  The ones with all the proof  and all the scientific data right?  Let some of the little ones walk steve and one day you would be able to harvest something without spots!  Even though I'm not in it for the meat, I still eat what I have and never have any left over by the beginning of next season

[skyzmine]

You are Brown its Down.  No questioning that.

lables from the labler

i say kill what ever you want as long as you eat it.

maybe you should tell the poor guy that his family should'nt eat because the deer was to young.

dam tree hugger  hay look a lable