Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Pat Rockets]

Yes..it is a bit deeper than you read into it..i use these forums to get better aquainted with the real hunters of ny...not the puppets who feel they know whats best..sorry bout yer friend..not cause of the head injury..but because he has a friend that looks down his nose at him because hes different. I said about 30 pgs back i was for ar...but i want more out of it if im gonna be restricted..sorry you cant stick your head outta the box and try to see things from all angles.

[Geno C]

I have posted it several times on a couple threads... I'm getting tired of repeating it... lets just say.. it isn't about trophy buck hunting

As for passing on small bucks.. I don't caare if you or your naighbor shoot the buck I pass on... I pass on them because I choose to pass on them... if I pass on a young buck that leaves a chance that he may survive... If I kill him ... I am 100% sure that he will never grow to fill in another age class in the buck population... it's that simple.

You're right, me passing on a buck is not going to have much impact on any overall management improvement... personally I don't pass on bucks thinking its going to change anything. I do it because I personally think its the right thing to do.. and frankly, young bucks are so easy to find and kill that I don't find it a challange.

What others do has no influence on my choice of hunting.. I do it to satisfy me... Like you.. a statewide AR will not impact my hunting experience what so ever... as I have stated many times before.. in my opinion I still think AR's are a good idea along with any solid management plan, but thats my position on the subject if asked... I am not lobbying for any program or really care one way or the other if it ever happens in NY.

But, I am very well versed on the subject and have done numerous seminars on the subject as well... long before most guys on this forum ever heard of it. I am only interested on passing on correct info... to help combat the BS that most of the guys spout...

Other than that.. I just think its an interesting topic

i get that... i have been practicing passing on smaller deer for over 5 years now, maybe not near as long as you but its what personally believe, AR aside. Also, maybe my "smaller deer" maybe a different caliber of smaller deer then you. As for passing on smaller bucks, what one calls small another may shoot so its hard to differenciate that. I was really asking because in the 100 pages we got already i lost sight of what you are trying to say and where you are coming from only because so much was said from YOU that i even wonder what it is you are trying to convey... i just see here you stated a few times that some dont get and never will, so i wanted to know exactly what its means by your definition, nothing more...

[nyantler]

The notion of AR's came directly from deer management concepts devised in Texas in the 1950's as a means to balance buck to doe ratios and buck age structure that was in terrible disarray .. when the idea of QDM made its way to NY in the 1990's some genius figured out that a better age structure would mean more and bigger bucks.. then some other genius came up with the idea that bigger bucks would be a great way to promote QDM... then another genius decided planting huge food plots would satisfy the part of QDM that was designed to help deer by naturally maintaining good browse for deer during the winter months.

Lastly, some genius realized that one could make a ton of money off of all of this... and a new QDM was created which promoted huge bucks and massive food plots to keep those huge bucks on your property. That is not the QDM concept that was used in Texas in the 50's and originally promoted here in NY. It is also not the kind of deer management I am talking about when I speak of QDM. But, to be fair.. I understand that this is the one that you all seem to be most familiar with.. but it is not the original plan... many of the current QDMA leaders in NY... didn't even know what it was 17 years ago when I first started talkiing about it here in NY...

Even Dr. Grant Woods who originally brought the concept to NY and first tried it at Weller Mountain has moved away from the original concept of maintaining a natural healthy herd based on the given habitat.. and moved to bigger bucks and larger food plots... The QDM that you see today on TV in south Texas is not the same as the original concept.. and my opinion is that QDM has become more like an invasive deer farming than a natural deer management.

So when I say that I am for AR it has nothing to do with trophy hunting and everything to do with having a more balanced buck:doe ratio with better age representation in all the age classes of bucks... period

I don't need AR to kill big bucks...

[nyantler]

As an aside... food plots were used in the original QDM concept... but they were treated as a safe zone and were never hunted over... they were usually close to the lodge or hunting camp and were completely off limits to hunting... keeping them close to the lodge or camp allowed the area to be watched better against guys cheating and hunting near it as well as a means to record deer numbers and identify certain bucks.

[SplitG2]

Joe, QDM in Texas in the 50's?  I thought it was TDM and Joe Hamilton was brought in to help? It wasn;t later that Joe swayed towards QDM.  Grant Woods does alot more than put stock into bigger food plots, just look at how small his plots are on Growing Deer TV.  You are right about QDM has taken a turn towards big bucks and plots but true QDM guys still see the big picture.

[nyantler]

Joe Hamilton was founded the QDMA in 1988 ... he actually took the concept of TDM - Trophy Deer Management (which he once said would never catch on in the US) and developed the concept of QDM which was geared less towards creating trophy bucks and more towards balancing out of whack deer ratios along with bettering deer herds in limited habitats. But, Texas developed the first deeer management plan way back in the 1950's

[nyantler]

I checked some of my old notes and I was mistaken QDM started in the 1960's in Texas.... biologists Al Brothers and Murphy Ray JR were the the guys that came up with the original idea

[SplitG2]

you are correct, it wasn't until 82 when Joe invited Al to be a keynote speaker in his south corilina branch which we all know now to be QDMA.

[Geno C]

interesting read, thanks joe.

one more question, how would AR create a more balanced buck / doe ratio? i wont say what im thinking i just want to see if its close to you are thinking.

thanks

[Pat Rockets]

The hope is that people will take more does and in theory the bucks presence will seem greater

[Geno C]

i was leaning to the taking of more does theroy, ok...

[nyantler]

AR alone without a thought out doe harvest probably won't do much for buck to doe ratio  ... in the first couple years of a management program AR there will be less bucks taken (because of the lack of legal bucks/ per # of hunters) ... and the hold over of yearling bucks will be greater... that along with a good doe harvest will start to bring the buck count up and the doe count down towards one another.. and so on for a few years as the ratio stablizes.. then the doe harvest will need to be adjusted to match buck kill to maintain a close ratio as more legal bucks have become available for harvest, thus increasing the buck harvest.

The key is having the patience during the first couple of years... when the populations of bucks and doe are stablizing realizing that it will take a few years to fill in buck age groups that have diminished over the years. Eventually kill numbers will get back to normal... usually within 4-5 years.. but usually you start seeing the benefit to the buck herd after 3 years.

The other key is the right AR... 3 on a side is not a good restriction for protecting yearling bucks.. spread is better in the field. What really needs to happen is... hunters can't be focusing at how they can hunt close to the antler limit, but rather trying to make sure they are not taking yearlings... we all know what a big buck looks like, so thats what we are trying to harvest.

For example.. if the legal spread limit was 14".. we shouldn't be hunting 14 " bucks, but rather bucks that have the kind of head gear that a bigger more mature buck would have. The 14" limit would just be a measurement used for those guys that want to attempt a guess at a buck close to the limit.. if you want to hunt close to the limit instead of hunting bigger bucks you might get yourself a fine.. 14" is just a legal benchmark to protect young bucks...without the benchmark guys would be shooting small bucks claiming they thought they were bigger with no penalty for having done so.

[wztirem]

When it comes to shooting does one should not kill doe fawns!

[wztirem]

When it comes to shooting does one should not kill doe fawns!

On second thought, perhaps we should!

In any event, for every 1.5 buck that walks, you better kill a doe.

[Pat Rockets]

If more doe are expected to be taken..i see more buttons accidently taken..in turn shooting the foot

[nyantler]

the idea is to try and take the bigger does ... it is recommended to have at least 2 does present to use as a size gauge.. more is better... shooting the bigger deer also helps keep the button buck kill to a minimum as well

[nyantler]

Rocket I have used this doe concept for about 20 years now.. and after about 30 does or so since then... have never killed a button buck

[wztirem]

the idea is to try and take the bigger does ... it is recommended to have at least 2 does present to use as a size gauge.. more is better... shooting the bigger deer also helps keep the button buck kill to a minimum as well

Here lies the problem, fawn mortality increases. Removing hierarchical does compounds that problem. Doe fawns and 1.5 does are not good breeding stock. If we have Ar do we doe/R?

[Geno C]

Rocket I have used this doe concept for about 20 years now.. and after about 30 does or so since then... have never killed a button buck

it would be nice but you can not expect everyother hunter to be able to tell the difference from a nice doe and a button buck. mistaking a button for a doe happens all tomuch and i can see that being an issue and also a sort of contridiction to the system if AR was the way.

[Pat Rockets]

Having feeders might help in size gauging...for those of us willing to admit a mistake or 2

[Geno C]

i have heard NOW NO FLAMING HERE, quite a few claims in feeders being able to give a hunter an edge and aid in bringing deer in to size a deer up for doe management and reduce the mistake of shooting a button buck by mistake. Ive heard this on a few hunting shows where it is legal and the claims were said to reduce the number of buttons shot and supposably they claimed it works. Again, just what ive seen on TV.

[MountainHunter]

The best part about this entire thread is that AR's are favored by more than 2 to 1. Yet Patti will ignore the request of the majority of us sportsman and cave to the inept Conservation Council and the aggressive but ill informed group from Western NY,the same region that has the best big buck hunting in the state.

The simple and fair solution would be to allow Home rule,county by county but that seemingly was shot down. Management by emotion not biology continues in NYS.

In the absence of hunters what would the buck age structure in a herd look like? Would 75% plus be 1 1/2 year old bucks?

[Pat Rockets]

[[[[[[[[[[[2to1 is  still only 66.66- barely a passing grade...i would be ok with ar..but id also be ok with a feeder if it were legal...your wanting the hunter to stop and judge deer before "harvesting"...feeders can help that...id just like to see more benifit from what comes of new changes..i dont need a feeder but i would like to see more.people benifit.. regardless of locale

[SteveB]

Yeh - lets take a little over 200 replies (out of 200,000 potential) on a poll as unscientific as it gets and base a management program on it. That's as emotional a management scheme as it gets - especially when the DEC biologists have repeatedly stated there is no biological need.

AR supporters love to claim that they have 2/3 support for AR in NY.

I'll ask again: if that is the case, who is shooting the claimed 75% of 1 1/2 bucks every year?

Many of the 1/3 who are are against mandatory AR practice it and choose to take older bucks.

If the alleged 2/3 of supporters actually had the belief in it and followed it already, and you combine them with those who practice it from the 1/3, that doesn't leave a lot of hunters willing to shoot 1 1/2 bucks.

Only 2 possibilities then:

1. That a small % of hunters are able to consistanly account for the majority of the buck kill.

                                                OR

2. A pretty high number of those claiming to support AR do not feel strongly enough about it to practice it.

[arrowflinger]

Yeh - lets take a little over 200 replies (out of 200,000 potential) on a poll as unscientific as it gets and base a management program on it. That's as emotional a management scheme as it gets - especially when the DEC biologists have repeatedly stated there is no biological need.

Yea...statewide it is pretty evenly split.

Again.....I bet the vast majority of AR supporters have a box full of sawed off spikes and forkhorns in their garage.

They had no problem shooting dink bucks back in the day, but now feel they need AR to have a better chance at a big buck.

At the expense of those hunters who would still be happy to be sawing off spikes and forkhorns for a box in their garage.