Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[nyantler]

How did we get from AR to peanuts???

[BornToHunt]

My thoughts exactly

[Dinsdale]

People with peanut allergies also were made to believe staying away from peanuts was the way to go..now docters are feeding these people small amounts of peanuts to help control reactions...that is a more recent hypothisis gone wrong...

Often "theories" can get more sophisticated and be expanded or eventually proven wrong. The concept that some folks are allergic to peanuts is a good theory. Feed them peanuts= get sick.It's repeatable and can be reproduced independent of other causes of the reaction. The concept of treatment however has changed. The theory is good, but needs to be expanded to include further explanation.

Einstein had a static universe theory, had all kinds of equations to back it up and his famous relativity theory helped with the cause. He was dead wrong as Hubble (the guy they named the telescope for) generated different observations, providing proof for Einsteins blunder and he conceded his gaff. Although there are still those who use his model.......

Ah, where will AR's fit in.....hypothesis gone awry, or theory borne out in tangible results?

[nyantler]

I'm going with theory borne...

[bubba]

Pat Rockets Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest will take over, I think all those inferior buck will eventually die off and the big boys will take over. Yes Nyantler participation is required by every hunter otherwise it will not work. Trust me I know pleanty of hunters, some I am related to, that shoot the first deer they see. Not good for QDM, those are the guys I try and keep off my land.

ok so it is better th let the inferior bucks die than be harvested?  nopw there is an elite thought

[First-light]

Ar's will do nothing for the sport. The frustrated hunted will become more frustrated and need medication. Soon we will see ads for male hunting disfunction and a new pill will be on the market! lol

[Dinsdale]

I'm going with theory borne...

Mississippi is a good example.....started with AR's, they shot them up and ended up high grading. Now they have modified the program to beam length(as Texas in areas also) and now waiting for new results over the next few years.

Ah; more sophistication.......

and 7 pages to go......

[nyantler]

My opinion is that ARs are just a start for those that have a tough time passing up yearling bucks... I think most hunters already know the difference between a big buck and a yearling... i think things would work better if guys would just show some restraint on their own... the best thing would be hunters voluntarily passing on small bucks... so educating them on why is probably more important than mandating it... those of us that already have their own voluntary AR get just as much enjoyment out of hunting as those who haven't started yet

[Pat Rockets]

I feed my family with my take..racks are bonus..

[shu9265]

They way I look at it, when I am in the woods I am there to enjoy the outdoors and all the great things there are to see and hear.

If I get the chance to see a small (young) buck I like to watch them to see just how they behave, I will do the same with does and older bucks also.

I don't know much about this, but it seems to me that if you let the spikes and 4 points and 6 points pass this year then it only stands to reason that they should be even bigger and better next year.

I guess until there is some kind of law in effect that says " thou shall not shoot the little fella's"

There is always gonna be someone that is gonna shoot any deer that comes along.

[bubba]

ahh the foolish ideas of man to think they can alter nature.  Nature does it's own qdm.  Our part is to enjoy and harvest what is offered, not try to make it better for our own egos.  There are plenty of good bucks out there.  Do the work and get one.  Stop trying to take the work part out by making every buck a big trophy.  There will always be deer that will not make the grade.  So I guess we let them keep breeding and passing on the bad genes and eventually die of old age, as they wll never make it to legal size? I personally choose the deer I want to take and work to get him.  If I dont I dont.  But again it should be my choice. If you disagree, please refer to my sgnature.  Come on guys with a good weekend  of repeating ourselves, we can get this over 100. 

[nyantler]

ahh the foolish ideas of man to think they can alter nature.  Nature does it's own qdm.  Our part is to enjoy and harvest what is offered, not try to make it better for our own egos.  There are plenty of good bucks out there.  Do the work and get one.  Stop trying to take the work part out by making every buck a big trophy.  There will always be deer that will not make the grade.  So I guess we let them keep breeding and passing on the bad genes and eventually die of old age, as they wll never make it to legal size? I personally choose the deer I want to take and work to get him.  If I dont I dont.  But again it should be my choice. If you disagree, please refer to my sgnature.  Come on guys with a good weekend  of repeating ourselves, we can get this over 100.

Bubba, I contend that it is more foolish to believe that man has not already altered nature with his intrusion on their habitat.. If we are going to continue to consume the land that nature occupies... it is our duty to make sure that what we leave for nature will sustain it.

I agree that where you and I hunt there are plenty of good bucks.. but that is not true everywhere and that is a direct result of mans intrusion and his decision on how, when and what is being harvested...that applies to every animal not just whitetails

[bubba]

I contend it is as much to do with inbreeding, less harsh winters and over population.  So, if we take less deer out due to restrictions, these problems will get worse.  Take what you choose to take, as I do.  Actually we have antler restrictions now, more than 3 inches on one side.  If you shoot a spike with 2 inch antlers, or a button buck, you can  just slap an antlerless tag on it and keep going.  I will be willing to bet that if ar was in place, and you shot a buck with 2 on one side totally by mistake, you could do the same, to avoid breaking the law.  So what will really be accomplished.

[nyantler]

AR wouldn't necessarily have to mean less total deer kill... but i'll concede that there can't just be a blanket AR across the state.. and I would rather there be no need for AR as well... but it is a fact that NY is lacking when it comes to a solid age structure when it comes to whitetail bucks in most of the state with the exclusion maybe of the Adirondack Park... if hunters would show some restraint on their own maybe that would change...

[Doc]

AR wouldn't necessarily have to mean less total deer kill... but i'll concede that there can't just be a blanket AR across the state.. and I would rather there be no need for AR as well... but it is a fact that NY is lacking when it comes to a solid age structure when it comes to whitetail bucks in most of the state with the exclusion maybe of the Adirondack Park... if hunters would show some restraint on their own maybe that would change...

I believe the main reason that the DEC is against AR is that it interferes with their prime objective of having as many tools as possible for wacking on deer herds. Look at all the permanent moves that they have either implemented or championed in recent years. Everything from signing over permits to expanding the areas and times of more efficient deer hunting weapons. There is no doubt that the DEC has a vested interest in expanding harvest efficiency (for bucks or does), not the other way around. When do you remember any changes in rules or laws that actually curtailed harvests in any way. I can't think of a single one in recent decades. Yes they cut back on permits here and there occasionally, but that is a temporary move that can be undone at any time, in any year. AR on the other hand would be a permanent restrictive regulation to harvests. They simply do not do that!

[bubba]

how could there not be less deer killed the first few years?  If everyne who has to pass on the small deer they would normally be happy to take, then less deer are killed.  So for two to thre years the take is down the population goes up and all kinds of problems even if short term.  Plus after a year or two the average hunter is not allowed to take a buck, our hunter numbers will decrease.  Not everyne has the chance to hunt a big piece of private owned property where numbers and size can be increased by showing restraint and planting food to help the population get through the winter such as some are having.  If they have to limit themselves to a few weekends or days a year, and then can not shoot a deer, it will be a rapidly decreasing sport.  Yeah maybe in the long run, it would build back up.  I still say that if antlerless permits were not allowed to be placed on button bucks and less than 3 inch bucks, they would grow also.  But when they are taken out in big numbers every year before they even grow their first rack, that takes more of a toll on the buck size and population then shooting 4 points ever will.  If hunters were accountable for those actions rather than get a psss with an antlerless permit, things would change.  There would be many more small bucks around in their second season alive, and even if some were shot as 4 and small basket sixes, the ones not killed as button bucks would be around to grow. 

[Pat Rockets]

I have the PRIVALAGE of having an animal rights person in my family...it makes the holidays fun..but ar is a concern for her because of how it gets percieved..it just makes it look like the only thing your after is antlers..and hunting is now just for contests and rankings..

[Pat Rockets]

I had mentioned feeders before...because the reasoning behind it is just like a food plot any way..but im sure alotta people would fancy taking 2 yr old big bodied bucks and perhaps older bucks could make it thru for people like antler who get pissed when his buck doesnt have a wrinkly t-bag

[nyantler]

Simple Bubba.. in the area where the AR was implemented there would be more does taken to offset and make room for the additional bucks not taken.. these plans have been implemented all over the country without any problems... it isn't like the whole AR thing has never been attempted before... you can pick apart the plan all you want, but the proof of how GOOD AR's work have already been seen all across the country and even here in NY. The problem areas in NY are those areas where hunters have been left to do what THEY think needs to be done not what needs to be done in the way of producing a more balanced buck herd.

Take a look at any property where hunters have already started their own QDM plan.. I never here them complaining about the problems you just described.

I will be the first to agree that if AR's are devised simply to make more big bucks to kill then thats not a reason to have them.. I am just in favor of having a better balance and representation in the age classes of bucks

Rocket.. get off the whole antler thing.. you still don't get the whole buck age structure concept.

[Pat Rockets]

When they call it age restriction..ill believe that

[nyantler]

An thats your prerogative Rocket

[bubba]

more does and button bucks you  would be taken wouldnt you assume?  Which again i smore young bucks taken.  More does may be taken in areas where you get a lot of dmp's.  In my area you may get one every three years.  So are the guys who do not get one supposed to buy a license to pass up all the young bucks they see?

[Pat Rockets]

Hes probably runnin with a guide up there in them mountains bubba..it makes him the bestest ..hes probably republican too...

[gjs4]

I think this thread is the epitome of that analogy of the "Inmates running the asylum".

The states doesnt have a clue what it is doing beyond license sales (and even thats debatable) so we run around yelling here and not making a damn difference.

Here is my latest and greatest take...cant wait to hear the complaints.

Rather than ARs- I want accurate harvest/census data. I am all about older deer but the only attributes to ARs I like are more does proably being taken and the big one is knowing what youre shooting. Teh spray and pray Aholes are a safety concern amongst everything wrong with this activity/sport and management

[16. ga hunter]

i don't understand why "deer hunters get so hung up on this the deer heard in ny is doing fine as compared to other spieces. i don't hear upland bird hunters bitching and crying about the dwinling numbers of birds we pursue or the fact that you have had to hunt put and take pheasants in ny since the mid 80's. and grouse hunters could make quite a case the state not thining lands as needed to support decent populations of ruffed grouse in our state. or the changing farming practices that all but wiped out wild pheasnts in ny. a lack of buck age structre is nothing to compared to the plight of some of our small game animals eben with an imbalance the deer heard will sustain a huntable population. this can not be said for all spieces in ny but i guess that really dose not matter? just the whitetailed buck