Doc

I will say that when I exceed the speed limit, it is not a determined act in defiance of the law and is an unintentional slip-up. As an example, when I get on the NYS Thruway, I set my cruise control right at the speed limit. I do not go out there with the intention of breaking the law by setting it higher. On the other hand, all hunters know or have the capability of knowing the legal shooting times, shooting outside the legal hours is an intentional illegal act known to the hunter that does it.

At the following address: http://www.dec.ny.go...tdoor/8305.html I found this near the bottom under "Muzzleloading": "Hunters shall not have in their possession, or be accompanied by a person who has in his or her possession, a bow or firearm other than the legal muzzleloading firearm."

I believe what we are talking about here is individual responsibilities to live within a society of laws. No, I am not an anarchist and I do believe that laws are necessary, and good citizens of a society should probably abide by them or work to get them changed. If your solution to government corruption is to simply disregard all the laws that keep us a civilized society then all I can do is disagree.

Ever wonder what the effects of massive proliferation of food plots may have on deer patterns? I have heard all of the tales of massive numbers of trail cam deer all of a sudden disappearing. You have to wonder if these are not just a case of a neighboring food plot becoming the tastiest food source around. I don't know, just wondering. We don't have a lot of food-plots in our area, so I don't think we are impacted at all. But I know other areas where there may be food plot wars going on ...... lol.

That is a sad commentary on where all this antler-phobia has driven people. It is not the law that is making dishonest people out of some, but more the fact that people have come to measure their hunting success in inches of antler as they have been taught on the Saturday morning TV hunter-heroes. The result is an any-thing-goes attitude regarding disrespect for game laws.

I could get behind something like that. I think the end result would be a lot more voluntary antler restrictions where hunters would try very hard to make that one buck a good one. No, not everyone, but a lot more than the way things are today.

Prior to starting the hunt, I get on the computer and check sunrise and sunset for the day, while I am getting wind directions and other valuable weather related info. I do own a watch to tell time while I am hunting. If we're so lazy or mentally unable to do those two things, maybe it's time to leave the gun or bow in the rack. If you are so damn desperate to get a deer that you don't care about the law, that might be another good reason to leave the gun in the rack and take up some other pastime. Every year, I hear shots when it is practically dark. Seriously, it is conditions where whatever they are shooting at has to be just fuzzy blobs of movement. And we are supposed to ok a notion that the hunter knows best when to quit? You have a law ...... just follow it.

There is something scary about someone who would panic to that level of running over something like trespass. If the guy is that spooked, who the heck knows exactly what kinds of crazy things he might do when he feels cornered. This guy was so crazy that he even dropped his gun. That is a pretty big sign of extreme desperation. Maybe in another similar scenario, one of these goofs might decide to use that gun. You never know what kind of mentality you can run into out there.

The question relates to compliance with laws. Well, do you pick and choose what other laws to abide by. You used the speed limit vs. the shooting hours law. How about having a license? Do you believe that that law should be left up to the discretion of the individual? How about bag limits? Is that one that you can abide by or not depending on how you feel. Should you be able to shoot a deer even though you don't have any tags left. Directly at the law in question, do you believe that people should ignore the illegality of shooting deer after dark. What the heck your out there with your gun in the dark and you have a good light ..... go for it.....right? The fact is that you can ignore any law you want to, but ignoring a law is wrong whether it be game laws or vehicular operation laws. You may choose to ignore the law, but don't pretend that there is something right about doing so.

I spend a lot of time up on my hill all times of the year. So believe me when I say that I find a lot of trespassers. My property is very heavily posted such that no one can enter without always being within sight of at least three signs at any point on the boundary. I have found dirt bikers, mountain bikers, horseback riders, hunters, hikers, vandals, and have found the remnants of campfires that were built at some rather hazardous dry times of the year. So I don't know whether your post is intended to call to question whether claims of trespassers are lies or what you are really getting at. But I will flat out tell you that not only do trespassers exist, but they exist on a very regular frequency. Actually, there are a few threads that have included game camera pictures of trespassers, so it isn't quite accurate to say that none of this is documented. As for taking pictures of stands, I'm not sure what that would prove that a simple post description does not. Are we doubting that unauthorized stands do show up on private lands? I don't doubt that it happens and happens regularly. Regarding poachers, I have no reason to question anyone who claims to know of, or suspect poaching activity. And that would include anywhere that there are deer. Again, I don't know what this thread is getting at, but I really don't believe that there are too many people who don't think poachers exist.

I completely understand what is meant by "a bad season". Everything is relative. I have had good seasons and bad seasons. Yes, some are better than others. I don't have any magic that can produce deer that aren't there. I don't claim any mystical powers or hunting prowess that exceeds Daniel Boone's .... lol. So unfortunately I am at the mercy of whatever is put before me. And some years that will be more opportunities, or certain levels of luck when everything simply comes together. My good and bad seasons are the product of some internal measure of success, and yes, I am out there to get a deer or two. When that don't happen, I am having a "bad" season. It doesn't happen very often, but I do remember a couple. I have also had some very exceptional seasons also. They all average out to a very satisfactory life of hunting. That's all I really ask of something that is simply recreation.

1. Return of a large coyote population. Maybe 2. Early opening of archery season (Oct. 1). This cannot explain anything about current conditions because the southern Zone earlier archery season has not been in effect long enough to be impacting current populations. 3. Early crossbow season, 2 weeks before firearms season. This also cannot explain anything about current populations because this is the first year that they have been allowed outside of regular gun season. plus, I don't believe that we have begun to see large scale participation with crossbows ..... Yet. 4. Early firearms youth hunt. While I have never seen real harvest numbers I do not believe the participation is significant enough to have any impact on herd sizes. 5. Too many deer management permits being given out in recent years. Maybe 6. Issuing of "deer nuisance" permits. Maybe Or maybe it is: crop harvests or outside interferences Hikers, bikers, dog walkers, ATVs, dirt bikes, etc. or snowmobile harassment when deer are trying to maintain delicate winter fat reserve levels or dogs or a sudden change in preferred food availability or poaching or the introduction of rifles as deer hunting weapons during previous years (if that is the case) or rut activity can also move herds to different patterns or housing or other kinds of land development or habitat deterioration or previous years of over populations that are finally being brought under control. or any of the other possibilities that have already been mentioned.

Seems to be a lot of that story missing.

Unfortunately, I never could shoot my bow worth a damn when I am all bundled up looking like the Michelin Man. And I never did work up an interest in a muzzleloader. Besides, I have as much venison as the two of us can eat. I don't need any more. I hope all you guys have fun and a lot of luck.

By the way, I am guilty of violating one of my own pet peeves of posting data without identifying the source. So let me correct that now.... The address of the blaze orange vs hunting accident chart is: http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/hunting/safety/docs/Hunting_Associated_Injuries_and_Wearing_Hunter_Orange_Clothing.pdf There was some other interesting little tid-bits in that article also. Some may want to look at the whole thing instead of just what I lifted out for re-post.

Hey ..... Thanks for the permission. To me the Blaze Orange debate is an important one and is worthy of discussion.

Only 8 pages??? Boy! you guys are getting soft.

For some reason we always want to believe that just because somebody participates in things like hunting, that they are all up-standing wonderful people. Well, here is just another indication that hunters represent the same cross-section of people that any other group does. And yes, we have our fair share of wackos too. It's something to stay aware of when dealing with other hunters. People have shot each other, on purpose, over hunting issues. It's unfortunate, but simply the way some people are. We have not yet figured out how to eliminate the weirdos from our ranks and probably never will.

Actually what is not reflected in these stats is the comparative percentages of those that wear blaze orange vs. those that do not. that overwhelming percentage of accidents involving those that are not using blaze orange is coming from a minority percentage of hunters, which makes them even more significant. As to the argument as to whether blaze orange should be mandatory, I will leave that to others to debate. Like I said earlier, it would not break my heart if it became law, because like so many have already concluded, wearing blaze orange during a firearms deer season is pretty much the only sane thing to be doing. However, do not think that the only victim in an accident are those that recklessly hit the deer woods trying their best not to be seen by fellow hunters, or those that think they are proving some kind of point about their "Libertarian" attitudes. There are families and friends left behind that have to go through the grieving process and frequently financial hardships when the breadwinner is suddenly removed from the family. Also, the next time you draw a bead on a deer, take a look at the jumble of downed logs, trees and brush and ask yourself if you are 100% certain that tucked back in there, there isn't some fool hunkered down there in his camo suit. Don't see anyone ....right? Well that's because we have some pretty good camo these days and it does what it's supposed to do. But then too, think what your life would be like if as you pulled the trigger you found out he was there by the scream when he was hit. I wouldn't want to be thrust into that scenario because some hard-head is out there demonstrating his "rights".

Just a compilation of stats (accidents vs. blaze orange usage). You make of them whatever you want. some are relevant, some are not. But for those that want to apply a bit of logic and reasoning, they do tell the story that not using blaze orange definitely puts you in the wrong column.

Ha-ha ..... best trophy money can buy. Hey ..... some people think that's what hunting is all about. For them it's all about ego. They spend their time looking for peer acceptance and that's all hunting is to them.

I wonder if the day will come when we all stop getting so wacked out when people decide not to listen to our magical words of wisdom as to how people must hunt. I am one of those that tries not to let hunting become some kind of mind-bending torture that chases after every word uttered by the TV and magazine "experts". I do not have to hunt to feed my family or myself. It is not my job. If I don't harvest the biggest deer and impress all my buddies with what I do get, my life is not ruined and I don't feel like the worlds biggest failure. So, I guess if my car is low on gas, I'll probably fill it up without having it ruin my day. And if I feel like having bacon and eggs at a restaurant before hunting, I probably won't return home in disgust feeling like the whole day of hunting has been completely trashed. Hell, I may even drag some of that stinky food along to my stand.....lol. If somehow that attitude equates to being a slob-hunter in some minds, then as far as I am concerned the problem is their minds and the fact that they have let something that in this day and age should be a relaxing pastime become perverted into some sort of do-or-die activity.

Data from NYS between 1989 and 1995 Reason for accident: Mistaken for game 5% wore B/O 94% did not 1% unknown Reason for accident: Out of sight 37% wore B/O 58% did not 5% unknown Reason for accident: In Line of Fire 30% wore B/O 62% did not 8% unknown Reason for accident: unintentional discharge 28% wore B/O 69% did not 3% unknown Reason for accident: struck by ricochet 35% wore B/O 62% did not 3% unknown Reason for accident: Other/ Unknown 44% wore B/O 66% did not 0% unknown Total of all reasons 24% wore B/O 73% did not 3% unknown Obviously, blaze orange is not a magic bullet that eliminates all hunting accidents. However, the numbers do show that the use of blaze orange does have a significant impact on safety.

This is one of those rare occasions where I agree with Bubba .... lol. Everytime our second amendment rights are challenged, we hear all this bravado and lip service about how the gun owners are all going to stage this massive riot or huge uprising. Seriously? ... Didn't anyone pay any attention to this past election. Yes we did ok on the local levels, but anything that had any ties to NYC went very bad for us. We should have been able to give Cuomo the boot, but we really are a paper tiger........ A lot of mouth, but very little backbone and action. Oh, we do stage a very impressive bunch of demonstrations, but when it comes to a simple act of casting votes, I'm afraid that the Tuesday line-up of TV programming takes a higher priority.

Kind of looks like some hunters under-shorts. I wouldn't mess with that one.