Doc

Congratulations on your choice to join the bowhunting community. Understand that you are signing up for an intense training session consisting of some rigorous practice and learning. That's not a problem because most likely, you will find yourself fascinated with the bow and arrow and will likely become a bit fanatic about shooting. My first suggestion would be to find a reputable, successful, bow shop rather than simply looking for bargains at the big box outdoor stores or internet deals. Understand that employees at the archery departments may likely be better at job interviews than actual knowledge. It's not that they are all dummies, but the odds of finding unqualified archery pros at those general all-purpose outdoor stores is extremely high. Also, there are some very good buys on the internet, but what you need is hands on guidance and real assistance. It may feel like you are putting yourself at their mercy, but the first words out of your mouth should be to tell them that you are brand new at archery and need some very basic help. That would probably be a good time to mention what your upper limit is on your purchase. Check out a few catalogs just to see how the prices run. I have no idea what your financial situation is, but I would guess that you might be looking for a middle of the road price range where you have decent quality at a price that won't break the bank. I am assuming that you have no acquaintances that are pretty good archers. If you do, you should pick their brain as much as possible before committing your first dollar. I am going to assume that you are going to be interested in a compound rather than a recurve or longbow. If that is not the case, there is a whole different way of looking for and choosing equipment. So, that is your first decision. Your second decision is to decide whether you will be using a mechanical release or not. This effects your draw length which is super important with a compound bow. If you have decided on a release, you will need to use the specific one that you intend to buy for determining your draw length. You will need the guy at the archery shop to first measure your draw length. I would guess that given the mindset today, I would recommend that you do go with a release. The decision is yours and I'm sure there are plenty of people who will argue against starting with a release. But the decision is really yours to make. A release is an aid to a more consistent arrow launch, and I would guess that the greater percentage of archers find it a useful accessory. I am recommending that draw length be established by actually having you draw with a marked measuring arrow rather than some of the less reliable "rule of thumb" kinds of ways to determine draw length. And by the way, along with the release, most guys are shooting a "D-loop" on the string. That also effects draw length. So that should be installed also when measuring draw length. While he is measuring your draw length, it is a good time to have him suggest an anchor point and have him watch how you draw to look for signs of over-bowing (too much draw weight to handle). Your ability to draw more poundage after you have shot for a short while while will change upward, so whatever bow poundage you and he agree on should be the lower range of the bows adjustability. Make sure he is commenting on your form, and the way that you are handling the bow. That first visit should feel as much like an archery lesson as it feels like equipment purchase. Make sure he understands that this is what you are looking for. That completes the initial info that you and he need for bow selection. Now comes the arrow selection. From the draw weight decision and the draw length measurements, he can recommend some arrows. The material of the arrows is another opinion based decision, and you will get as many different answers as those who offer their opinions. Check out the prices of the different materials and find one that fits your budget. At this point, I would guess that he will start running through a few bows that he has in stock so that you can shoot a few of them, and get the feel of what feels natural to you, and smooth to draw, and relatively quiet on release. Once you have decided on a bow, have him finish off the custom set up. You may consider using a peep sight and a bow sight. try not be too traumatized with sticker shock with these accessories. These guys really know how to charge for each little trinket. Oh, I didn't mention looking up a good book on archery just to familiarize yourself with terminology when talking to the shop owner. I know that I must have forgotten a bunch of things, but this ought to be a good start for others to add on to or offer their own viewpoints. I should also add that it would be a good idea to shoot for about a half hour to an hour before taking your rig home just to check for infant mortality types of problems. One other thought..... I know there are those that will say to let the guy at the bow shop spend all this time getting you all figured out and measured up, and then take that info to the nearest computer and order at the place with the best price. Out of courtesy to the bow-pro, that probably would not be the most ethical thing to do. I would not do that. On your next purchase (and I'm absolutely sure that some day there will be another one....lol), feel free to go anywhere that you want, but if this guy has spent a decent amount of time on you and performed a proper level of service, it is the right thing to do to make your purchase there. Also if things go wrong, you will have a throat to grab if need be hopefully just a short drive from home. Ok guys ...... What did I leave out? What do you disagree with? What would you all recommend differently? I think this was a good starting point.

Yup! That's woodpecker work. The bad news is that you know he wasn't just doing that for exercise. That tree has some sort of infestation.

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but my understanding was that it was to be like a Bass-pro/Cabelas style store. But I don't know where I got that idea. Perhaps just wishful thinking.....lol.

I have heard stories of guys emptying their guns into the ground, stepping off their treestand platforms and doing all kinds of wild things. It is a crazy affliction that as far as I know, has no real psychological explanation.

Long shots do have a place on the archery range. They are just plain fun, and as mentioned, long shots can build confidence and actually improve shorter more realistic hunting shots because of that confidence. I love to take 80 yard shots on a range, and as a matter of fact 80 yards is one of the distances required on an NFAA Field Round. That's not a real easy shot, but it is fun to just sit back and watch the arrow arc up and eventually get to the target. Most archers are doing well to simply hit the butt, and these would be archers who do shoot on a regular basis. Actually that shot can be pretty humbling even for the better archers, but it is still always fun.

What on earth is the Henrietta Gander Mountain going to do when a real store (Field and Stream) comes to town. I guess they have two choices. Either straighten up their act and make it a real competition, or just close their doors and give up the Rochester area. I'd like to see the two of them fight it out.

Good old buck fever..... It can strike at any time and in a whole bunch of different ways. Even with all my years of deer hunting, a couple of years back, during bow season, I experienced a rather weird physical reaction to a huge buck that actually was a bit scary. I had a buck come out of a very thick brushy area at about 30 yards. He was just beyond the area that I had cleared for a 20 yard shot, so while I could see him clearly, there was no shot available. He traveled about 15 yards broadside in front of me, heading for the edge of an old field with absolutely no chance of a shot. Then he turned around and went back to the heavy brush that he originally came out of. Then he turned around and headed back toward the field again. Back and forth he went, each time passing the little trail that could have led him right in front of me at 20 yards. A couple of times he actually turned and started to come onto that trail that would have put him on my side of that light brush screening that was protecting him. He kept plaguing me like that for about 15 or 20 minutes. Under those circumstances, that was an eternity. I could feel the excitement getting out of control as he worked me into a wacked out case of buck fever. At one point I had to actually concentrate on calming myself down by looking away for a bit. I was actually getting quite light headed, and that got me a bit concerned. That was a scary reaction that I have never experienced before or since. In the end, he simply went back into the heavy brush and never came back out. I honestly believe that if he had come out into the open, I would have had a hard time actually getting the shot off. Seriously, that extended length of super high tension had me damn near paralyzed. Normally, these things happen so fast that none of the excitement gets a chance to work me into the state that I was in. But this particular back and forth nonsense really had me worked up into a serious case of buck fever. So, what is the most peculiar case of buck fever with strange reactions, that any of you have experienced or heard of?

Before you attempt to side-track the discussion with the idea of anyone putting legal limits on range, let me point out that no one has even hinted at that.

I have a copy of that video, and for me that was the first time I had ever seen actual video documentation of "string jumping" as well. It is a pretty darn undeniable picture. Since that time, I have seen a lot of video examples of just how quick deer reactions are like ...... Almost fly-like.....lol. As much as people want to treat archery equipment like firearms, there is always the unmistakable video evidence that brings all this back to reality.

This discussion reminds me of an engineer I used to work with who was able to consistently keep his arrows in a coffee-cup sized group at 60 yards. But when a deer was in front of him, he dinged and wounded and lost more deer than anyone I've ever known. In one season, he wounded and lost 5 separate deer. His shots all averaged right around that 60 yard distance, and no matter how many people told him to limit that distance, he continued to wound deer, trying to shoot out to his maximum practice range proficiency. It became so exasperating that I started to avoid any hunting conversations with him because I knew he would just list off another string of recently wounded deer because of his bull-headedness. I imagine that all these years, he's likely been continuing stuffing arrows into deer parts that were never intended to be hit. He was deadly on the practice range with stationery targets but never seemed to recognize that there is a lot more to connecting on live animals than just maxing out his abilities every time out. Some people just never do get it. He simply was just another of those hard-heads that didn't care about his reputation for screwing up or that his stubbornness was being paid for by the animals he was hunting and wounding.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall anyone being called any names .... that's for starters. Secondly, yes, I am for putting limits on bowhunters.....self imposed limits of logic and conscience. The thought of people out there with no limits on shot selection is a frightening one regardless of weapon used. And yes, those kinds of attitudes left unchallenged do usually result in a huge disservice to the sport of bowhunting. Third, I believe that those who don't speak out when they feel advice is crossing the line, are just as bad as those that peddle that misleading nonsense in forums or anywhere else. If you are a person of principle, you cannot let irresponsibility and irresponsible statements stand unchallenged. Fourth, it has to be acknowledged that we do have young or inexperienced beginning bowhunters who really don't need to be misled by wild statements of expectation. Here again, to just sit back and let mis-information pass on to beginners is as bad as the person making such bogus statements. Fifth, your theoretical formula for setting your limits based on what you can do on an archery range with static and controlled conditions that in no way represent real hunting situations, completely ignores all the potential uncontrollable variables that have been pointed out no fewer than a half dozen times each on this thread alone. Ignoring those may be convenient, but gives a very misleading picture of real capabilities.

No guides, but the law required the services of an outfitter. To satisfy the legal requirement, we rented a cabin from Shining Tree Camp for the week. They supplied the licenses. We stayed in the cabin the first night because of our late arrival time and took off on our own the next day. And also the last night we used the cabin for a good night's sleep before heading home. The land where we were hunting was crown land, available to anyone, but no one makes the effort to crawl back in as far as we did. The whole deal was planned in the engineering offices of Xerox, and we spent an entire year working out the details. We started off with topo maps and selected the lakes and swamps and camp area. We bought tapes and magazine articles on moose calling. We took no canned items in, and operated completely on freeze-dried foods and the better part of the diet consisted of fish that we caught in the mid-day hours (Man they were good!). We had one guy that was really great at filleting northerns and walleyes, and he was one heck of a cook too. Oh, and I never mentioned that it was a bow hunt. By the way, this all happened back in 1986, so I don't even know if Shining Tree Camp still exists, and if it does, I am sure that someone else owns it by now. I'm also sure that the cost is no where near as cheap as it was back then. Four of us spent only $500 each .... total price. Even back then that was super cheap. I loved the fact that it was all DIY, and successfully done without any guides.

One thing that comes to mind is the question of whether or not they are using the same metrics when they compile the info. That could make a heck of a difference in any comparisons from one year to another.

I was there. It was deep into Ontario Canada. Up to a place called Shining Tree. Then 40 miles farther on a nasty dirt road. Then into a lake and all the way to the end of that lake. A 150 yard portage to another lake and then all the way down the second lake. A campsite carved out of the brush, and finally all set up for a moose hunt. No cabins. No people. No roads or foot-paths. No signs of people. No cars, trains, or even the sound of planes. Just moose, bears, beavers, otters, martens, walleyes, pike and a gray jay that would eat out of your hand. I have never heard such quiet. It was paradise. Probably a real crappy place to be in the winter, but in late fall there is no place that's better. Oh yeah, it was cut way too short when it was all interrupted by having to pack out one huge pile of moose-meat after only a few days.

Honestly, I don't know whether it is some kind of macho thing when people imagine that they can routinely pull off those kinds of super long shots or whether it is just some total disregard for the prey that they hunt that makes them not care that they are taking irresponsible shots. But, when people start relying on luck with their shooting, to make up for their lack of hunting skills to get close enough to do the job right, it does kind of rub me the wrong way. I will not say that 100 yard kills on deer cannot be made. It all is relative to how many wounded losses you are willing to accept, or how little a messed up shot on a live deer bothers you. If you don't care about such things, start flinging arrows until something finally drops. But don't be coming on here and trying to make like those are average shots that people should be taking, here or anywhere else. You simply will be called out every time. You are doing the sport of bowhunting a terrible injustice, and hopefully newcomers to bowhunting will recognize BS when they read it. And it serves no one to simply let this kind of irresponsible talk stand without challenge. The reasons why those shots should be passed has been well documented in this thread. Those that choose to ignore all that just to satisfy some kind of machismo I guess probably will do that regardless of what is said. Irresponsibility is simply a given in any form of hunting and no amount of arguing on a forum is ever going to change that. But damn us if we don't try.

That's funny, when I started thinking about how long I have been bowhunting in the last reply, I also started thinking about the mindset of bowhunters back then. You know the whole reason that I got into bowhunting back then was the challenge of having to get close to the deer. Actually, everyone that I knew was kind of into that same thing. The whole deal was having the hunting skill to get within 20 yards or less of a deer, drawing back the bow without getting spotted, and then making the shot. The emphasis was on woodslore and stealth. That's where the challenge came from and that's where the satisfaction came from. That's what separated the bow season from the gun season. Somehow over the years the whole mentality of bowhunting has shifted away from the "hunting" part of it, and has become a reliance on what technology some guy in an office can invent to get the deer for us. When did we decide that the idea of bowhunting was to see how far away we can shoot a deer? With that kind of mentality, I can't figure out why people don't go all the way with that thinking and simply stay with the gun. What is all this screwing around with bows and crossbows if you are going to maintain the gun shooting mentality and try to turn these weapons of challenge into just another long distance machine? Doesn't anybody take any pride in up-close and personal hunting skills anymore?

Shooting the bow since I was 11, when I built my first hickory longbow ..... lol. Got my first bowhunting license in 1965 ..... Damn! That'll be 49 years this fall. Never missed a season in all those years.

Wow, I really don't know what is going on in this forum these days, but it is getting so that you can't even answer a question without someone turning it into some kind of huge manufactured controversy. What seems to be the problem here? A bit too much cabin fever or what? I would suggest that people stop looking for ulterior motives in every word that is typed here, and try a bit harder at not making more out of things than what's really there. Let's see if we can work our way back to a little bit of cordiality and at least an attempt at civil discussion.

Ha-ha ... kind of goofy to ask a question that you can answer yourself in a few seconds. But anyway, I was happy to do it.

You asked the question, I answered it. There is no bias in simple math, so I have no clue where you conjured up such a crazy comment. And of course none of that has anything to do with disrespecting this or disrespecting that. It is all simple math directed specifically at your question. Whatever you are manufacturing in your mind, or trying to start here, I can't begin to guess. All I can tell you is, If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question.

Yes, I believe I answered the exact question you asked and then some. And I wasn't answering for anybody, but simply responding directly to your question.

An arrow that travels at an average speed of *300 f/sec for 75 yards takes .75 seconds to travel that distance. A deer walking at an average **3.5 MPH will advance 46.2 inches in that .75 seconds. An arrow that travels at an average speed of *300 f/sec for 100 yards takes 1.00 seconds to travel that distance. A deer walking at an average **3.5 MPH will advance 61.6 inches in that 1.00 second. *Note that the assumed arrow speed is the average over the specified distance and assumes no deceleration due to air drag. **the 3.5 - 4 MPH average walking speed of a deer is from "The Deer of North America" Leonard Lee Rue III

But anyway, it can be fun to watch. I once had a motorized moving deer target on my range behind the house. Only on mine I had a speed control operated by someone other than the shooter. We also found out that you could get the support wire bouncing up and down a bit. It was fun and broke up the boredom of some of our longer shooting sessions. The distance was limited, and the farthest we could get was about 30 yards because I wanted to use the hill as a back-stop. Yeah it was fun, and also did point up just how silly trying to shoot at running deer would actually be.

Don't be apologizing for watching Fox News. It's good to see the story choices taking on something besides that constant liberal slant. What the heck most of the news organizations are a mere mouthpiece for the leftist's point of view anyway. So this would be a story I wouldn't expect to see broadcast on most of the mainstream media anyway.

Oh it can be done in a hunting situation too ........ once in a while. Ha-ha, I love the realism of those indoor running deer targets. Moving along straight as a string at a constant speed. Just exactly like a real running deer .... eh?