Doc

Hunting is a huge collection of combined activities. Marksmanship is one element of hunting. Patterning the prey and getting close enough is another element of hunting, understanding your prey is another part, and on and on. They are all pieces of hunting. So yes long-range harvests are "hunting". Is long range hunting as challenging as styles of hunting that require up-close-and-personal harvests? .... Well, that is a different discussion. But no, shooting distance is not the entire definition of what is hunting and what is not.

All these sighting and glowing reports, and yet I read in the latest NYON that the DEC is reporting a less than stellar deer take this past season. Something doesn't add up. We all know what we are seeing, so why isn't this showing up in the harvest numbers?

No. There is no "archery only" season where guns are not being used. When they wanted a fall turkey season, they jumped in with the bow hunters. When they wanted a youth firearms season, it got shoved into bow season. We share pieces of the bow season with small game hunters, and some chunks of muzzleloader hunters. Also there is no pure gun season either. They share that season with bowhunters and now crossbow hunters. So no, there are no pieces of the hunting year that are dedicated to archery and then others that are dedicated to guns. We already have mixed seasons. That precedent is established. I know what you were getting at about the two attempted distinctions but that is the misconception that most people have, and I just wanted to clarify that the distinctions only apply until someone wants to change them. There are plenty of examples. There were some WMUs recently that were threatened with muzzleloader incursion if the bowhunters didn't control the deer population. It was simple....The DEC just made a decree. Regarding legal seasons and weapons, it would be wise to bear in mind that technology isn't done messing with us. There are things coming at us that we can't even imagine yet. Also we as archers have to remember that guns are legal hunting implements and slipping them into any part of the hunting year is as simple as conjuring up a case for necessity brought about by any interested party and a DEC declaration. So when we get all complacent and confident that we are setting the limits, definitions, and lines in the sand, we have to understand that it is all temporary, and that at anytime we can find ourselves in the same boat that NYB found themselves in when someone else decided that they wanted a piece of the bow season. And likely we will have just as little luck as they did regardless of how convinced we are that there are absolutes that agree with our preconceived opinions and lines in the sand. All that crap means nothing when someone is determined to move in and take over. Someone else may have their own little brain-fart about how they need more options and choices, and it may not necessarily be a happy event.

One thing that no one is looking at is the fact that no matter how you try to set the rules......You have to understand that you do not set the rules. You all seem to be content declaring what should or should not be allowed in the seasons as if you really had the power to decree such things. You have to look farther down the road and even take a few looks back at history. Understand that it is all about precedents. Understand that the introduction of compounds was the precedent for crossbows. Nobody knew that at the time, but as soon as the bows allowed in bow season started to add pulleys and cables and eccentrics and cams, the stage was set for the next step. Now we have set up the next stage for season intrusion. We have crossbows. And you people think it will stop there because you have all independently declared a new line in the sand and your own little definitions that talk about meaningless things like "stick & string" and bent limbs and other arbitrary definitions that none of you really have any power to decree. The old-timers of early archery had some inkling of this creeping change when they were against allowing the compound. And yes even I argued against the old-timers because I didn't understand the principles of precedents and creeping technology. But I understand it now. They tried to decree some basic rules and definitions and found out that their "opinions" and arbitrary, bogus, definitions meant nothing. Bow season will change as long as the majority of hunters want that season. What it will change to is as open as all the technological possibilities. And if gun hunters want that chosen season, there will come a time when they will simply take it. Some of that has happened already. They will use the same arguments of choice, elitism, selfishness and all the other slams and slurs that crossbow advocates used on bowhunters to shoehorn their way into bow season. I can't stop it any more than archers of the future will be able to stop it. But I do refuse to help it all along.

The whole post that I was responding to was talking about providing choice of weapons even to the point of using spears and atlatls and such. Now you are breaking down the season into distinctions and qualifications and more rules for definitions for exclusion and limiting choices just like the bowhunters tried to do. They tried to say what bow season was intended for with their version of what constituted a bow season, and that was declared selfish and elitist and exclusionary. And now just as I predicted, the crossbow advocates are hanging on to their season-grab and turning on anyone else that tries to enter. I am simply looking for consistency and not simply changing the rules only to support your own viewpoint and wishes.

I am simply testing some of these arguments for consistency.

Before you can declare a "Best Hunter", you have to establish the criteria. What makes a superior hunter? Is it quantity, quality, a certain species, the largest collection of species, ability to attract species through farming techniques, Ability to find game where little exists, Hunting style, range and effectiveness of the weapon used, technology used, amount of time used, knowledge of woods lore and animal habits and patterns? It goes on and on and I'll bet I haven't even scratched the surface of all the criteria. And then how do you rank all these different aspects of hunting? Which ones are more important than others? This is what you have to contend with when you turn hunting into a competition.

Quite a convincing set of arguments. The only question I have about all that is, "When are you going to start advocating that gun hunters not be excluded from the early season"? Expand the opportunities of choice to them too. Don't you see a bit of hypocrisy shouting and screaming about the selfish elitism of bowhunters while you all turn around and argue for the exclusion of gun hunters? Come-on.....You want to champion weapons choices? Don't all those same arguments apply when you willfully exclude guns from the early season? I think they do.

Hey....Life's a bitch and then you die. Try not to be a pain in arse while that's all happening.....lol. I think the problem is that I never got into the entitlement mode that is setting in with a lot of people. But as I have been saying right along, if you really feel that the bow season field needs leveling, then don't be half-way about it. Why are you thinking that the old-timers and the infirm should be saddled with the awkward, heavy and clunky crossbows. Be consistent in your thinking and let the guns in. But no, it turns out that there is that selfish, elitist, exclusionary thing at work even amongst the crossbow enthusiasts isn't there? It wasn't just bowhunters was it?

You know, there are a lot of the Adirondack high peaks that are past my abilities now. But I am not lobbying for the state to build a road to the top. I cannot do foot races anymore, but I do not ask anyone to change the rules so I can do the races in a car. There are a lot of things that I can no longer do, but I understand that there comes a time for all of us that we gracefully accept aging and not make the rest of the world accommodate me.

What the Hell are you talking about? Did you even read my reply or are you a bit challenged in the reading comprehension area? I was merely explaining that your description of the effects on gunfire during bow season was what some might crudely call B.S. I was trying to be a bit nice about it as I explained to you the real causes of deer slipping into the full survival mode. Calm down a bit and get control of yourself.

This is the time of year that deer start losing their winter coat. I have gobs of deer hair all over my front yard. They will be going through a disgusting looking stage of blotchy, scroungey looking hair-do that makes them look like they've got mange....lol. Nothing to worry about it is just the change from the winter coat to the summer coat.

This is all well and good, but how do you prove that a trophy is or is not, a genetically enhanced mutant? What a shame it is that hunting has come to this. The antler craze has driven hunting to a new low.

Actually, we already have some fairly active gun hunting activity happening already, and it goes on before and during bow season. And yet the deer do not go nocturnal as witnessed by bowhunting success rates. There is a significant turkey season that also occurs during bow season. We have small game hunters after squirrels and such and others that simply go through the woods shooting trees and simply slam-banging at anything that moves and a lot things that don't. And yet the deer continue to move in daylight hours for bow hunters. Target shooting and sighting in guns doesn't seem to have much impact on deer behavior either. I have seen feeding deer not even lift their heads when shots go off not all that far from them. The primary effect of regular gun season is the massive human stink at every area of the woods. When they start bumping into one hunter after another, gun or bow, they take the hint and slide into full instinctive survival mode. That is what puts them into a nocturnal activity mode.

Basically, it shows nothing. It may indicate that bowhunters are in the minority of all deer hunters, but if we are to be honest , these kinds of unscientific polls with unregulated criteria and an insignificant sampling size tell us nothing at all.

Ha-ha-ha...... why don't you crossbow enthusiasts demonstrate even more selflessness and drop that selfish elitism and instead push for allowing old gunners to use the early bow season as well? Why are you crossbow enthusiasts such selfish exclusionary elitists. I know some old guys that just can't tolerate the snow and cold of the gun season and really are being pushed out of hunting because they are not allowed in the warmer part of the deer hunting seasons. Just imagine how great it would be to give hunters "real choice" in weaponry during all of the fall hunting seasons. What a great gesture of selflessness it would be!

I'm a little partial to some nice grain fed black angus prime rib. I think I'll pass on the "cat, rat, dog, horse" meals and probably never really be missing out on much. Maybe some day if I am on the verge of starvation, I might be forced to get into those kinds of meals. But for now, I have earned a pretty good living over the years that has funded my retirement to the point where I don't have to forage for weird foods that I am unaccustomed to......lol.

So far, no one has posted claiming to be an educated wildlife biologist involved directly in any of the studies of CWD, so this whole thread is lacking in any credibility. Everyone is just parroting this study or that study without having the real credentials to be taken seriously by anyone. Relax guys. There is no one here that is going to have any real impact on the issue. It is not likely that a competition of insults will have any impact at all on the subject.

I love anecdotal arguments. It's as though there is anyone of us that expand their tiny realm of known bowhunters to include everyone, everywhere. Not a lot of credibility in those kinds of statements. It probably says more about the kind of people that you hang around, than anything about the general bowhunter population. But I will say that if we spend all our time and energy hacking on each other, the likely result is that people will quickly assume that neither weapon is a humane hunting weapon. Is that the impression you are trying to push?

I am assuming that you feel that this forum survey is a bona fide scientific study. I am not a statistician or any credible expert on survey taking, but I suspect that most people with that training would probably have a good laugh at our little amateur attempt at a credible survey.....lol.

It's the wonderful world of statistics. Little, teeny, tiny, levels of sampling size magically expanded out to meet the entirety of whatever it is that they are trying to tally up. All of wild game management is based on that same science.....lol.

Sure, that's nothing new. We hear that same sentiment with gun hunters about bowhunters all the time getting first crack at the big bucks and how unfair that is. Hell that's the sentiment that has driven the crossbow craze and their eagerness to shove their way into bow season. That's why everyone wants to elbow their way into bow season. They all want a chance push their way into the early season so they can be the ones that have the first chance at getting "their deer". But you know, when the muzzleloaders decide they want a piece of the pie (and they will), it will be all these new crossbow hunters that will holler the loudest and be very vocal about excluding them. Welcome aboard fellas to the gang of selfish, exclusionary, elitists as you all enjoyed calling us. Or maybe the outcry won't be as loud because we are moving towards an "anything goes" bow season which may well be what you all really want to happen anyway.

What do you intend to use it for? If you are going to use it for its original purpose, simply put an edge on it and a handle and start whacking away. I mean, the metal is all pitted and will never look like new without putting more work into it than it is worth. And really in order to cut wood, it doesn't need to look like new. If you want to display it as some kind of keepsake or memento from the land, leave it alone and put it on display the way it is.

That's an interesting question. We're worrying about the elderly being deprived of the bow season because of their unfortunate infirm condition. Why do we insist on putting any restrictions on their ability to have their choices as to what to use and when to use it. Just some more exclusionary thinking......right?

"Yank some fish lips"......Ha-ha-ha-ha! I guess I am ready to yank a few fish lips too.