Doc

There is really only one true way to hunt. You should lie on top of a limb overhanging a trail and wait for a deer to walk underneath. When that happens, you drop down on it's back, bite it in the neck and wrestle it to the ground. Nothing else is real hunting! As far as baiting is concerned, unless you have trained the deer to eat out of your hand, it doesn't count as baiting. That's right isn't it? ...... No????

Ah yes ...... better living through chemicals .... lol. As hard as we try to buy hunting success, all these products that we are lured into buying will never replace good old basic hunting skills. It seems like everybody I run into these days has only one thing on their minds ...... "how do I buy something that will make hunting easy?". That's what hunting has evolved into .... a race to buy success.

And so even with the exact quote, in your own words placed in front of you, you still twist and squirm trying to run away from it. Well frankly, I don't blame you. It was a pretty goofy thing to say. That's like me saying the only reason you are forced to stillhunt is because you lack the patience of a real hunter. Sounds pretty silly doesn't it? kind of crosses over from "opinion" to a back-handed insult.

I'll tell you what ..... you guys are talking about some pretty darn small targets. How big are the femoral arteries? ........ maybe 1 or 2 times the size of an arrow shaft? Perhaps the exact size of a shotgun slug? How about the size of the opening in the rump which is surrounded by massive bones. Softball size .... maybe? And then some are talking about this as a kill zone on a running deer? Now there is a real challenge. Not just a small area, but one that is bouncing up and down and sideways as well. To me that simply boils down to a "spray and pray" style of hunting. Does it ever work? ...... Sure it does. Is it a high percentage shot? ...... not in my estimation. But maybe with a gun, if you let all 5 shots go as fast as you can, you might get lucky .....

That's archery for you .... lol. It definitely is a sport of details!

But you can and should put a number on your own shot distance and it should be based on all of the variables that deer and bowhunting involves. And that number is not established only by the results at the archery range. I know that some people have a problem assessing the variables when they come up with a personal hunting proficiency range that begins to sound like something that you might consider appropriate for a shotgun ..... lol. Perhaps some are more willing to let "luck" play a bigger part in the results than others are. That's a personal decision too because whether we like to admit it or not, no matter what the distance, there is still some level of luck involved. I guess it's our job to minimize the impact of luck as much as we are able to. I suppose that experience helps add a little realism into those shooting distance assessments. When you have personally encountered deflections and finally recognize just how small an obstruction it takes to send an arrow off target, you begin to examine just what distances you can really see something that tiny. I suppose once you see just how good those relexes of a deer are, it dawns on you that you are not shooting at a stationary bale of hay. Once you have had a down-range wind grab ahold of an arrow, you start to realize that conditions where you are standing doesn't necessarily relate to those between you and the deer. And if you ever have the occasion to work out the math of shot distance versus how far and how fast a deer can move with just a casual step, all these things combine to convince you that bowhunting is indeed a very short range hunting activity.

All of my pics are numbered so that I can easily find them. And I also maintain a database that uses those picture numbers as a reference and notes locations, what is pictured, time of day, direction of where they were heading and a comments column. I'm not sure how all this info will ever be used, but I figured I should capture all the info in case I come up with a practical use for any of it in the future. Otherwise, it just serves as a fancy index....lol.

:lol:

For me (and I stress for me) the traditional range of a bow back in 1965 when I first started was 20 yards and under. That seemed to be the distance where I felt that it would take something extraordinary to make me miss. That was the distance where I could clearly see all obstructions and where I spent most of my time practicing. It was also close enough to negate a lot of what the deer could do to evade the arrow (including casual incidental movement). Not guaranteed, because nothing in any kind of hunting is guaranteed), but a shot where the odds were put very heavily in my favor. Over the years, with the advent of the compound, that range for me increased to around 25 and I feel pretty darned confident out to 30 yards. To this day, I absolutely will not take a shot over 30 yards, and almost always, I will wait until I can get back down to my old favorite ..... 20 yards or less. That distance is very clear to me as being a very high percentage shot which is exactly what I am after. Yes, I can do a pretty respectable job of shooting out to 40 yards, but that applies on the archery range. I guess I was brought into bowhunting at a time when archery was considered a close range sport and that was exactly what drew me to it. That was before all the hype about super fast bows got people believing that their latest $1000 purchase performed almost as good as a gun.....lol. Yes equipment has changed radically but it is still a close range hunting activity and most of the things that would foil a shot 40 years ago still exist today. Deer still move. unseen twigs and limbs still exist. unplanned shooting hick-ups still occur. And the farther the shooting distance the more likely one or more of these things will occur. Considering all of that, even with my super fast, low trajectory, miracle-bow (a bit of sarcasm there), I still feel better about a very short shot that emphasizes the hunting part of bowhunting rather than seeing how far I can shoot which is emphasizing the marksmanship (I put in plenty of time on the archery range to satisfy that itch on my archery range). So, considering all that has been talked about in this thread, that magical distance really wasn't that hard for me to arrive at. I think anyone can easily figure out what's a good max distance for themselves as long as they honestly assess all of the real limitations of bowhunting as we have been discussing in this thread. What really bothers me is when people make that decision based only or mainly on what they can do on the archery range. That is one of the least reliable critera.

I think you're probably right. The politics of outdoor activities is actually a pain in the neck. Not only that but do we really want to get involved in that part of the stuff. You're right .... it is the hunting that we are interested in. It's not the wrestling match that all the political hassle involves that we want to get involved with. It's a lot harder for us to get motivated on that end of things. Not only that, but we look around us and realize that hunting won't be changing much for the remainder of our hunting days, and the next generation will have to live with whatever we leave them. Also, we know that there are some people still politically active and trying to keep the organizations afloat, and so there is no reason for us to spend the money or effort as long as we have other people carrying on the fight for us. When you sit down and think about all of that, it's pretty easy to shoot holes in all of that faulty reasoning and excuse-making, but few of us ever do. And that's why we find ourselves in a fight with nitwits and find the nitwits winning. I don't think it is a situation that will ever change because it is all based on common human nature. I do my little bit in supporting our advocacy organizations, but I have to admit that there is probably a lot more that I should do. Unfortunately, I get a bit discouraged when I see the attitudes of some of the other hunters and I get the feeling that it really is a losing fight in the long-run. It's that feeling that makes me not one bit surprised that there still are states with these kinds of blue-laws regarding hunting. It really is actually what I have come to expect. frankly, I am amazed that we don't still have them.

Skillet- This is a rather strange request. I have heard of trappers asking for places to trap but have never seen that reversed where the landowner was looking for trappers. Do you have some kind of animal control problem that you are trying to get fixed? Do you trap the land yourself? Looking for a trapping partner?

You're welcome. I may not be involved in trapping anymore, but I still have an interest in helping others to get into it. It is an activity that I have always been proud to have participated in, and I would love to see it all prosper with new people.

I think that more and more of the decisions are being taken out of the hands of the DEC and being placed into the hands of legislators. Look at who was pushing for the closing of the pheasant rearing farms. It wasn't the DEC, but rather the Governor (Patterson). The operating budget for the DEC is controlled (and pilfered) by the legislature. Even the Commissioner of the DEC is a political appointment by the Governor. The whole damn organization is purely politically motivated and controlled and really has very little that happens because of science anymore. Even some of the AR WMUs have been mandated by legislators. These encroachments by politicians will never get any better, and in fact I expect that they will get more and more blatant. And the worse the economy gets, the more leverage the politicians get.

They certainly are not. The biggest blame lies with hunters themselves in that we have never really learned how to organize and assert ourselves. And that is not something that is improving as time goes on. The liberals have learned the value of organization. Hunters and other outdoorsmen are still delighting in trying to destroy their organizations with their sniping and constant encouraging of non-participation over nearly irrelevant single issue items. I keep thinking how much differently this thread would look if the animal rights folks treated their advocacy organizations the way we hunters treat ours. The animal rights people would be an irrelevant non-entity that would have no ability to try to block anything. Well, that's kind of the other way around now isn't it? And hunters have only themselves to blame for that.

So, I guess pawle76 answered your request to "Show me where I said that stand hunters are not hunters at all...". So my comment above still stands ....lol.

If I wasn't absolutely perfect with the shot, it makes me cringe to think of one of those nice roasts having hair and stuff shoved through all that clot-filled meat. As far as hitting a femoral, they really don't offer that much of a target either. You probably have a better chance at getting it into the poop-chute. Geez this whole discussion along with that picture is really quite unpleasant ..... lol.

Let's face it ...... they are nothing but goats. They'll eat anything.

I don't think the DEC can afford to man these check stations anyways. Most likely that is why finding any kind of check station today is pretty darn rare. I think if they made that part of the mandatoy reporting system, nobody would comply with that either because they would be so few and far between.

I wonder why the DEC doesn't re-implement the party concept in some of these areas where they have totally cut off the permits. Remember the days when some places had to have 4 or 5 guys to a permit. Yes it was a pain in the butt, but I would think that in these few WMUs where permits have been eliminated it would be better to share a permit with others than to simply have year after year of no chance at all. Yeah I know, who could afford the software changes to the DECALS computers for just those few WMUs ......

growalot- Why don't you do a super-test for us of some of these scent-killer products on that billy-goat of yours. If it works there, it would work anywhere. .....Good idea ....eh?

And yet another good point. I have noticed how a branch or a twig that shows up good in full daylight starts losing definition as the light fades toward sunset. Sometimes we think we have a good clear shooting lane. But lower the light a bit and try to spot every little twig and branch at 50 or 60 yards or more.

I've had only one time when rattling almost worked for me. I was in a bit of a thick area and just caught sight of the rear end of a buck exiting the area after he snuck in within 40 yards of me and got my wind (or saw me, I'm not sure which). After a whole lot of other attempts, I decided that my time in the woods would be better spent just being quiet rather than making a whole bunch of noise with rattling horns. I'm probably due to try it again just to see if I can get lucky. I do still hear some occasional stories of where the tactic has worked for some. And of course it is a regular theme of a lot of deer hunting shows on TV.

By golly, this forum seems to attract some super talented photo artists. I just love looking at some of the pictures that you guys are posting here. Congratulations on being so damned good at what you do!

Actually, I have made a lot of long shots. I used to shoot NFAA field archery and one of the targets was at 80 yards. There were also shots past 50 yards and they were great fun. I still like to shoot long distances at targets on an archery range. So I do understand what capabilities people can have at long distances with a bow on an archery range at a stationery target. That really has nothing to do with hunting conditions and live animals that have the capability of moving at any minute. But, you are right. The distance that a person wishes to shoot is completely up to them. And the consequences that may or may not result are completely on them. And I am assuming that bad results will actually bother them so they are supposedly motivated to make good choices. But every time this discussion comes up, all I hear is what people can do at the archery range like that's the only consideration. Frankly that's not the only consideration and its not even the most important consideration (in my opinion). But all I can do is to bring up the points against super long shots as I see them and after that, as you say, the final decision is really up to them.

Here is a DEC webpage that lists phone numbers for information on all kinds of required classes. http://www.dec.ny.go...tdoor/9188.html Also, there is a page that gives county reps from the NYS trappers association. They may be able to supply answers to any other kinds of questions you may have. Perhaps you may even want to join. I did notice that there are some counties that don't have any reps yet, so you may have to use which ever one is available and close. http://www.nystrappers.org/county_reps.html