Doc

I can't continue to respond to the same repetitive flawed logic. Sorry, but paranoia is just not my thing. I know..... it's not actually paranoia if everyone really is out to get you .....lol. Doc

Link to the D&C article on the latest trestand death: http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20101123/NEWS01/101123001/Hunter-found-dead-after-fall-in-Orleans-County&referrer=NEWSFRONTCAROUSEL The local area count of treestand accidents is up to 4 now. The one guy (Rogers) is still being reported as being in guarded condition. I don't really know exactly what that means, but it doesn't sound too good. I'm not sure what's going on in other parts of the state, but here in our little chunk of western NY, we aren't really doing all that great. Doc

Wow!!! That's some pretty prompt reporting on the DEC's part. I don't recall any harvest comments made this early in the season in past years. The reporting dates that they are talking about ended just yesterday. Doc

Deer make all kinds of vocalizations. Some of them are so rare that we don't see anyone talking about them very much. Just a week or two ago, Michael Waddell showed a clip of a buck making a weird noise that he claimed was something he had never heard before. it was something I had never heard from a deer either.

Lol .... I often have the same suspicion, but I do realize that typically hunters drag out their rifles (shotguns, pistols) and do a bit of last minute sighting in or checking out the accuracy of their weapons. You do have to wonder about some of those single shots in the middle of the woods. I generally give the benefit of a doubt since small game season is still open .........but you never know.

I'm just saying that you made a stupid assumption that those that you were referring to when you said "you guys", shoot the first deer that comes along. That comment was based on absolutely nothing. I haven't got a clue where you got that from and clearly you don't either. I don't understand why you think you have to make stuff up like that just to make your point and I figured it was time somebody called you on it. Such baseless assumptions or purposeful mis-statements simply reflect on your credibility.

And yet more treestand falls: In the Canandaigua Messenger 11/19/10 - A canadice man, Richard Vinson, 56, fell from his treestand while bowhunting and was airlifted to Strong Memorial Hospital where he was listed in guarded condition. He fell from a height of 12 to 15 feet. In the Canandaigua Messenger 11/22/10 - A Penfield man, Thomas J. Rogers, 63, was listed in guarded condition after falling from a treestand in Naples, Ontario County. The fall was about 12 feet. He was taken to Strong Memorial Hospital via Mercy Flight. These two coupled with the recent death of Eric Docteur from a treestand fall in Bristol is starting to form a pattern of some pretty ugly statistics here locally and are only incidents that are reported in one small area of the state. It makes me wonder what the total picture across the state really looks like. I think these treestand incidents are one of the more under-reported hunting mishaps with often disastrous consequences. I'm afraid that by next hunting season, all this talk about death and serious injuries from treestand falls will be lost to memories and another round of the same kinds of incidents will most likely end or impair hunting for a significant number of our hunting community. For those that don't own the proper treestand safety equipment, it sure would be great, if those who hunt in tree-stands were to go out and buy the necessary harnessing to help ensure safety now before the memories of these tragic events fade. Harness systems might make a good Christmas present request this year. Also, I would guess that this is not something that you want to buy from the lowest bidder .... lol. Looks like it is something that might be worth a bit of research and a few extra dollars if necessary to ensure maximum safety and ease of use. Doc

Geez .... I hope you're alright. I don't really want to be killing anybody..... But I do understand how a guy could get hurt scrambling away from his own quote like you just did. ;D

I assume you already have the equipment needed to do this and the transportation vehicles required to take equipment to customer sites. It looks like you did a dandy job on your own plot, so apparently you do have the skills. Is there a market for such a service? ....... I have to believe that there is. It all depends on whether you can keep the costs controlled to make your offer tempting to a landowner. I can only imagine the different scenarios that potential customers might throw at you. Remote locations, some land clearing, perhaps land that has never been tilled before, that might be full of rocks and downed trees, etc. I think it might be a pretty interesting, challenging and potentially financially rewarding side-line. Doc

I love both seasons. Yes bow season is my preferred way of hunting, but my old shotgun is yet another way to experience hunting and to celebrate the old traditions and maybe occasionally set things straight between me and a couple of deer that formerly enjoyed rubbing my nose in the shortcomings of my bow. ;D Doc

These kinds of fatalities are always so hard on the survivors. But if it is of any comfort, it should be noted that he went doing what was a central part of his life. We don't choose the time and place of our departure, but if I could, I would ask to go during a hunt rather than many of the other ways to go. Doc

Actually, you don't know who you were referring to since you don't have a clue who on here passes up what, do you? I guess when you were talking about "the same as you guys.. shot the first deer that came by me", you were imagining something about somebody ..... eh?

The point is that a trophy is not measured in inches. There are a lot of factors that make it a trophy to an individual. For some people any deer taken fairly and legally is a trophy and it's not really up to anyone like you to be determining what should be a trophy for other people.

Thanks for the congratulations. That was my 1st bow kill and I have the antlers plaque-mounted right over the fireplace.

Which is kind of a slick way of saying you really don't know .

I kind of wonder if this Saturday opener thing is really working. I thought it was a great idea (I was a working stiff with vacation schedule problems once too), but now I'm beginning to wonder. Maybe they shouldn't have messed with it. In our area, I would be hard pressed to put the total blame on any one thing because over the years the change has been so dramatic. But it does seem like the Saturday opener has not had a significant positive force in making participation any better and perhaps it has even hurt things a bit. Doc

So, is there anyone who actually knows and cares to explain the actual criteria (be they physiological and/or otherwise) that describes what makes a deer "mature"? Doc

First of all, I noted the first shot of the day to be 6:40 am. There is no way that that is anything close to safe, legal or responsible shooting. I noticed on a few other threads that some heard shots even earlier than that...... Not Good!!! Second, I noticed that this year like other recent years, the shooting was fairly normal during the first hour of the season and then tailed off dramatically during the second hour and really got sparce after that. Further, all shooting that was occuring was on private land and even though the state land that I hunt is full of deer, it was absolutely silent. Also, my wife checked out the state parking lot yesterday morning and said that there were only a few cars parked there. Now, I remember a decade or four ago when opening day (same area) was almost non-stop shooting throughout the day. Also, you almost had to get on stand extra early in the dark just to reserve your favorite spot because there were so many hunters there. I also remember state parking lots being full with cars running down both sides of the road for a ways (opening day, first Saturday and Thanksgiving). I also remember driveways down through the valley being clogged with cars of friends and relatives hunting the hills down here. And of course I remember deer hanging in yards, and strapped to fenders of cars, etc. Lately, it is unusual to see a harvested deer anywhere. These are kind of major changes. Here's another observation. I just finished hunting today and for being a weekend day, it sure was pretty darn quiet. There were a few sporadic shots fired here and there, but for being the second day of the season and a "freebie" as far as not having any interference from work duties, it just didn't seem like anything special. So the question: Is this just a local phenomenon or are there others around the state who are observing the same kinds of things. I know the number of hunters is heading for the dumper, but what I am seeing goes way beyond that. It looks like actual participation is down much more than a simple slow decline in license sales. Doc

Ok, I have been playing with only two cameras, and only the past few months so you can factor that anemic level of experience into the credibility of my comments. However, I have noticed that when one buck shows up, several others start showing up about the same time. Also, I have gaps in excess of a week when no bucks show up (for no apparent reason). Also, I have a lot of single-visit bucks that just seem to pop in from nowhere and disappear just as quickly. Also I have a picture of a nice buck with just one 4-point antler (theoretically should have been an 8-point) that showed up one night. I believe it to be the same deer that my nephew shot part way up the hill on the other side of the valley, in excess of a 1/2 mile away. His description sounds like the same animal and when we have our family Thanksgiving get together, I will verify that. My tentative conclusion is that this time of the year, bucks travel great distances and those that show up on trail-cams most likely will not be hanging around for hunting season. While they are nice to see, there probably is no reason to get too hopeful about seeing them again during hunting season. This also makes me begin to wonder how many of these scrape lines, and clusters of rubs are simply one or two night stands that may or may not ever be re-visited in the future by the same buck that made them. I am seriously wondering if these bucks really have any special areas that they spend a whole lot of time at once the rut kicks in or whether they are simply running around from one cluster of does to another. So, what do you all think? Any observations that back up or disagree with those observations and conclusions? Doc

Like... Like .... some kind of over-weight, multi-pointed, grizzly-buck. That along with every other aspect of the season being perfect might rank up to a ten. I wouldn't expect too many "tens" in a lifetime. And I sure never want to the other extreme experience (a zero or a one) .... lol.

It just doesn't get any better than that! Your daughter actually had a part in the hunt. Great idea!!! Doc

For me, a season has to be a bit special for a 10 rating. A ten would definitely have to include a harvest (after all that is the object of me carrying a bow instead of a camera). In fact a ten indicates a perfect season that just doesn't get any better ..... that would require a special kind of deer ..... . Doc

I hunt from the ground. I have no choice since I have a pretty severe case of fear of heights (vertigo is what they call it I think). My opinion is that I am definitely hunting with an additional handicap. Yes, I have done well for myself and have fine tuned the art of ground-standing as good as I can and have been doing my hunting that way exclusively for a few decades. However, I am not going to try to fool anybody that ground-standing is as effective as tree-stand hunting (I'm speaking here purely about bow hunting). Scent detection is a magnified problem. That's not to say that scent from elevated positions is not a concern, but scent tends to stay together better and in a tighter plume at ground level and does not disperse as well as scent released overhead. Scent is not as much of a problem when gun hunting because you are not working with a short range limitation. For bowhunting, movement is also a serious problem for the ground-stander. You really have to manage that problem because when you are working on the same level as deer, they really don't miss much. Trying to draw that bow at eye level without the deer catching that movement is a trick and requires some real good use of cover (even in a pop-up) Ground blind construction is also something that requires a whole lot of finesse in order to not disturb deer patterns or draw attention with something foriegn in their livingroom. That's not always a problem, but I have seen cases where it was. Yeah, things are a bit harder from the ground. However, when you can no longer be comfortable up in a treestand, or as in my case, simply cannot even get into one, you do what you have to do. You will find that you are not in as much of a minority as TV and magazines make you think. What I have found is that the excitement factor has increased tremendously. Looking your prey in the eye on their level certainly makes the heart beat a bit faster especially on those occasions where they are almost in reach out and touch them. Groundstanding also adds a bit more challenge and therefore a bit more satisfaction. To me that's what bowhunting is all about ....lol. I also remember how the size and shape of a tree drove decisions as far as stand location. That doesn't always work out to be the best reason for where you set up your ambush. In general, I believe that groundstands have quite a bit more flexibility in terms of location. So, it's not all bad news that you have to move to ground hunting. Generally I construct my ground blinds way in advance and have plenty of them. I have just started to experiment with pop-up ground blinds and really am a novice at their use. I think they have a lot of potential and I'll be working with them a lot more in coming seasons. I will say that I have discovered a few shortcomings (usually learned the hard way .... lol). Anyway, good luck on the beginning of a whole new way of hunting. I think you will eventually get to the point where you won't miss the treestands at all. Doc

So for you, a mature deer has a range of age (3-1/2 to 4-1/2). If someone says they only shoot mature deer, you consider they are talking about a deer that is between 3.5 and 4.5 and on up. I have never really read a discussion on what features or traits actually define a "mature" deer and yet I hear the term used all the time. I might have assumed that maturity might be linked to a point where the average deer stops growing, or maybe a point where certain aspects of it's physical condition begin to deteriorate in certain key ways. The actual criteria for that term still escapes me.

That wind was a good test for your hunting gear efficiency. Even in the 40's, the wind has a way of stripping the heat right out of you. For the most part I stayed fairly comfortable. I got my doe fairly late in the morning (11:00) so I had quite a few hours to test out my Under Armor and my new shiny orange hunting coat. I would say they both passed the test. Speaking of wind, I found it interesting what happens to a west wind when it slams into a west facing hill. I had a north-south-east-west wind direction. All directions with the same duration and intensity. How that group of does got within 40 yards without catching my wind is a complete mystery. At any rate, we missed all precipitation, and I am thankful for that. I would rank the weather for this opener as "fair" for this year. I certainly have seen much, much worse. Doc