Doc

That's funny because that is exactly what happened to me the other day when I went down to put away my pop-up blind. As I walked up to the site, I was amazed to see it missing from the spot where it was supposed to be tucked into the pines. I couldn't believe it. But when I finally got to the spot and stood there looking around in disbelief, I spotted it deeper into the pines. What a relief! How the heck it ever was able to work its way through those pines is something I will never understand. Those pines are super-thick. Anyway, it all came out with a happy ending. Doc

And a trigger - for both. yup...kinda just like our trigger releases on our compounds...lol Well, I'm not going to get into a repetition of all thirty some pages of this thread where the differences between crossbows and compounds has been thoroughly and accurately pointed out. Also, none of that has anything to do with the narrow subject of the post that I have been taking WNYBowhunter to task on. Just to review for those that apparently haven't really been following, I am not in favor of an argument that says that because there are some archers who do not take time to practice with their bows we are justified in adding in more weapons in bowseason that are not as demanding. There is nothing in that argument that ends with just a crossbow. Doc

Well then I guess all that drivel about allowing the substitution a more efficient weapon for those that don't devote required time to their bows for practice was just meaningless garbage that you really don't believe in. Or maybe it is just a worthless argument that only goes as far as your fanatical promotion of crossbows in bow seasons. I suspect both are true and that was exactly the point that I was getting at.

I know you can't shoot across the road, but is there a legal limit as to how far off the road you have to be when you shoot? Do you have to be off the public highway right-of-way and onto private land? I never shot that close to a road to have to worry about it, but now that the discussion has come up, I'm curious. Doc

When you talk about massive permanent environmental damage, usually if there is solid documentation, you don't even have to worry about having an opinion. Such threats that are backed up by science are generally legally squashed right away these days by the government. Lets face it, when it comes to new introduced harmful environmental issues legislators do not usually sit along the sidelines on such things. So what is it that we are not hearing about this issue? Where is the other side of this issue?

Let's try this. Finding a dead deer in the woods is like finding roadkill on the side of the road. In order to possess it you must have a permit signed by some LEO. That's right isn't it? So why wouldn't the same thing apply if you are trying to remove some portion of a "found" deer from the woods? Seems reasonable. Sounds like we have another topic for legal advice. We need a member on this forum that's a conservation officer or a judge ..... lol. Doc

The only place I ever see any doves is out back at the bird feeder. Where would you go to hunt them? Doc

;D That's hard to argue with.

But could you get in trouble if you had the rack and no paperwork? Interesting question. I guess it would be the same as if you sawed the antlers off a roadkilled buck without any permits. Is that legal? Doc

I really don't understand the actual effects of "fracking". Wouldn't you think that if there was a real danger to the process, opponents would be laying out reports of damage that was done by that kind of gas drilling. It is a practice that's been used elsewhere right? I see the opposition as being based on theory and emotion instead of science. That's not to say that they aren't right. I am only saying that they have not proven their case. Maybe I missed it. I don't have a lot of background on the subject. I'm kind of glad you brought it up. maybe somebody has some info on it that would be useful in forming an opinion. Doc

Let me try it for a third time. And this time I will try to use your exact words since you seem to be trying to forget them already: "Id rather see those guys that dont have time to practice with a vertical bow, pick up a crossbow and have the ability to make an accurate shot on a deer rather than injure a deer due to lack of practice." Please point out any references to archery equipment in that post. You don't seem to see how easily the word gun could be substituted for crossbow. The fact is that same line of reasoning would apply whether you were trying to cram a crossbow or a muzzleloader or a shotgun or a rifle into the bowseason. And just because you now come back and say "oh no I only meant crossbows" doesn't change the way that same line of logic could be expanded to include almost any weapon. See, when someone lays out a statement like that, I tend to hold them to the letter of their words. I don't want to hear any of this attempted fancy footwork afterwards about what is archery equipment and blah ... blah. If you think that deer hunting weapons should be changed to minimize the need for practice, fine. Just say so. But don't complain when someone points out that your comments really can go way beyond what you claim they meant.

What's that saying? ..... the definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over and expecting different results (or something like that). I agree. anyone who thinks there is only one way to hunt, doesn't really understand hunting. After the initial shock to the deer herd when they have gone into the invisible mode, I get this cartoonish type thought of a hunter dozing in his tree stand and 100 yards over in the bushes just out of sight is a deer dozing also throughout the entire day. Neither one of them knowing the other is there. Not really too productive for the hunter. Doc

I think a lot has changed over the years in terms of warm clothing that allows people to sit like a lump for hours in the cold. They have also been conditioned by TV and magazines to believe that it takes a treestand to consistantly kill a deer. To me that isn't a great formula to having a lot of deer movement. Even when I'm stillhunting, I like to see deer on their feet. And sitting hunters will not make that happen. However, I am not one to downplay the sitting style of hunting. I firmly believe it is the wise hunter that knows how and when to use all the tactics. You want to walk.....walk. You want to sit ..... sit. Whatever works for you, that's what you should do. And I don't consider either technique to be the only real true hunting. They are both valid deer hunting techniques. One stresses patience and will-power, the other stresses stealth. Given the right circumstances either one will produce deer. And to stray even farther off topic ..... lol, I will say that back in the late 50's when I first started, it didn't take guys very long in the morning before they started walking (they had to ... lol), and we all made a much smaller herd seem like there were deer everywhere by keeping them moving all day long. That's why a lot of us can remember the very active and exciting deer hunting of years ago. We didn't have more deer, we just saw more deer. Doc

Sounds like changing a string has entered the category of something you might want to call around for and do a bit of comparison pricing. Back in the "olden days" , I used to make my own strings and change them myself. It was all a pretty simple thing to do and cost pretty close to nothing. Today the strings are way longer than my string-jig can accomodate, and you need a bow press to put them on. Doc

I have mixed feelings about proficiency testing. There may actually be some value in it if only to prove that at one point in time, the licensed bowhunter (or gun hunter) had some skills. However, unless you make it a periodic test and re-test, I'm not sure just what it shows about a hunter's current skills. The other thing that makes me a bit skeptical is the fact (ok, my personal suspicion) that wounding losses occur more from poor shot selection than marksmanship. How do you test for a particular judgement call that will occur sometime in the future under the excitement of an actual hunting condition? Basically, marksmanship also is impacted differently in target situations vs. hunting conditions. Of course, we all know the guy who is a tournament ace, and can perform all kinds of amazing target feats but who also has a long record of misses and wounds. I might also add that I have seen some others that can't hit a target no matter what size or distance, but are deadly on wild game. This is a trait with some (many?) instinctive traditional bowhunters. Proficiency testing is not a concept that I would throw out without a whole lot of discussion and thought, but I do believe that there are many more different issues involved than come to mind at first glance. Just a parting thought to keep in mind: All those flaming idiots that you encounter (and try to avoid) daily on the road passed a fairly rigorous driving proficiency test ..... Doc

And a gun would be higher yet .... eh? Look, I'm not trying to put any twist on anything. I'm only interpreting your remarks the way any reasonable person would have to. There is nothing about that prior comment that you made (or this response either for that matter) that doesn't pertain to guns even more-so than crossbows. So either you believe in what you are saying or you don't. Which is it? Do you believe in it just a "little bit" but only up to the inclusion of crossbows? I think everybody understood back when bowhunting was first legalized that adding challenge to a deer season by using primitive equipment had some risks of wounding losses. That risk still exists today. If we want to eliminate the risk, we must eliminate the special season and the weapons in it. Your idea of including more and more technologically advanced weapons until you no longer have to see "deer run through the woods with an arrow hanging out of its back or hindquarter" can only lead to one end. That end is a goal shared by others ever since the bow season was created. You can't expect to raise that point and not have someone point out that you have conveniently but artificially stopped short in your argument. Doc

Whoa there buddy ..... calm down. There's only one thing you are convincing others of, and it doesn't have anything to do with AR.....lol.

Do you have any idea where that line of reasoning could lead us? What are you saying, that because there are hunters that do not take the time to become proficient with their hunting weapon that we should keep adding various weapons into bow season until they finally find one that can be shot without practice? Look if you really believe in that then what is the point of having a bow season at all. Just make guns the only legal deer harvesting implement. That's about as close to a "point and shoot" weapon that you can get.

Lol ..... I've heard of that problem too. Spotlights sweeping across the bedroom walls : . Not exactly something a homeowner should have to put up with eh?

Ah yes.... the good ol' N-S-E-W wind. I know it well. I hunt in hill country with lots of deep ravines and uneven formations. The wind never seems to know exactly which way to blow other than on my back. I can walk a complete huge circle and have the wind directly on my back all the way. At least I know that in one direction, the weatherman will have gotten it right. Opening day I sat on a west face of a hill with a predicted west wind. so the wind should have been blowing uphill, and not to any deer being moved up the hill. .....Yeah, right. I spent the morning watching the wind take turns blowing up, down, and sideways, never really showing any preference. The same gust would blow in one direction and then without even slowing down or hesitating whip right around 180 degrees and blow the exact opposite. Doc

Yup, but when that point in time is after legal shooting hours, that doesn't do you much good....

Yeah I just noticed that. In that case, that's some pretty darn slow reporting ...... . ;D

Probably nearly unheard-of. I would guess that most of the bears taken are strictly a result of an accidental encounter.

That's too bad ...... Another year and that deer would have been mature and ready to harvest. Just another victim of the "brown & downers"

I'm tagged out, or I would be in the same dillemma as you. I don't like being cold, and I have never tried to turn hunting into a physical endurance contest. The older I get the more I think that way. However, there are things today that can help with the comfort aspect of hunting. With the wind being a major problem, a pop-up blind comes to mind (heater not out of the question). The other good thing is that unlike bow season, you are not limited as to how much clothing you can pile on. As long as you can bend your arms enough to shoulder the gun, you can shoot. No follow-through, no anchor, no arm alignment, no grip consistancy, no back tension, or any of that other hogwash that bowhunting requires.... lol. Just pick up the gun and shoot and that you can do no matter how much clothing you have on. heck you can crawl inside a sleeping bag and do that .... ;D . Take along a good portable radio for entertainment (nothing to hear anyway with the wind and the snow hiding all sound). What the hell.....have a party! Some stupid deer just might wander by. No, seriously, I hear exactly what you are saying. After weeks of hunting (bow and gun), and then gun season finally sliding into that inevitable dead quiet time, the frustration level gets to be serious and it really gets you wondering why you should subject yourself to ridiculous discomfort when you are pretty well convinced that it will all be for nothing. I've been there. And I have cut a lot of seasons a bit short when that happens. I wish I could tell you about the times when I've just sucked it up and went out and was rewarded by some huge mega-buck .... But unfortunately as you might have guessed, that has never happened and would be one whopper of a lie ....lol. Look, hunting is recreation. It's supposed to be fun. You have to do whatever keeps the activity satisfying those two things. There is no reason to be beating yourself up or feeling guilty if you have put in a good hard effort during the season and now decide enough is enough. There's nothing wrong with ending the season when you want to end it instead of waiting for someone to tell you to end it. Doc