Doc

Law enforcement loves those gray areas ......

Lol ..... Yes you have a gold mine there ;D

It's pretty hard to buy into DEC numbers when you look at the fact that none of it is ever verified with anything other than more statistical hokus-pokus, but in all fairness, the DEC is stuck with the realities and practicalities of budgets which by the way continue to shrink at alarming rates. Hard counts, aerial surveys and such are simply out of the question. I suspect that they are doing the absolute best with the resources they have. Even their black-art of statistical analysis in herd management is likely to suffer even more with the latest demand for even more cuts in personel and other resources essential to doing their job. We had a Commissioner get canned because he felt compelled to protest the cuts and pointed out that they would no longer be able to do their job (and those are about the kindest words I have ever said about Grannis). I'm not sure just what further the DEC can do beyond offering up their necks on the chopping block. So anyone who wants to place blame or lay down some pressure on someone, should be looking at the state politicians. It appears that they are strangling the DEC. And by the way, this probably is not the best time to be demanding any new fad management schemes. Even though everybody thinks that such changes come with no costs ...... They don't! Doc

Tomorrow's the day in our area according to the weather forecast. Finally, those critters will become visible. Also the tracks will tell the real story about the deer that we are thinking don't exist. Maybe a little more wind than I would like, but what the heck, you can't have everything. Doc

There is a very in-depth NYS study going on that has been in progress for a few years. Check it out. There is some real good scientific info aimed at answering a lot of the questions we have about coyote/deer interactions. http://www.esf.edu/efb/frair/coyote/coyote_main.htm Doc

The one thing that we can not be expecting is that all localities will ever be managed properly. Across any WMU, the antlerless tag numbers issued, and the population density estimates are at best based on an average of past statistical results across the entire WMU. That means that likely some parcels within that WMU will have ridiculously high population densities and others will have actual deer scarcity, and the average looks great. The same WMU can have complaints of too many deer as well as complaints of too few deer and they all could be right. You can have deer numbers in a WMU that look wonderful for any particular WMU, but instead are comprised of local parcels that are absolutely wrong in both extremes. Such is the problem with a state agency trying to regulate populations on various lands that have all different levels of hunting pressures and habitats. It's a poor situation, but is the best that anyone can expect unless they are able to take on micro-managing of their own land, which I believe actually happens on only a tiny, miniscule, number of hunting parcels across the state. That's why hunter observations are not useful in state management. The hunters may be (and probably are) absolutely correct in what they see and comment about, but they are only looking at a few acres of the whole WMU. If they were to hunt elsewhere in that same WMU, they might very well have an entire different assessment of deer populations. Doc

Every year lately, it gets quieter and quieter (both the opener and the other major deer hunting days). This Thanksgiving was ridiculous. Thanksgiving morning used to be one of the more active deer hunting days. A lot of guys would just start the day with huge drives, and deer would be running everywhere. This year I heard a total of three shots all morning. I don't know what to make of it, but in my hunting area, it sure isn't a lack of deer. Doc

So there you have it. Anyone who expects the gunners to quietly sit by and have their season hacked on can read some of these replies and start getting just an inkling of the firestorm that would result ..... lol.

I'm not sure just where deer rank on a scale of intelligence. I suspect they are probably on the same level as a goat. We used to have a couple of goats. They watched me go in and out of a gate to their pasture. I had a hook up about chest high that kept the gate closed and locked. One day I looked back and saw one of the goats with her front feet up on the gate, picking away at the hook with its mouth. I remember thinking that that took quite a bit of observation, and interpretation and actual logic on their part to figure out that the hook was what was actually keeping them in there. That's pretty darn smart for an animal. So is a deer as smart as a goat? ....... maybe .... probably. They may very well have the ability to figure some things out that we don't give them credit for.

Well, at least that's the way I and a some others view hunting ..... a fun and enjoyable experience ...... recreation. I know some people go at it like it's their livelihood or some measure of their worth. They seem to lose all perspective .... at least in my view they do. I guess each person has to get out of hunting whatever they need to get.

Lol..... sounds more like the sound of you not thinking.

I assume from the title and content of this topic that ARs are involved in this discussion a little bit. I'm pretty sure that's what we have been discussing.

I think that one part of that sentence is the main reason why NYS will never see a cut in gun season length. Somebody has to do the job of controlling deer population. We bowhunters are not going to get that job done. Our efficiency just doesn't rank up there with gun hunters. If you pay real close attention you will see that the DEC has been championing moves that increase doe harvests. They are not interested in ideas that limit doe harvests. So even if we could all somehow agree that a shorter gun season is a good thing, getting anyone with any authority to even listen to such a proposal seems like an impossibility. I suspect that we will see just the opposite as it is far more likely that we will see incursions into bow seasons of various kinds of firearms and other types of higher efficiency weapons. Another aspect to consider is that there also is a bit of a combat setting when we start proposing that seasons be re-adjusted to further favor bowhunters while at the same time suggesting that gun-hunters get stiffed. If ever it comes down to a battle between the gun hunters and the bowhunters, I'll let you all guess just who the winner of that would be. And I think I can guess which side the DEC and politicians would be on. That's a fight I don't ever want to see started. Doc

I'm thinking that there are a lot of hunters just waiting to be pushed over the edge. I think that's what's behind all this lack of enthusiasm in the hunting crowd today. These half day hunters are trying to tell us something. I think the normal reaction to a severe cut in gun season length would be "Well check it out. They're screwing us again". It doesn't matter if they are really using the days or not. The perception would be that they are once again being taken advantage of. Especially in light of the license fee increases and the new fee on permits. Pay more for less ...... a good recipe for fewer customers. It doesn't work well in retail outlets, and I wouldn't expect hunters to be any more accepting of such tactics. Look, nobody can say with any certainty just how hunters would react to such a change. We can guess and try to apply a certain level of logic, but it is foolish for anyone to pretend that they know exactly what would happen. I guess my feeling is why take a chance. The benefits are theoretical at best, but the steady decline of hunters is now a numerical certainty. I'm not for anything that even has the potential of accelerating the diminishing our ranks further. It just doesn't seem like something we should be playing around with. Doc

I have seen that same thing three times on state land. In two of the cases, they were complete with face paint. The only thing that runs through my mind when I see this is that here are some individuals intent on "suicide by hunter".

bart- I'm just guessing, but I suspect if you hunted in areas where a yearling buck is about the best that you can hope to see, coupled with an area that offers few or no antlerless permits, you might see it a bit differently. At any rate, whether that would really change your thinking or not, it's always a good thing to understand that not everyone hunts in areas that offer the choices that you or I obviously have.

Just a word about tax credits. There is nothing magical about tax credits that differentiate them from simply doling out cash. In NY's current financial condition and that of the countys and towns, I don't think anyone will be too happy about a proposal to curtail any source of revenue. Yes, they do offer tax abatement programs to attract and hold businesses (a real questionable tactic) but I'm afraid that landowners really do not hire new employees or offer anything that would allow the state to recoup their expenditure. As far as hacking on the gun season, it might be interesting to see just what that would cost the state in terms of license sales and declining hunter numbers. Gun hunters are the bread and butter of the DEC incomes. I sincerely doubt that it would be a smart financial move to be beating up the majority of hunters at a point where hunter numbers are declining. Such a move had better have some real credible benefits that are easily demonstrated and very convincing to the gun-hunters. I think it would be a very tough-sell. As far as DMAPs being available to farmers who totally lock up their land from hunters, I have always wondered why the DEC allows that. I have a feeling that the issue might be a bit more complicated than it first appears. I'm thinking that there may be some legal implications to the way that program is handled. I would like to have that explained to me someday.

That has been my position on AR right along. In the greater scheme of things, I believe that AR sits real low on my wish-list of priorities for the DEC. I think we need to be a bit more concerned about getting basic wildlife management correct before we ask the DEC to go charging off chasing every new fad management scheme. And now as you just pointed out, our priorities should include a new threat which impacts the very existance and function of the DEC. And we're sitting here worrying about AR. I believe that as long as we are sidelined with trivial issues like AR, we are not organized for the real issues of game management. I'm not too sure just where we expect the resources to come from for research and implementation of new management methods, but if they ever do come up with some scraps of resources, AR is probably not the thing I would like to see them squander it on.

I hunt some places that are so tight that I have to be constantly at the ready because when deer come in, they can be in and out of the shooting lanes before I ever even get a chance to pick up my bow. In some spots, brush is so tight that I have been forced to cut "vision lanes" just to get some warning. It gets tough just staring at those two sighting lanes for hours. So, the visibility thing is another good reason for treestands. Things always go a lot smoother when you have advance notice that a deer is coming and have a chance to prepare. Like I said earlier, I do believe I am working at a distinct dis-advantage for several reasons when hunting from the ground. However, I simply have no choice. That's not a real complaint since I do seriously believe that my hunting has gotten a whole lot more exciting once I got out of the trees. So each hunting system has its benefits and drawbacks. Vision is just another factor.

Right now, over 40 states have some form of B/O law. So far I have not heard of any sportsmen's clubs or national hunting organizations complaining about how their civil rights are being violated or how armed insurrection may be required to get rid of these oppressive laws in order to keep their tentacles of human rights violations from further creeping into the lives of hunters. How can that be with B/O laws being the scourge of the hunting community. It is good to have an active imagination, but it's also important to be able to maintain a grip on reality. No, the sky will not fall with a B/O law. If people want to stretch laws to harrass hunters, they can do that with or without a B/O law. We have to be watchful that they don't do that right now and that would be true even after a B/O law. But that doesn't mean that all safety laws have to be repealed and no future ones ever proposed.

Gotta love those neck shots. Good press for the bowhunters ..... eh?

I can't continue to respond to the same repetitive flawed logic. Sorry, but paranoia is just not my thing. I know..... it's not actually paranoia if everyone really is out to get you .....lol. Doc

Link to the D&C article on the latest trestand death: http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20101123/NEWS01/101123001/Hunter-found-dead-after-fall-in-Orleans-County&referrer=NEWSFRONTCAROUSEL The local area count of treestand accidents is up to 4 now. The one guy (Rogers) is still being reported as being in guarded condition. I don't really know exactly what that means, but it doesn't sound too good. I'm not sure what's going on in other parts of the state, but here in our little chunk of western NY, we aren't really doing all that great. Doc

Wow!!! That's some pretty prompt reporting on the DEC's part. I don't recall any harvest comments made this early in the season in past years. The reporting dates that they are talking about ended just yesterday. Doc

Deer make all kinds of vocalizations. Some of them are so rare that we don't see anyone talking about them very much. Just a week or two ago, Michael Waddell showed a clip of a buck making a weird noise that he claimed was something he had never heard before. it was something I had never heard from a deer either.