nyslowhand

You'll love a Xbow. Just don't get caught up in all the hype & bragging about 60-80yrd shots. Once you shoot one at 50+yrds you'll see why. Last I knew, Hawke set the standard for Xbow scopes. Worth a look!?! Oh yeah, you won't be sorry if you invest in a decent sling. Damned things are pretty cumbersome to carry around like a shotgun or rifle.

Those "mom & pop" local archery shops are where you'll get the most knowledgeable help. But..not always the best selection or pricing. Personalized service and convenience comes at a price! Much better selection of a variety of compound/Xbow mfgers and models at the "big box" places like BassPro, Dick's, Gander Mtn. But...rarely will the sales people have much knowledge of archery. Not sure where you're located within Wayne Co? Belo was referring to Guerin-Teed Archery on Rte21 between Williamson & Palmyra. Archery Solutions is near Williamson, just north of Rte104, They were open, then closed and assumed now open again...call first! Another place on Rte96 between Manchester & the Finger Lakes Race Track, Jim's Pro Shop. Believe there's another one south of Phelps, Heritage (??). Sure there are others in eastern Wayne Co. Most of these smaller shops are owned by individuals who have a real, wage earning, weekday job, So..nights & weekends are your best bet to get to talk to the owners, the real experts. This goes w/o saying, but I will anyways......If you're thinking about pursuing bow hunting, do NOT jump in whole-hog, but merely ease into it. Go to a small archery shop, act like your interested in buying a new bow, get sized for draw length, try out a few bows for draw weight, shoot several times and walk out. Do your due diligence research and then look around for a decent used bow that is to your specs. Can often get a complete used package with bow, sights, quiver, release, arrows, case. etc for under $500. Bewarned - Some bow models require more than minor adjustments to bring them to your specs!! Jumping in whole-hog with a new bow & accessories will easily cost 2-3X that used $. Most bow hunters can't resist the urge to upgrade to the latest & greatest technology about every 3-5yrs. So the old bow gets sold, which by the way generally has nothing wrong with it! There's no Kelly Blue Book for used bows, so some will be over-priced and others at a bargain.

Welcome to 315'er territory Good luck this year!!

Can't speak directly about the Vengeance Xbow. In my experience, the key to using the rope cocking method is to have rope short enough so that when you're standing erect, w/arms extended, you can just reach the handles on the rope. Xbow should be cocked when your arms are completely bent at the elbows. Naturally depending on your physical size. Too long a starting rope length & you'll be pulling way too far up your chest to be comfortably done. Too short & you'll be bending over to start the cocking process. Just right..! On my 10pt Xbow, the crank cocking mechanism is pretty noisy making subsequent shots unlikely, at best! The crank handle on my Xbow is removable and does attach to the stock for storage, so it's not something I need to remember to carry along like a rope. Not sure what you mean "as advertised", but they are much easier to use than the rope method. And IMHO a much safer method to use when up in a tree stand! Can be done while Xbow lies across your lap.

Obviously it depends on your bow, its' setup and the arrows you shoot. Can tell you I used two pins, 17yrds and another for ~27yrds. With that, each pin sighting was also good at about +/-5yrds within each pin's range at maybe ~1" difference either high or low for the extremes. Certainly would NOT suggest that for you w/o knowing your s/u. Once you get the 1st (20yrd) pin sighted in and are consistent with it. Experiment & see how close or far away from the 20yrd range you can be and still be within those blocks ~3" bull's eye. Depending on your bow/arrow, the 2nd pin will have less variation or room for error at ~30yrds, maybe +/-3yrds. Lot of experimenting and deciding what actually will be your self-imposed max shot. Your ability will decide this, not what some idiot on TV does!! This is definitely a case where less (pins) is better. Keep it simple! As you can see from the replies, not a lot of deer are taken beyond 30yrds. Years ago the DEC posted an average yardage for bow kills, 18yrds. Even with the huge advancements in bow technology, can't imagine that has changed much over the years! No offense, but your timing sucks! Should have all this defined by now & simply practicing with it. IMHO, Six weeks before the season opens is NOT the ideal time to be experimenting with sights &/or buying new ones! Do what ya' gotta do! After you've hunted from a tree stand some, you'll realize why no one has a 10yrd pin. A deer that is 10yrds or less, you are pretty much shooting at the top of the ribcage. Best you can hope for is a spine shot and it drops in its' tracks. Worse case is a single lung shot and a long blood trail tracking, if you get a pass thru. Otherwise there won't be any blood with a single puncture/wound on the top of the rib cage and possibly a lost, mortally wounded deer. Meaning...as excited as you might get, let them take a few steps out to 15-20yrds before shooting.

You & me both! Was less than 2mi from where I live, really convenient! Old dude (Don DeMay..?) would talk your ear off if you mentioned MLs. Super nice guy and his wife too, who also worked there w/the paperwork end of the business! Sorry for digressing, back to our regularly scheduled program...!

Once you've mastered the technique of setting up or relocating a ladder stand it's fairly straight forward and can be done by one person. Even an old fart! Granted, not something you'd want to do mid-season while trying to be unintrusive! They do have their place and benefits. Not everyone is comfortable nesting with the eagles, while lashed to a tree and any possible insecurity issues associated with hang-ons. All the different types of stands have their benefits and trade-offs! Aren't those F&S Outpost XL stands the ones with the "D" shaped vertical ladder sections. Very substantial stands! Those more traditional 1" square tube construction models are pretty flimsy if you get one more than 15-18' tall. Extra, HD ratchet straps can make even a flimsy ladder stand more secure!!!

Basically the DEC stated they were going to stick to their original 2012-2016 Whitetail Mgmt Plan. Regardless of all the controversy caused by their early bow & ML doe only proposed legislations. Also referenced the Cornell survey, you know where only ~2500 individuals responded to it!??! As growalot mentioned, they literally dismissed the earn-a-buck concept. Next step would be to have a portion of the regular season, doe only. That is if bow & ML hunters did NOT reduce the population sufficiently. The DEC is acting like the spoiled kid that owns the bat & ball. It'll be my way or no way! FUBAR! Politics at its' worst & at our expense! So, to play that game, get all the DMPs you can, fill them out as harvests & report them, regardless if you actually kill any. Not like the DEC actually knows how many deer are really out there anyways.

LMAO. If any of us really thought we had this hunting thing figured out perfectly, would be time to take up checkers or chess! I too have guidelines or rules of thumb, but they seem to go out the window when sitting in a stand and a buck is approaching that gets your heart pounding. I'm a sucker for a buck with a unique rack, either a big 6pt, a tall or wide rack, nontypical formation, etc. To me a basket 8pt is generally boring. Not to say I haven't shot a few. One of my most memorable and adrenaline charged encounters, but nothing to brag about was with a 2yo 6pt. So, to each his own!

Fairly straight forward question, but with no right, wrong or correct answer! Depends on the property you hunt, if you own, lease or have permission to hunt, how you access the cams (by foot or ATV), how you justify any human intrusion and mostly the distance or accessibility to the property. Almost forgot, how much time you can afford to take out of your busy life's schedule to go & check your cams. In a perfect world, we'd all have lots of disposable income and own several of those expensive trail cams with solar panels and cellular transmitted photos. Yeah, right!?! In my world - I'm retired and live close to my property, so time is not an issue! Own my property and pay taxes on it, so it's hard to justify not enjoying it as much as I can. Am on my property ~3-4/week from about April thru Labor Day doing maintenance, upkeep, improvements &/or stand relocating. So the deer get used to my ATV , chain sawing, mowing intrusions. Evident by trail cam photos seen from subsequent SD card swaps. For me, it's ~ every 5 days that I check my cams. Completely different scenario or set of rules for other philosophies, situations or properties!!

Very novel philosophy, sort of reverse AR..!?! lol. Whatever makes you happy in the woods and while attaching a tag!!!

Bless you Bills fans!! No other NFL fan has gone thru as much heart break over the decades, including the Kelly era super bowl appearances. Having been a huge fan from the Ferguson thru Kelly era, it just got to be too much heart break for me. Hope they make me eat my words, but being a small market team they may never get to their 1990s level of play again.

Can't speak about some of the vine plants mentioned, but poison ivy I know about. My property is literally infested with it. Neat to think you're feeding the deer or birds by letting them eat the ivy berries.....But, they are spreading the seeds thru their droppings! By cutting the vines, yes you're killing that part off and possibly saving the host trees. But, really you're propagating growth of the runner root system. In my experience, a good herbicide for brush & ivy is expensive and doesn't go far, dilution ration. It will kill off the ground growth, until the following year when it reappears. You can get small infestations under control by spraying & repeatedly tilling up the runner root system until that eventually dies off. Large infestations of poison ivy are another matter. Cut vines, mow ground growth, be careful with equipment handling, clothing/footwear care and live with it!! Oh yeah - Prednisone is a wonder drug prescribed by the family doctor!

Mr. Duke, promised myself I wouldn't provoke a rut trigger discussion this year! Being a good boy! Yes, good luck to all this year. May the hunting gods &/or lost partners smile down upon you.

Exactly what I was getting at! Which made the study solely based on nutrition. As we've read by the posts in this thread, it really is a nutrition &/or genetics issue. Not as the study tries to imply, one vs the other. I've softened my opinion while listening to others that may have a better "big picture" viewpoint. Good nutrition is the equalizer, overshadowing genetics to some degree or making it less obvious. Where nutrition is poor, better or variations in genetics will be more evident. The fine print - generally speaking or as a rule of thumb.

Exactly what I was trying to imply. I always stand up when I originally see the deer and position my body for the shot opportunity, slow and deliberate movements. As deer approaches, bow is then raised. When deer is about to step into opening where I can shoot, bow is then drawn slowly, straight back. Since I'm a dinosaur, my hold time is in the 20-30sec max time frame. Works for me! One final semi-related issue with hold time. For a newbie, lets start out with shots on a standing deer & not take shots at one that's walking. A gut shot disaster waiting to happen! If the deer doesn't stop, make him/her stop with some sort of noise. I made a blat with my mouth, which sounds more like a sheep or calf than a deer, but it works. How loud? Loud enough to get their attention, but not so loud it startles them and puts them on alert. May have to make sounds multiple times, each one somewhat louder until you get their attention. Oh yeah, then there's buck fever. Going to let you experience that for yourself and not try to explain it.

Nothing to do with OP's question, but a tip for a newbie. Practicing with a block or 3-D target on the ground, with a horizontal arrow's flight is slightly different than hitting the same vitals at an angled shot from up in a tree. You have to mentally visualize where the vitals are and adjust your aim point to hit them. Basically, compensating for the angle of the shoot! Especially true with closer shots, where shot angle is pretty steep. Also, deer rarely pose completely broadside, so that compensating angle comes into effect too. Wish I had it available, but there was a great animated (game) practice for this visualization somewhere on the web. Possibly on Deer and Deer Hunting's website...?

But it looks so simple & easy on the TV hunting shows... You see a deer 80yrds away, go to full draw, you can count all 20pts, 5min later it's in range & broadside, your unphased & rock steady, launch an arrow, perfect shot, dead deer, high fives, off to the taxidermist. How hard can that be?? Kidding, of course!

Lets revisit this wolf reintroduction storyline 20 years from now when the single attraction at Yellowstone are the geysers! Assuming they won't be viewed as so cute or beneficial when they've established a significant population, killed or driven off all the deer, elk, moose & buffalo and then migrated to more populated regions, huntable areas or ranch lands. Anyone else think there might have been a logical reason there was a bounty on them decades ago??? At least in NA, they are the true definition of a natural born killer, esp in packs!

Basic answer to your question is, long enough to get a well placed shoot off on an animal within your comfort range and as unnoticed as possible. Lot of things influence this and it becomes more of a complex question, with varying answers. Many factors in determining how long you can or even need to hold at full draw. Your equipment - Like others have mentioned. You - Your body type, muscle tone and to some extent, what you do for a living. For people with less than Rambo-ish physics or that sit at a desk for a living, this can be augmented by specific exercises. Naturally, the more you practice with your bow, the more you develop this specific set of muscles and the longer you can hold at full draw. Shooting style - The biggy! If you practice standing up, better plan on shooting this way at your prey. If using a climber tree stand and shooting sitting down, practice the same way - sitting. Do yourself a favor and do NOT get caught up in the mentality of bigger is better. If you have to come to full draw using the proverbial "windmill" motion, lower you draw wgt until you can draw directly back with a fluid motion. Then as you practice more you can progressively increase draw wgt while still maintaining that fluid, horizontal draw movement. Nothing less effective or unethical about shooting in the 50# draw wgt range. Hunting habitat - A reasonable time to be at full draw varies according to the ground cover you're hunting in. Meaning shoot opportunities. Open woods, dense cover with shooting lanes, edge of a field or brushlot. Each scenario presents different situations of being ready &/or drawing your bow as unnoticed as possible. This is where that fluid draw motion comes into play!! Oh yeah, better practice what gun hunters refer to as snap shooting. ID target, get ready, aim, good form and release an arrow in a 5-10sec time frame. Deer don't always come in leisurely walking thru the woods or a field, giving you 5min to prepare mentally and pick your shot, as depicted on TV. Ingenuity - If any of the above or combination of factors, presents a problem for you, Use you brain to over come them and make your shortcomings work in your favor If you find you can't hold at full draw for 1min or more, hunt from a stand where you are sitting, but shoot standing up, hunt in the open woods - be prepared to adjust your stand placement &/or concealment to level the playing field. This is where trail cams, scouting, finding travel routes or considering what your profile looks like or the back drop of the stand is very helpful. IMHO, deer will pick up your movement more often when you're trying to stand up than drawing the bow. Do this early! Learn from my mistakes, an ideal looking stand location becomes blatantly useless when the leaves are off the trees in the fall and any movements can be picked off 100yrds away. Granted, may seem really removed from your original question, but adaptability has a huge impact on your hunting and the need to be at full draw for lengthy periods.

Don't completely disagree with your opinion, just a couple of ideas you've stated seem to go against what I see. In the end, probably a case of what we're seeing, where we hunt. From what I recall, you hunt numerous & possibly differing areas/habitats..? Granted, you probably have a more "big picture" view of this than I do, where nutrition is an equalizer!! For the record and as possibly an extreme example, I hunt an area where there isn't any supplemental or nutritional agr crops within 2-3 miles of my property. Soil conditions are, at best - poor. Which in my tiny brain, seems to remove any nutritional equalizing factors in overall deer (buck) wgt &/or rack size from the equation. So what I tend to see are strictly the genetic rack configuration or variations being passed on from generation to generation. Whether it be perpetual taller or basket shaped racks, no brow tines or the never more than a big 6pt, Hard for me to justify nutritional variations as a factor when a phenomenal (rack) buck appears and what I'm assuming could be some of his offspring showing up in 2-3yrs. Just my micro-ecosystem view point! Skewed, certainly!

Always thought a velvet buck mount would be neat.. Oops, did I say that? Wish I still had the back issue of NYON where the DEC was asked about the results of the email and postal comments. Believe their take was "Mixed results, some for, some against..and most points of view were either strongly pro or con". I didn't get the impression there was any overwhelming majority, either way. Which leads me to believe the hunting community had no real effect on DEC's decision to make the changes they did. I do not foresee any deer apocalypse, like the DEC is forecasting. Doesn't mother nature generally take care of overpopulation issues herself?

Confused, are you saying the original (in the wild) 3X sub-groups were different genetically or pretty much similar? Will agree though, probably much larger variation in genetics of bucks in the wild, of similar ages than your basic good, normal or bad bloodlines/genetics. Think a more telling result would have been derived if deer were captured from within the same soil condition area, pick one. Then separated (if possible) by genetics into sub-groups of good, normal, poor, force feed over 3 generations and the results recorded. Believe nutrition would have been shown as a typical % increase over all sub-groups. The good genetics group getting awesome, the normal becoming great and the poor bloodlines becoming more average. Yes, No? So in the end, it isn't merely one or the other, nutrition or genetics. It's both or maybe can't have one w/o the other!

This over population and need for DMP increased harvests are NOT new phenomena within the last few years! So why didn't the DEC make early Oct bow season doe only back when they rolled back opening day to Oct 1st. Certainly would have been much easier a pill to swallow back then. Think we all could see this coming in the areas effected with these new changes. Just a little confused....thought there was to be a public comment period and nothing would change for 2015 due to the scheduling of these meetings??? Seems to be way too much weight put on these new changes simply from the Cornell survey of ~2500 hunters. You Xbow hunters, still need the ML license to hunt with them in early Nov. Which now makes even less sense to me since I'll probably opt out of the late ML season.

Sorry, but after watching the video (MSC study presentation) a 2nd time, I don't see where genetics had anything to do with the results. The MSC assumption was that deer from 3X different soil conditions, with differing wgt/rack sizes were actually genetically different. If you can force feed penned deer, originally from different soil conditions, over 3X generations and as a result have similar wgt/rack sizes between the sub-groups - How was genetics a factor in the original size variations over the 3X soil conditions? The study basically showed that you can make deer bigger by supplementing their nutrition. Alright, improving your soil conditions! Am I missing the genetics vs nutrition results Dr Grant Woods thought he saw in the study?