wolc123

I thought that might be the case, when I found my first Adirondack buck's carcass lying under a big pine tree a few years ago. He was laying on fresh snow, and there was not an external mark on him or a single drop of blood visible on the snow. His eyes were wide open, as I stuck the muzzle of my rifle into one of them, to check for a blink. I always do that when walking up on a deer in that condition. I rolled him over and there was no mark or blood on the other side, or under him. When I gutted him, and cut through the diaphram, the lungs were both like jelly. I could see three holes looking from the inside of the rib cage, one centered on a rib, and two off to each side. At first I thought all three of my shots hit him, but it turns out only the last one did. The other two were caused by bone fragments. A branch must have caught my first well-rested shot, as he stood by the creek down in the valley below the ridge I was on. My second shot was taken offhand, as he walked into another opening. Offhand is not easy for anyone at about 300 yards and I only took that one because I assumed my first one hit. Fortunately, the sound of that second shot must have caught his attention, causing him to stop walking just as I reached a tree to rest my heavy rifle on. It had to be that third and final 150 gr 30/06 bullet that struck the second last rib, as he was quartering away. It ended up inside the shoulder on the opposite side, dropping him dead in his tracks, but out of view from my firing position. I have also killed a few woodchucks with my 22/250, that did not have an external mark on them or loose any blood. A pointed bullet makes a tiny hole thru on the entrance side, and you can often not see it thru the hide. Inside, I am sure those chuck's guts were a jumbled mess, much like I found in that buck's chest. In the case of that 50 cal, if it really did hit the eye on one side and then pushed thru about 1/2 inch of the densest bone on a deer, it surely would have done a lot more damage coming out. I doubt anyone would believe that it passed thru both eyes if they first went and looked closely at a deer skull. A deer's head is not a hollow sphere of bone with eye holes on each side as many apparently believe. If it was, and the bullet just had to penetrate jello like eye balls and brains, Then I would go along with the in one and out the other theory. The problem with that is that the biological structure of the skull does not support it. Please take a look at a skull before replying to the contrary.

2-7 scope cranked up to 7 for the 175 yard shot. That combo holds a 3" group at 200 and I had a pretty good rest. The snow and lack of any blood helped convinced me of a miss after 300 yards of tracking. I never trust snow now, because small drops of hot blood cuts right through it. I might push a broadside shot to 200 now with that setup but any kind of an angle will keep me under 150 yards. There just is not enough energy on a 50 cal sabot load pushed by 100 grains of 777 to penetrate well beyond that range. With my open-sighted side-lock, 75 yards is about as far as I would shoot.

If you do hunt with that side-lock, you might want to prime the channel behind the nipple with some powder, in addition to the normal load. I just remove the nipple, and force some powder down the channel with a nipple pick or a needle. Until I started doing that, hang-fires and mis-fires were a recurring problem, especially in real cold and snowy conditions. Firing off a few caps before loading also helps out a bit, but having that continuous band of powder, right up to the load, made it go off instantly, just like an in-line, every time. That is on the target range anyhow, and when unloading after an unsuccessful hunt. I never fired it at another deer since getting my in-line/ I am not taking chances, until my buck tag is filled, but I might bring out my old Traditions side-lock for DMP's if I am able to do that with my shotgun this weekend or my T/C Omega in-line early the following week. The only thing I killed with my old side-lock was a gray squirrel that I decapitated with it after a 2 second hang-fire (my point of aim was center lung). It would be cool to get a doe or better yet, a button buck with it. My Omega has hit right where I aimed and killed every deer that I shot it at. I did loose one of those because I wrongly assumed a miss, and gave up tracking a little too soon. With fresh snow, you would think at least a drop of blood would have showed on over 300 yards of tracks, but it did not. He made it another 50 or so, past where I lost his tracks, with a what was likely a single lung hit. The coyotes got most of him in the week it took the crows to point him out to me. The loss of that deer, 13 years ago, caused me to reduce my range with that 50 cal ML to 150 yards on anything other than a broadside shot. The ill-fated shot was quartering away at 175.

Those are still 1/2" diameter and pointed. Imagine the angle that the bone fragments would be projected out at. How could that be smaller than the eye socket ? Take a look at how much solid bone is between the eyes in a deer skull. One quick look at a euro will show you that there is no way a 50 could pass thru from one eye to the other with that exit wound.

Are you a "head-shooter" ?

How could the OP video guy get a 50 thru from one eye to the other without hitting bone ? Don't you have a deer scull handy so you could understand what I mean ? Even if the bullet did not expand, all the bone chunks from contact of that 1/2" diameter , pointed bullet would be expelled thru the exit side at a wide angle, creating a wound significantly larger than the eye socket. We don't see evidence of that in the clear footage of the right side eye at the end of the video.

I almost went along with the "in one eye and out the other" theory, until I looked close at the internal scull structure on a euro that I had handy. Now I see that there is no way a .50 could pass thru there without contacting lots of bone. It would surely cause a much larger exit wound. Based on the video, the doe's left eye would have been the entrance. We get a good look at the right eye at the end of the video. I have had my hair parted by a shotgun slug. Based on how that felt, I have no doubt that the pressure of a round, with more than 10 times the energy, could cause that damage without making contact. Those of you who have not felt the shock wave of a bullet against your head, or don't have a whitetail skull handy to examine, are not in as good of a position to call this shot, so I can understand your confusion. So the video does prove that as long as the energy is high enough and the distance is close enough, then a deer can be killed with a miss. The guy was very wrong to call that "a very ethical kill" however. A head shot is never an ethical kill. I won't even take one on a squirrel. An ethical kill is one that is taken at a point that provides the largest +/- error, in all directions, of killing the animal cleanly. Anyone who has seen a deer with a missing lower jaw, arrow sticking out below an ear, etc, should be able to understand that. Again, taking a look at a euro, you will see that the deer's brain is only about an inch and a half to two inches in diameter. That is not much larger than a ping-pong ball. Contrast that to the heart/lung area that is closer to the size of a beach ball. A shot at a beach-ball sized kill-zone, from any range with any weapon, and from any angle, is far more "ethical" than a shot at a ping-pong ball sized kill zone.

I rarely see any after Thanksgiving, but usually both of my buck tags are punched by then, which takes away most of my drive to hunt. If no buck shows up on this last weekend of SZ gun, then I am really looking forward to late ML because I will still have my gun buck tag. About 20 years ago, I attempted a shot on a very large buck, that had already dropped the antler on one side, as he passed thru the hedgerow below my treestand. Unfortunately, I was armed with my old side-lock, and only the cap went off. That was one of two antlered buck that I have seen during that late season. The other one was about 10 years ago. He was even larger and had both his horns, and I had my in-line ML. He responded to rattling but did not present a shot that I thought I could make. I have taken a few does and button bucks during that late season, but never one with a legal antler. Maybe this year will be the first.

Does that mean it would be your final answer to the "one gun" question ? If so, then it looks like we have a clear leader.

This is a very easy one for me and grampy has already given the right answer. My own grandpa's old, model 37 Ithaca, 16-gauge with a smoothbore deerslayer barrel, and a second barrel with a modified choke, will take any game in NY. I hunted with it for a few hours last Saturday morning on his old farm and I passed on a small-antlered buck at 40 yards, broadside. I am nearly certain that it would have put him down easily, just as it has on all but one deer that I ever shot it at. He just needed to take another step or two to get off the neighbor's posted land. I still have the weathered old 8-point rack of the last buck my grandpa killed with it nailed onto the front wall of our barn. The one miss was prior to mounting a 1.5X Weaver scope on it 34 years ago. Every time I have pulled the trigger with those crosshairs on a deer, it has ended up in the freezer. Only one of them took more than one shot. My biggest one took a slug for every antler point but that is a story for another thread. The last time I fired it at a deer was 6 years ago, when it took my second largest antlered buck with one slug to the neck from 10 yards. I will try it again this weekend. It's 100 yard effective range is just about right for a spot I have in mind, the ammo is cheap, and our venison supply is secure, so it is time for a little "nostalgia". 12 gauges are a little too big and 20's a little too small, but the 16 is just right in the center. This gun packs nearly the wallop of a 12 gauge and is almost as light to carry as a 20. A shotgun is more versatile than a rifle, and a pump is about the most dependable action, so this one is could be the correct answer to the "one-gun" question by universal standards. For me, it also has the sentimental attachment thru my grandpa. That, coupled with it's 100% effectiveness, since mounting the scope, would make it the last gun I would part with. There is not even a close second. I might part with the matching serial number modified barrel though if anyone needs one. It has not been on it since I mounted the scope. The only time I used it, when I was 14, I fired 14 shots at 10 grouse and did not hit one of them. The stock was a little too long for me then. Anyhow, that is the excuse I am sticking to.

It is even worse if you are sitting in a tree hammock seat strapped below one in the rain. Those things hold water just like a bath-tub and collect it off the tree like a funnel. Don't ask me how I know. It is is good to hear that folks have shot deer during the rain under one though.

So far you got recommendations for a couple $ 250 Barnetts that have gotten the job done for one reason or another. Hopefully, someone will chime in on a high-dollar model for you so you can unload that cash that is burning a hole in your pocket. Hopefully, you will meet with some success and I am sorry if I have offended you by speaking the truth.

What make / model do you have with the loose screw ? What kind of effective range are you looking for ? I can't help it that you can't handle the truth. Eventually it will catch up to you. Until then I will keep up with the reminders.

What entry-level crossbow do you have ? I am 3/3 on deer with my 300 fps, 150 pound draw weight, Barnett Recruit. All three bucks died within 40 yards from where they were hit. The shot ranges were 59, 15, and 30 yards. Penetration was marginal on the first and longest shot (only 8"), but fortunately that took the mechanical broadhead all the way thru the heart. I would call that Recruit a legit 50 yard weapon for deer and I purchased and use a laser rangefinder, after that marginal long range penetration, to be sure that I stay under 50 yards going forward. I really like the light weight, narrow width, smooth trigger, and ease of handling of this inexpensive model ($250 package deal with illuminated dot scope). Right now it is a tossup if and when full inclusion hits on whether or not I will upgrade a bit. I may just purchase another one of these for backup, as I am pretty content with a 50 yard range during archery season. The 30 yard shot that I made with the Recruit this year, in the fading light of the late afternoon, was definitely the riskiest of all the shots that I have taken on deer to this point with the Recruit. That shot was taken in the woods, at a walking buck, while the other two shots were taken across open fields at standing bucks. When I revisited that stand in the mid-day light, and saw my bolt stuck in the ground, I could not believe all the small branches it threaded thru on the way to double lunging that buck. I have a very good friend who struck and wounded a nice buck with his $ 1200 crossbow this season. The lesson here is that dollars do not provide certainty of getting the job done. If you have read any of my previous posts, you will know Who I give ALL of the credit for getting it done every time. If not, here is a little hint for you: Get yourself a Bible and read it a bit. In there you will learn who controls the fate of all living things, which certainly includes Whitetail deer. Stay on good terms with Him, and they end up in your freezer every time. No amount of money is going to get that job done any better. It is no wonder that He shows special favor on those who choose a Crossbow.

I wonder if many folks have shot a deer from under one of those while it is raining? The rain hitting them is so loud it sounds like a drum. I guess they might be ok at high-powered rifle range, but probably not so good while bowhunting. Your odds are definitely better than mine will be while at work though. I still have (3) DMP's, and a buck tag to work on in the snow this weekend, and a antlerless only bow/ml tag for the following weekend (sorry about my error on that last one earlier JL - good catch).

I also have a 500 yard range out back, but I don't shoot the deer guns any more that it takes to verify zero each season. I learned a lesson on that last year, by not getting that done on the Marlin 512 slugmaster that I used to kill a doe today. I shot a doe with it last year, but hit her above the spine on my first shot. That wrecked some meat and required a second "finisher" to the neck. I had skimped on sighting last year, figuring I could just aim low on a deer to compensate for the zero being a few inches higher than I wanted. That is easy to say but hard to do in "live action". The full box of ammo it took to zero it this year paid off by putting the slug almost exactly where I wanted it to go on today's doe. Two reasons that I do not shoot the deer guns more are cost of ammo and peace and quite in the neighborhood. I like to get all my "real gun" shooting done by the start of bow-season, because I rarely see any deer activity while the neighbors are target practicing, and I would rather not subject others to that kind of aggravation. I get around both those issue by doing most all of my marksmanship training off the back porch with my daughters BB guns. I probably shoot those around 2000 times a year, based on the level of BB's in the big jug I bought a couple years ago. Our older daughter joined the high school rifle team this year and we just bought her a fancy .177 cal rifled pelletgun for Christmas. That will be a bit of an upgrade over the smoothbore Daisy red-ryder and Crossman 760 that they have now and it will also permit some longer range practice for me. Hopefully it will take BB's because their cost and availability is tough to beat. I modified the Red-ryder with a big loop and adult sized stock to match my Marlin 336BL almost exactly in dimensions. It probably weighs half as much though. Unfortunately, I did not see any Adirondack bucks to shoot that Marlin at on our Adirondack trips this season. Maybe next year. I can lay down some pretty accurate and fast open-sight fire with that lever now thanks in part to all the bb-gun practice. Our favorite practice involves cutting beer cans in half with BB's, as they hang from a wire off a tree branch. That is way faster than shooting cans off a rail, and it provides moving target practice, as the cans swing on the wire from the wind or from previous shot impacts.

Damn, you are heading pretty close to where I had to give up on a big set of tracks last Sunday, because I had to get the girls home from their grandparents place. It was a big wide set of tracks, headed up a mountain at 11:00 am, not too far off route 3. I hope you get him, or at least get a look at him. We made it out of there just in the nick of time on the holiday weekend. There was a huge backup Westbound on the 90 about an hour later and my brother got stuck in it for a few hours.

Some of you guy's with scales should consider checking the chest girth with a tape measure so we can develop our own NY state weight table. A problem I have with the PA table is that it does not say if the chest girth should be measured before or after field dressing. Both of my girth measurements were after field dressing so the deer may have actually weighed even more. p.s, Thanks for bringing Him up again Chef, and I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Wake her up and have her show you the picture again.

I guess it does look a little like an exit wound. I put a bullet in the but hole once but never had one exit from it. Last season, I did have a crossbow bolt exit near that spot, but a little further off. IT must have deflected off the rear of the shoulder blade and angled back. I wondered how I could have hit the opposite side rear leg when I aimed just behind the front as he hobbled off dragging the leg. If that was a bullet exit on that doe, it is a little off. If you are going to do it, might as well hit the spot right on.

What about the butt-out thread you started last year ? Does your wife remember the dump you left her that she took a picture of for you ? Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

That was blood stains from the "blood rinse" that I always do to get rid of any bad stuff (#1, #2, stomach juice, etc) that might be left in the cavity after gutting. I always wash the blood from forward of the diaphram down thru the butt-hole rather than just dumping it out. Blood does not taint the flavor of the tenderloins as much as piss, crap, or stomach juice, and is always readily available in sufficient quantity to get the job done. Why do you have such a butt fixation ? edit, I just finished the skinning and the shot was just forward of the shoulder blade, at the base of the neck as the doe passed broadside. The slug struck very close to my intended point of impact and is probably my second best shot on a deer. I think you remember my best one, since it was you who provided me the incentive to stick with the bore gauge with which I was able to verify it's exact position and angularity.

I would say it did, based on how much ended up in the butcher trays that I used, and what the PA game commission chart indicated for that chest girth. I initially thought it would only yield about 80 pounds. It appeared to have a lot of fat on it, based on what came out of the cavity while gutting and the looks of the rump. As it turned out though, there was very little fat to trim. It was very solid with about 2" of lean meat covering the outside of the ribs (that probably explains the high chest girth measurement). Usually, I don't get much useable meat from the sides the rig-cage. Using the arrow instead of the bullet also results in a lot less bloody meat being wasted.

Thank you for bringing up God again. We just can't get enough of Him on a hunting website. After all, it is He who determines the fate of all living things. I am very thankful that He blessed us with that fat doe today. A smaller button buck would have been nice though , considering the drag across that ditch and the broken rope and wet foot I suffered. I still have three 9F DMP tags, and an either or ML/bow tag, so it ain't over yet. I will be gunning for one (or four) thru about ten additional hunts that I have planned thru the end of ML. After today's church-day good fortune, I may just skip another of those planned Sunday morning hunts. p.s, The 2-4 estimate was based on 50 pounds from an average-sized deer. We went into this season with 75 pounds of vacuum-sealed venison left over in the freezer from last year (including a few choice button buck roasts that I am saving for special occasions). The Big buck (your kind of BB) I killed during crossbow this year yielded about 100 pounds. 60 pounds from today's doe puts us about 35 pounds in the black. Any more (except button bucks) will be go to my brother in law, who makes the best jerky I have ever had, or to the hunters feeding the hungry program. As long as the freezer don't quit, we should not starve. I am very thankful to have discovered the secret for living a subsistance lifestyle like we do. It beats the heck out of raising beef, or getting your food from pricey food joints. edit: I forgot that my gun buck tag also reverts to an either/or tag so (5) of my kind of BB's is possible yet this season. I am not sure how many "fatted calves" I deserve but one would sure be nice this year. I will continue to target the largest antlerless deer first though, because feeding the hungry is more important than feeding me like a king.

$30 won't buy an honest scale. I prefer spending my money on bullets or giving it away to the poor.