Management Buck?

[WNY Bowhunter]

I think that we all can agree on this one: This is a case of BAD genetics!!!

[WNYBuckHunter]

Now that sounds like a "plan"...lol. Good luck and personally I think he would make a great mount.

X2. Good luck!

[phade]

So is this. But, it is safe to say enviornmental factors also contribute.

[WNYBuckHunter]

[WNY Bowhunter]

That one is way too big to drag out of the woods!!!

Here's a good little article on the topic...

http://www.qdma.com/articles/why-we-cant-manage-deer-genetics

[Culvercreek hunt club]

WNY...Is it bad genetics? It looks like a 1/1/2 year old deer to me. does he have damaged pedicles? If you showed me this on a 3 1/2 yo deer I bet we could say with pretty good certainty. I can't here....I can't see in his jeans...lol

[WNY Bowhunter]

Besides these pics I had no history with this deer other than finding his broken mainbeam earlier that morning. It had a really long browtine with a big fork above it. The antler was really flat as you can see by the little stub that's still there. Look at the head on that guy, he isn't a yearling!!! I'm guessing he was probably 3.5 years old. He may have acquired some sort of injury but he still wasn't a frontrunner in the genetics department.

Edited August 3, 2012 by WNY Bowhunter

[phade]

Besides these pics I had no history with this deer other than finding his broken mainbeam earlier that morning. It had a really long browtine with a big fork above it. The antler was really flat as you can see by the little stub that's still there. Look at the head on that guy, he isn't a yearling!!! I'm guessing he was probably 3.5 years old. He may have acquired some sort of injury but he still wasn't a frontrunner in the genetics department.

Another thing, too, is even at that age, he was likely a late born deer. I learned this one day while having conversations with three QDMA staff biologists at their HQ - it was eye opening for me, because I had always thought a late-born buck would catch up after that first year. This is how it was explained to me:

Late born deer tend to be less dominant in many cases, and it follows through throughout many years of their life. Even at 3.5 his role at the dinner table and bedding areas were likely lower than many of the other bucks. He likely didn't have the best core area (I know you have TONS of food and cover there, but he probably had the scraps, had the least amount of time to feed, and traveled the farthest from bed to food). He's like the small kid that gets picked on, all the time, and grows into a reclusive weakling adult that avoids interactions with other humans and backs down when it can't be avoided. Overtime, that behavior is engrained into their daily life and potential is limited significantly. He could have had the genes to be a body builder, but we'll never know, because the environment prevented the possibility.

No doubt this guy is 2.5-3.5, but I bet he's had a hard life, even though you are in an area of NY hunting paradise quality-wise. The pics are big supporter of it, acutally. He's old enough to know that daylight movement can get him killed, yet, where is he? Out in the open eating fallen apples. It's also the peak of the rut, he doesn't look like he's doing much rutting/breeding, and instead eating away. He's eating them because the other bucks are on the search. Those pics are fascinating and useful for some learning here for sure!

Edited August 3, 2012 by phade

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I guess I am wrong. I just don't see it. pics are early in the season. his chest is small

[mt624]

I think that we all can agree on this one: This is a case of BAD genetics!!!

So by what Phade just posted above, it is potentially more of a late birth and environmental/competition issue than genetics. Unless I read that wrong. Looks like he wasn't last to the apple tree though!

[phade]

So by what Phade just posted above, it is potentially more of a late birth and environmental/competition issue than genetics. Unless I read that wrong. Looks like he wasn't last to the apple tree though!

The cold hard truth is that there are no ways for us to determine that. But, what we do know, is that the environment has so many variables, that taking care of them is where the biggest net gains are had in management. Therein lies the problem with genetics - becuase you really can't impact it in a constantly changing gene pool with a limitless number of environmental factors.

[WNY Bowhunter]

I guess I am wrong. I just don't see it. pics are early in the season. his chest is small

It's not that early...November 10. Just look at the the neck on him...his body is angled away making it appear smaller. For compasrison, here are two yearling bucks at the same apple tree...

Edited August 3, 2012 by WNY Bowhunter

[phade]

his chest is small

Just more evidence, as a three year old with a smallish chest, that's he's low on the totem pole of life.

Edited August 3, 2012 by phade

[mt624]

The cold hard truth is that there are no ways for us to determine that. But, what we do know, is that the environment has so many variables, that taking care of them is where the biggest net gains are had in management. Therein lies the problem with genetics - becuase you really can't impact it in a constantly changing gene pool with a limitless number of environmental factors.

Exactly. Age and environment are pretty much the only things we can even try to "manage" as hunters/stewards of the environment.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

whish you had a shot of him in 2010.

[phade]

whish you had a shot of him in 2010.

Here he is:

[Culvercreek hunt club]

You guys were right then.....he is a genetic misfit

[nyantler]

I guess this guy should have been culled.. looks like bad genetics to me...

Edited August 3, 2012 by nyantler

[HuntOrBeHunted]

Another nice 6 nyantler, good job to your freind that harvested him.

[HuntOrBeHunted]

mt624 now thats what you call a "spike horn" lol.

[dave6x6]

Damn you Dave, that buck was awesome......... def no ordinary 6'er

Don't damn me canuck on that magnificant mainframe 6.. Only thing i did was help get him out of the truck and on the scale.. The real killer is on this site though. You know who it is and it is no surprise to you. Management 101. If three people can get in the picture with his antlers... Kill him.LOL

[mt624]

mt624 now thats what you call a "spike horn" lol.

Yes! Definitely a case of "bad" genetics. In 2003 I watched him come in on a really nice 3 year old 10 point and the 10 just put his head down and turned away, wanted nothing to do with him. Hard to believe, but he was a big racked main frame fork 4 point then and not a big body. From what I saw he had no brows at all. I thought he was a young deer but only saw him for a few seconds. I guess it could have been a relative but I've never seen a similar racked buck out there, before or since... We saw him and hunted him a bunch prior to and during the 2004 season, and my buddy watched him breed a doe on and off all day during one sit. We haven't seen a buck with a rack that resembles his in the years that have followed. His left main beam does spike up and the point that comes forward where the main beam typically is is actually a drop point. His right main beam is an even forked split, then the one that comes forward splits again. He has 10 legal points (1" or more). The DEC biologist aged him at 5+ years. He had been running hard, and weighed a whopping 136 lbs. dressed when shot on Dec 12th. Hunted and killed on 60 acres with a public walking trail along one side, residential on 3 sides with light commercial mixed in on one side and private park/no hunting on the 4th border. But lots of more open turf in 3 directions with hunting pressure just beyond. Boy am I glad nobody culled him out before me!

Edited August 4, 2012 by mt624

[mt624]

So what do you think, same deer from last year out of velvet?

[UnderDog]

So what do you think, same deer from last year out of velvet?

sure looks the same to me.

[mt624]

And same deer this year?

Edited November 8, 2013 by mt624