AR question

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Anything else just seems like an excuse for someone that doens't like hunting as much as killing. You would possibly see more than once in blue moon bucks that you knew were legal if you didn't shoot the first thing that you saw"

Toss in "the brown it's down " comment and I have no idea how anyone could draw a conclusion that he is full of himself. No idea at all. He seems to have aeveryone else pegged in how they hunt....I also think he is pegged pretty well too.

[BizCT]

what does a 16" spread have to do with hunting PA? The AR's in PA is either 3 to 1 side or 4 to 1 side depending on which part of the state your in.

[Guns&ReligionCop]

I didn't read anything that said he thought he was better than you... you're the only one that says he is better... sounds like you want everyone to have your attitude about hunting... you want him to give you slack about the way you hunt, but you aren't willing to give him the same slack for the way he sees hunting... I don't recall him resorting to calling anyone a jackass either...

No more arrogant than your posts sound or Doewhackers posts, or any of our posts for that matter.. just another strong opinion. One that I don't entirely agree with.. but still his opinion...

I'm pretty sure I said I like the challenge of finding older animals(nothing about size) and I also believe I said something along the lines of being able to tell if a deer is legal with out much difficulty not the exact amount of points but apparently thats not how it was translated. I guess back the poor eye sight thing :-P

A few years ago I wrote an article about the size of the hunt not the size of the horn. In summary I stated that a great hunt isn't reflect upon your trophy in others eyes but your own. Now for some that might mean pope and young size bucks others it might be a little basket 6 but for all it should be the quality of what they did in the woods. I also have written about hunting for whats in your area not what tv programs with people like Larry Weishun call a trophy. All I heard from any of these antler restriction people are the fact that it makes it more of a challenge and how hard it is to tell if its legal. I believe its much more of a challenge but completely disagree that it is all that difficult to determine a legal deer.

[Guns&ReligionCop]

what does a 16" spread have to do with hunting PA? The AR's in PA is either 3 to 1 side or 4 to 1 side depending on which part of the state your in.

Nothing at all, I was just saying as an example that you can easily tell a larger deer from a smaller one. That from the side you can see points and from a front view if its starting to get wide its going to have some points on it

[Pygmy]

Nothing at all, I was just saying as an example that you can easily tell a larger deer from a smaller one. That from the side you can see points and from a front view if its starting to get wide its going to have some points on it

Maybe..maybe not...Ever hunt Potter County ?.. I've seen 18 inch four points.. And that was well after ARs were instituted down there.

You say you've hunted PA all your life..How many years does that encompass.. ??

[Doewhacker]

No more arrogant than your posts sound or Doewhackers posts, or any of our posts for that matter.. just another strong opinion. One that I don't entirely agree with.. but still his opinion...

whew that was a close one Joe, it almost seemed like you insulting me for a second.

[nyantler]

whew that was a close one Joe, it almost seemed like you insulting me for a second.

I would never insult you Doe.. you're one of my favorite characters here.. you're the Ying to my Yang...LOL

[Doewhacker]

I would never insult you Doe.. you're one of my favorite characters here.. you're the Ying to my Yang...LOL

and at the end of the day we are both hunters, (and still hunters at that) lol

[nyantler]

and at the end of the day we are both hunters, (and still hunters at that) lol

That we are!

[Doc]

shooting at an animal that you are not positive of is not a mistake..

And the point that you are refusing to acknowlege is that the "mistake" part of all that is the deer that you are sure of that turns out to be something other than what you would have sworn it was. And I still maintain that there are circumstances where a tine or two from the far antler appear to be on the forward antler or vice versa. I have seen that happen, and was only shown the error of what I was "positive of" when the deer happened to turn it's head. And this kind of thing is so much easier to do on the smaller antlered deer, which coincidentally are the deer that the law is trying to distinguish between. Sure, I know the answer is simply don't shoot the smaller deer .... lol. Well then, be honest and write the law that way instead of monkeying around trying to make poachers out of people that normally wouldn't be.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

A few years ago I wrote an article about the size of the hunt not the size of the horn. In summary I stated that a great hunt isn't reflect upon your trophy in others eyes but your own. Now for some that might mean pope and young size bucks others it might be a little basket 6 but for all it should be the quality of what they did in the woods. I also have written about hunting for whats in your area not what tv programs with people like Larry Weishun call a trophy. All I heard from any of these antler restriction people are the fact that it makes it more of a challenge and how hard it is to tell if its legal. I believe its much more of a challenge but completely disagree that it is all that difficult to determine a legal deer.

I really don't get the logic. how does increasing the number of what you are hunting increase the challenge? Is it more of a challenge to fish for one legal fish in a 100 acre pond or 10,000 leagal fish in a 100 acre pond. If success and fulfillment is to be measured by the challenge wouldn't a mature buck being taken in a non AR area be more fulfilling?

[Guns&ReligionCop]

I really don't get the logic. how does increasing the number of what you are hunting increase the challenge? Is it more of a challenge to fish for one legal fish in a 100 acre pond or 10,000 leagal fish in a 100 acre pond. If success and fulfillment is to be measured by the challenge wouldn't a mature buck being taken in a non AR area be more fulfilling?

You completely misunderstood what I was saying there. I tried to give a brief summary sorry for the confusion. When I said size of hunt I wasn't refering to the animals size or quantity I was using "size" as a measurement term for the quality of the experience you have. More or less refering to the fact that antler size doesn't determine the quality of your overall experience. When I said "Size" of the hunt it was an overall involvement such as scouting, planning, out smarting a deer and other hunters if you hunt on state game land. I do agree with you that the size of the deer is completely relative to where you are hunting. That being said by preventing the hunting of smaller ones you see an increase in all sizes.

[BizCT]

Where I hunt (3N), any buck is a good one. I only pass spikes and 4's the first weekend. I would hate it if AR's came to 3N. They are already in place for some DEP lands in 3N.

[Guns&ReligionCop]

Where I hunt (3N), any buck is a good one. I only pass spikes and 4's the first weekend. I would hate it if AR's came to 3N. They are already in place for some DEP lands in 3N.

I hunt 3G and 3N and respectively have to disagree. Last year in 3G on state gameland I got 8 pt w/ 20" spread. I realize thats not the normal around here but it happens. The year before I got nice little 6 pt. I've seen some nice ones over in Kent in 3N but never had a shot. I went for a dinner at my buddies hunting camp right near the Taconic in 3N and they had some beautiful deer there last year. A few years before he got a 9pt there that scored 143!!!!!! There is a tremoundous amount of pressure here but drive around at night anywhere in putnam and you can point out big deer all over the place. The largest living deer I ever saw was in right in the parking lot of Thunder Ridge

[nyantler]

And the point that you are refusing to acknowlege is that the "mistake" part of all that is the deer that you are sure of that turns out to be something other than what you would have sworn it was. And I still maintain that there are circumstances where a tine or two from the far antler appear to be on the forward antler or vice versa. I have seen that happen, and was only shown the error of what I was "positive of" when the deer happened to turn it's head. And this kind of thing is so much easier to do on the smaller antlered deer, which coincidentally are the deer that the law is trying to distinguish between. Sure, I know the answer is simply don't shoot the smaller deer .... lol. Well then, be honest and write the law that way instead of monkeying around trying to make poachers out of people that normally wouldn't be.

How could you be positive before the buck turned it's head? Without seeing both sides you can't be positive... so the DEC is making hunters look a little longer at a buck before killing it... that is making responsible hunters out of hunters with itchy trigger fingers... the poacher comes from the hunters lack of responsibility, not the law. The law is very clear! Maybe it will create more responsible hunters out of all those irresponsible hunters you keep saying are taking over the woods. And, you know that I'm not talking about the deer you didn't shoot, I'm talking about the ones that get shot because the hunter didn't take the time to "positively" indentify his target.. that is not a mistake or an accident.

Edited September 20, 2012 by nyantler

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Actually, the ONLY guys I know that hunt near Rochester and wear brown Carhartts are the non-urban and non-suburban guys. I hunt with a group that consists of guys that have never spent a day of their lives living in the city, they work on farms or are farmers, and not many of them wear much camo. Its mostly brown or tan Carhartts and blaze vests and hats. Every guy I know thats from the city or burbs wears camo and/or blaze.

Just sayin...

Thats not real bright on any of their part. City or farmer!!! To have more brown on than orange in any part of the tier is stupid and to do that same thing on letchworth on opening day is asking for a slug in the ass!!! Trust me.. The guys i saw lived in the city but were born in another country... If ya get my drift!!!!

[Doc]

How could you be positive before the buck turned it's head? Without seeing both sides you can't be positive... so the DEC is making hunters look a little longer at a buck before killing it... that is making responsible hunters out of hunters with itchy trigger fingers... the poacher comes from the hunters lack of responsibility, not the law. The law is very clear! Maybe it will create more responsible hunters out of all those irresponsible hunters you keep saying are taking over the woods. And, you know that I'm not talking about the deer you didn't shoot, I'm talking about the ones that get shot because the hunter didn't take the time to "positively" indentify his target.. that is not a mistake or an accident.

No, that's got nothing to do with making hunters more responsible. That is simply adding on complexity and serves only as a harrassment for those that are not all jacked up on ARs. Now if the law is intended to only shoot bucks that cooperate by modeling their headgear in a certain way for you, then I think it goes way beyond a simple 3 point rule. In my hunting, the object is to arrange broadside shots and avoid causing the deer to look at you. That probably falls under the category of responsible hunting that helps guarantee a better kill shot and helps avoid a string-jump. And I might add that with that set-up, I have absolutely identified the target as a buck with enough headgear to satisfy me. That's just as much of a "positive identification" as guessing what points are attached to which antler.

Lol ... why don't we add in some spread widths and tine length estimates, and maybe the size and color of the throat patch. Hell, we can make it so nobody will ever shoot a buck. Kidding of course, but would that be enough positive identification for you .... lol. I maintain that it doesn't take any of this nonsense to clearly and positively identify the target as a deer, and that is simply a red-herring argument to help justify ARs as having some sort of safety component to it. I ain't buying it.

[steve863]

Lol ... why don't we add in some spread widths and tine length estimates, and maybe the size and color of the throat patch. Hell, we can make it so nobody will ever shoot a buck.

Even that isn't going far enough. We will need to coax the buck to open his mouth and say "ah", so that we can have a look at his teeth to get the most accurate assessment of his age. LOL

[WNYBuckHunter]

Thats not real bright on any of their part. City or farmer!!! To have more brown on than orange in any part of the tier is stupid and to do that same thing on letchworth on opening day is asking for a slug in the ass!!! Trust me.. The guys i saw lived in the city but were born in another country... If ya get my drift!!!!

We dont shoot at colors or movement, we shoot at deer. Its also almost exclusively private land hunting, and they all wear enough orange to easily be seen.

I agree that its stupid on state land, and I do see people on state land with brown on or no orange quite often.

[Guns&ReligionCop]

Quesion for anti-AR people on this thread, do any of you actually hunt areas with AR's? I'm participating in this but a lot of what you are saying is ficticious. Everyone I know that hunts in AR areas prefers it. I'm also seeing comments like "dead small dear everywhere" Last year on salt springs state park one illegal spike buck was found that would have never been mistaken for a legal deer it was someone that jst want to shoot something. All these statements about how hard it is to identify seem like they are coming from people that have never tried to identify and see how easy it actually is. Just curious.

[Doewhacker]

We have been through the AR disscussions for hundreds of pages, I suggest looking through the many threads if you are curious.

[nyantler]

I'm pretty sure I said I like the challenge of finding older animals(nothing about size) and I also believe I said something along the lines of being able to tell if a deer is legal with out much difficulty not the exact amount of points but apparently thats not how it was translated. I guess back the poor eye sight thing :-P

A few years ago I wrote an article about the size of the hunt not the size of the horn. In summary I stated that a great hunt isn't reflect upon your trophy in others eyes but your own. Now for some that might mean pope and young size bucks others it might be a little basket 6 but for all it should be the quality of what they did in the woods. I also have written about hunting for whats in your area not what tv programs with people like Larry Weishun call a trophy. All I heard from any of these antler restriction people are the fact that it makes it more of a challenge and how hard it is to tell if its legal. I believe its much more of a challenge but completely disagree that it is all that difficult to determine a legal deer.

My post was directed towards Doewhacker not you

[nyantler]

No, that's got nothing to do with making hunters more responsible. That is simply adding on complexity and serves only as a harrassment for those that are not all jacked up on ARs. Now if the law is intended to only shoot bucks that cooperate by modeling their headgear in a certain way for you, then I think it goes way beyond a simple 3 point rule. In my hunting, the object is to arrange broadside shots and avoid causing the deer to look at you. That probably falls under the category of responsible hunting that helps guarantee a better kill shot and helps avoid a string-jump. And I might add that with that set-up, I have absolutely identified the target as a buck with enough headgear to satisfy me. That's just as much of a "positive identification" as guessing what points are attached to which antler.

Lol ... why don't we add in some spread widths and tine length estimates, and maybe the size and color of the throat patch. Hell, we can make it so nobody will ever shoot a buck. Kidding of course, but would that be enough positive identification for you .... lol. I maintain that it doesn't take any of this nonsense to clearly and positively identify the target as a deer, and that is simply a red-herring argument to help justify ARs as having some sort of safety component to it. I ain't buying it.

How did we get from shooting the wrong deer is an accident or mistake to the DEC is forcing something on hunters that can't count to 5...I think you're making the 3 on a side rule way more complicated than it really is.. counting 5 points (the benchmark for the biggest deer you can't shoot) is not that difficult ... and the law wasn't made to pick out a buck that satisfies you.. it was made to protect most yearling bucks. If we're not protecting yearling bucks then I guess just identifying it as a buck would be enough... if you don't like the 3 on a side rule for yearling buck protection... then offer up another standard to achieve the goal. Otherwise that is the system.. like it or not. Without the restriction (which is minimal at best) you have no yearling buck protection... using the short comings of hunters isn't a good argument, in my opinion, against an AR to protect young bucks... especially something as simple as counting 3 points on a side... I understand that you don't agree... but I just don't see the complexity

and, you don't have to be jacked up on AR's to follow the law

[Doewhacker]

My post was directed towards Doewhacker not you

Must have been someone else? I didn't say much on this thread.

[nyantler]

Must have been someone else? I didn't say much on this thread.

OOps .. you're right.. it was Steve.. sorry.