Antler Restrictions

[jetmec]

We cant step backwards, the situation now is what it is. Now with DMPs and other antlerless tags, people can mistake a smaller spike, etc for a doe because the possibility of the ears masking small antlers is there. What should be done about that?

if you cant properly identify your target dont shoot. that is the responsible thing to do.

[PETERBFLY]

I understand that the 1.5 YO are bucks are misplaced by the doe groups, but the same happens on the property next to mine and so on. We have tons of deer where I hunt and I would say 85% of them are does and 1.5 YO bucks. Why do bucks have antlers? To compete for breeding rights correct? So why arent they all just spikes then? Why do the horns progressively get bigger and bigger each year? There is a scientific reason that nature intended them to grow and become more dominant. Perhaps it is for the health and balance of the overall herd? I know, im a dummy right? I think you are the same, but I am not the one insulting anyone.

[GreeneHunter]

Well, I have to go to work. Then I have to go to a veterans meeting tomorrow, so I won't be able to argue with your sorry self until tomorrow night. What a pity.

Thanks for serving !

[jetmec]

@vet thanks for serving as myself and peterbfly did as well.

[G-Man]

scientifically all whitetail deer ar esupose to be 8 pts. they grow bigger just as you develop muscles as you grow a 12 year old kid is like a 1.5 year old buck. 2.5 is like a 16 year old ,3.5 22year old . 4.5 is like a late 20's early 30's adult. A lot of breeding is done by 1.5 yearolds, and as the bucks get older less is done by the respective age classes. it is not nessary to have mature deer in the herd for rproductive purposes. As for the number of deer it is irrelevant, how many hunters do you have per square mile? a large take will hurt more than ar's can help as you will highgrade the herd quickly. the giant 4pts and 6pts in my area are proof of that..untouchable by 4 pt a side. my area 640 acres has a buck take of almost 12 per square mile. every 8 and better is shot. leaving inferior genetic less and 7pts remain to grow old. You are much better off learning to judge a deer's age on the hoof try to shoot 4.5 year olds regardless of horn size. that is the main reason i am against mandatory ar's in ny. we did our volentarily and took us several more years to straighten it back out. qdm is not ar's it is an entire method of habitat and deer/ non game management. Stop thinking of ar's as the salvation open your eyes and look at the whole picture!!!

[sampotter]

www.acsl-pa.org

If you care to read about how the Pa. deer herd in the Northcentral part of the Commonwealth went down the tubes, check out this link. It seems pretty irrefutable.

Honestly this site and its content are a biased opinion piece. Every deer population map I can find of PA shows as many or more deer per square mile than nearly all of NY. Yes, there may be less than half the deer in PA there were before Alt came along but there were 60-100/square mile.

[nyantler]

Honestly this site and its content are a biased opinion piece. Every deer population map I can find of PA shows as many or more deer per square mile than nearly all of NY. Yes, there may be less than half the deer in PA there were before Alt came along but there were 60-100/square mile.

I agree Sam that the drastic drop in population has finally brought the herd to a managable level... sometime hunters don't realize that what hunters want and whats best for the deer are two different things.

[13BVET]

Doesnt matter, you are all fill the tag hunters and I am a horn hunter. We will never see eye to eye. Lets leave it at that. Every person I hunt with agrees with me, so we will continue to pass the young bucks.

Vet-My shooting of does has absolutely nothing to do with age class. It was to prove that not all Pro-AR people are against shooting does, which was mentioned in a previous post. Around in circles we go... Im done with this nonsense. You all have your minds made up. If you ever come fish down on Long Island, let me know how you like throwing back almost every fish that you catch because of the regulations.

Well, well, well. It would appear that jetmec, and peterbfly are definitely one and the same. After all, the doe comment was made in reference to jetmec, NOT peterbfly. How is that, jetmec-or peterbfly?

[13BVET]

Thanks for the support guys!

[jetmec]

We are two dif people. We just happen to share the same views.

[Pygmy]

We are two dif people. We just happen to share the same views.

Yeah..jetflap is peterbeater's evil twin...

And religiouscop is thier boy wonder ..!!..

[13BVET]

I'm not going to debate that, one way or another. No one will knock you for your views on here (we will disagree, of course, if it's not our style), but in a civilized manner. Debating is one thing-demonizing everyone who disagrees, is another. There are actually a great bunch of guys-and ladies, on this forum.

Jetmec, there is no questioning that your approach was ill willed, at best. Yes-there are good people on here, but no one on here is just going to lie down and take it. Simply put, no offense, no one is intimidated by you here. You need to discuss things more rationally.

Edited September 29, 2012 by 13BVET

[jetmec]

I hear ya. Not trying to demoralize or intimidate anyone. It's a tough subject that people have strong views on. What I choose is not necessarily what the next guy does. Simple as that.

[13BVET]

So true.

[crappyice]

Heres my beef with ar's..i never shot any deer with a bow yet (3 seasons). I've practiced, scouted, spent a bunch of money to equip myself and everything else. I want to harvest a deer...any deer! Is that selfish? Maybe. Is that right for the health of the deer population? Prob not. Would I hunt in an area with AR's knowing that I may need to pass on a deer that presents itself to me? NOT A CHANCE!

[Buckstopshere]

Sam: It's apparent that you do not hunt Northcentral Pa. or you would not make a comment like that.

NY antler: "Manageable level." What a crock. We are talking one buck per square mile! Do the math. The Pa. game commission has calculated take numbers after the season...like NY. We know the square miles of the WMUs. Divide the take into the square miles...

maps...

Are you talking about that old, un-updated QDM map? That's laughable.

You guys have your minds made up. And why believe me and the organized Pa. sportsmen and John Eveland.

You drank the Koolaid. There is no changing your minds. Bon appetit.

[sampotter]

Are there less deer in NC-PA than in the adironacks?

[WNYBuckHunter]

if you cant properly identify your target dont shoot. that is the responsible thing to do.

As i said, ears can hide spikes. Nothing irresponsible about a hunter not seeing spikes behind ears.

[WNYBuckHunter]

How would you say I make myself look like a dummy? Its really a very simple concept. If I let a 1.5 YO buck walk, he will grow to be a bigger 2.5 YO buck Right? So if he and all the other young bucks which are normally shot make it, now you have almost 100% more bucks in the area. So if only one or two of the 2.5 YO bucks make it through hunting season, now we are talking a very smart 3.5 YO buck or two. Thats all I want. A 3.5 YO buck in my area might score 115-120 if im lucky and I am satisfied with that. Im not expecting a 180 class 12 pointer because we dont have the genetics, but the overall quality should definitely improve. What is dumb about that?????????????????????????????????

Because you sit here and act like AR is a huge management tool, and its QDM, etc. It just isnt, its only a small part of real QDM. Then you make alot of completely unfounded accusations, generalizations and such. You just dont have the education about QDM that you try and profess. Hell, I have just started learning about real QDM in recent years and I dont know half of the intracacies, but I can tell that you are very misinformed.

[bubba]

Doesnt matter, you are all fill the tag hunters and I am a horn hunter. We will never see eye to eye. Lets leave it at that. Every person I hunt with agrees with me, so we will continue to pass the young bucks.

Vet-My shooting of does has absolutely nothing to do with age class. It was to prove that not all Pro-AR people are against shooting does, which was mentioned in a previous post. Around in circles we go... Im done with this nonsense. You all have your minds made up. If you ever come fish down on Long Island, let me know how you like throwing back almost every fish that you catch because of the regulations.

Doesnt matter, you are all fill the tag hunters and I am a horn hunter. We will never see eye to eye. Lets leave it at that. Every person I hunt with agrees with me, so we will continue to pass the young bucks.

Vet-My shooting of does has absolutely nothing to do with age class. It was to prove that not all Pro-AR people are against shooting does, which was mentioned in a previous post. Around in circles we go... Im done with this nonsense. You all have your minds made up. If you ever come fish down on Long Island, let me know how you like throwing back almost every fish that you catch because of the regulations.

If you are a horn hunter, then you are not hunting deer. See it is simple. Deer have antlers, not horns. Horns are permanent and antlers fall off every year and a new set is grown.Cows have horns, and would hope you would know the difference. If deer had horns, in your world none would ever be shot. They would have spikes for life. I thought an expert such as yourself would know this.

[PETERBFLY]

OK Bubba, thanks for clearing that up for me. Boy have I had it wrong this whole time. I always thought that cows had antlers and bulls were the ones who gave the milk too, but now I know the truth.

My man Mr. Vet, I read a comment you posted regarding the AR hunters being against taking does and I wanted to point out that I am a Pro-AR hunter who is totally for harvesting does. Do me a favor and talk to Sits in Stands about the benefit of the Restriction.

One more thing I wanted to add: I know Illinois doesnt have AR's in place, but when I hunted there (just one time), I saw 60% more bucks then does and lots of nice bucks too. They had a very healthy deer Population and Harvested 2-3 does for every buck that was taken. Know why? Because they wanted to keep the Buck to Doe Ratio the same or more to keep the competition for Breeding rights and allow the more Dominant bucks to do most if not all of it. Ask Jet about the area he skydives in which is an AR unit. Ask him te quality of bucks he sees there compared to what it use to be. Sits in Stands will also agree. Im done going in Circles. Think im getting booted off this site anyway. Happy Hunting!

[wdswtr]

If you ever come fish down on Long Island, let me know how you like throwing back almost every fish that you catch because of the regulations.

Okay I have a legit question for you. You are pro AR you preach this quite a bit. Heres where Im stumped. Please enlighten me on this one. You are upset about having to throw young small fish back and think you should keep whatever you want by the sounds of it as this is the second time you brought this up. You obviously do not like the regulations on the size and age of fish that are in place right? Well that very same feeling you have towards you disagreeing with these regulations because you cant keep what you want to keep is the exact same thing alot of hunters are feeling about your Pro AR stance and more regulations that are not wanted and losing the choice to harvest the deer they want that is legal. I find this quite odd. How do you think you make the catch and release guys and tournament fishing guys feels when you make such remarks? I tournament fished for a statewide organization for a few years and I can tell you it was common place for your feelings about AR, but in a fishery point of view. So I say trade shoes here for a moment and the way you feel about those fish and you not being able to capitalize on any one you want is exactly the same way alot of hunters feel about your stance on AR. Give it some thought you might see where and why this subject is so passionate on both sides.

Edited September 30, 2012 by wdswtr

[Buckstopshere]

IN Pa. Unit 2G, the southern portions of McKean, Potter, Tioga and Elk county is comprised of 4,250 square miles. There was an estimated 6,500 bucks killed there during the 2011 season, dropping from an estimated 6,700 in 2010. That gives that area a buck index of 1.57, lower than some Units in the general Adirondack Region.

IN Pa. North of Unit 2G is 3A. It butts up against the border of New York state with its northern border, swings over past Rt. 15 south of Elmira, NY, crosses it and and runs 105 miles west to Bradford, Pa., then drops down to Lantz Corners, comprising, 2100 square miles. If 3,300 bucks were killed there last year, the computation would be that the buck index is exactly the same as in 2G, 1.57.

One would be hard-pressed to find any other heavily wooded and rolling hills and farming areas in the Northeastern US with such a low density of antlered bucks per square mile. Coupled with that, the future is even worse!

The doe kill last season in North central Pa. was out of control (in an emotional sense!) And the PGC upped the antlerless permits in 2G for the 2012 season! Upping the number to 33,000 from 23,000. Unit 3A remained the same at 26,000. This is criminally insane.

Of course when comparing to a vast region like the Adirondacks is not quite statistically accurate because though the Adirondacks has been considered as having a low deer density due to it's extreme historic winter kills and the resultant management mandates, the "'daks" contains units that vary in deer density from 1.8 bucks per square mile in Unit 6C to .04 in 5C.

My point is...with an admitted bit of hypebole, if Northcentral Pa.'s deer population is in the same ball park as the Adirondacks, it is ludicrous and the worst mismanagement of nature, bending over to the special interests of big business since the use of DDT and Aldrin in the 1960s and 1970s.

[sampotter]

Wouldn't the bucks killed per square mile and actual buck population per square mile be 2 totally different #s? If there are a little over 1.5 bucks killed per square mile in the units mentioned I would have to believe there were at least the same # of bucks not killed..? What are the actual deer populations per square mile in those units?

[Buckstopshere]

Yes, you are right, they are two statistical computations.

However, one is known (the take is...well, at least it is statistically verified and is calculated using the reporting figure and then the process is verified by an acounting entity that has a reputation and certification in the statistial verification business...if you noted a bit of a sarcastic tone there, you were right.) The other will never be known. That's right, we will never be able to pin down the population of deer in a specific area...for a number of reasons.

I know, everyone wants to know exactly how many deer are out there at a given time, but there are some real problems in even expecting an answer to the question.

All the deer check stations, reporting systems, infrared fly overs, deer poop counts (don't laugh, that's what they do in Texas) can never tell us how many deer are out there.

And really, knowing the exact actual number at any point in time is not as important as having a yardstick to measure the trend...and that is what the buck index or kill is all about. I know, it is a hard thing to get your mind around.

Who can say how many deer are actually out there in any given place in time? Nobody...and nobody ever will.

There has always been this hew and cry about knowing the exact number of deer at any specific time...and then we could set accurate tag allocations. But that concept is like a dog chasing his tail...

We may know the number of deer that survive the hunting season on our property, but how many of those will succumb to natural causes? Then there is the fawn drop...was it a good one? How many deer are on our land in February, May (does the deer population double?...and then come November? The actual number is constanting changing...it tells us nothing...so what we need is a statistical yardstick...something to tell us what the population is doing.

That's the buck index. My gut is that there is something fishy when the buck index in Pa.'s 3A and 2G are exactly the same...something is wrong and maybe worse than it appears! When one delves in the Pa. reporting rates, it is a tremendously low percent...like 25%. New York uses fluctuating percent, usually around 65%.

The "fly in the ointment" is the reporting rate percentage and how that is calculated.