Whats so hard about passing yearling bucks?

[SilentStalker]

I've passed smaller bucks and eaten tags because of it. I'm fine with that. I've also shot spikes and smaller bucks (1.5 and under) because it is what I wanted and needed at the time. I am very good friends with a 10 year QDM practicer and he has worked very hard and has been successful at bringing his bucks to a very respectable level. I commend him for that.

That being said, I think its sad that horns have begun to consume so many hunters and outway the overall picture of enjoying time afield. I honestly do not believe that the sole purpose and individual's reason for practicing QDM is to create an overall healthier herd over that of creating monster bucks.

I do believe QDM does create a healthier herd where applicable, but I feel the QDM practicers main objective is to shoot large racked bucks, not mature deer. IE - NYanlter, you say you want to shoot mature deer but have passed a mature deer because he had broken horns. You go on to say it wont hurt the age structure. Ok I get that, but if you're passing mature deer that have broken horns, why even hunt. It kind of proves my point that QDM guys want horns over anything else. 

Now when I say applicable I mean this...I hutn in Lewis Coutny alot in the western ADK's where there are not a lot of deer plain and simple. One of the bordering clubs has been practicing QDM for over five years with a biologist and all. They have been killing over 20 doe a year in this time based upon the biologist's suggestion. However, they have been seeing less and less bucks every year and also obviously less does. 20 doe is overkill in this area and it has begun to affect the surrounding clubs unfortunately. I could understand 5-10 doe but 20 is just too much. I will also add they havent shot any more or less larger bucks than before QDM.

[nyantler]

Why even hunt?... because the hunt isn't about just taking deer for me... I like being selective and just because i pass on one mature buck doesn't mean I won't have an opportunity for another. I agree that QDM for some guys means bigger bucks for them to shoot. But i don't see what the problem with wanting bigger bucks around. If faced with the opportunity of having 2 bucks in front of them, one small and one very large, I promise you that all hunters will opt for the big buck every time.  I have filled my doe tags every year with my muzzleloader, thats another reason to hunt. I put one in my freezer and donate the other to the venison drive. There are a lot of things that concern me with some of the QDM programs guys have developed on their own.. but the general concept of QDM i think is a good idea. It's a shame that all the guys that have reservations about QDM are stuck on the whole antler thing.

[SilentStalker]

But if he had the horns that were up to snuff, you would have shot...You chose to be selective with the 6.5 250# because he lacked the horns that would have made you happy. This is what I'm getting from the response. Would you rather shoot a 2.5 big tall 8 or 10 that you had initially thought was 3.5 or the big old bruiser who is 6.5 yo.? 

Not trying to start another argument on the thread, but if QDM's sole purpose was to create more mature deer for harvest, dont you think a  NY 6.5 250# would fit the mold and should be harvested, regardless of horns?

[nyantler]

QDM's purpose is not to creat more mature bucks to kill.. that is just a by-product of the program. Me passing on the broken antlered buck make no difference it how the program works. So yes I would pass... the following year he might make some other hunter very happy. I will be the first to say that I like the bigger antlers better, because I just like bigger antlers. My standards are very high so unless there is a freak 2.5 year old walking around out there I'm pretty certain I'm not gonna kill one.

[SilentStalker]

I appreciate your input and that someone finally admitted that some are in QDM for the wrong rerasons if you will. Good luck the remainder of the season NYAntler.

My point was that I just thinks it funny that QDM guys say their main focus is for protection and enhancement the herd. We all know what the main focus is - Some people spend crazy amounts of time on their plots and land, just for the good of the herd? Ca'mon, they want big bucks and a by product of planitng plots and only shooting big bucks is a more healthy herd, but let's all call QDM what it is - a way to get bigger racked bucks to harvest.

[burmjohn]

I'm pretty sure you just totally missed the point there, and that's not what he and others have said for that matter.  QDM isn't just about the racks...

[bart1]

I have only hunted for four years and have only taken one mature doe.  I have no intrest in shooting yearling bucks at all. I have had chances at spikes and buttons and it never even crossed my mind to draw on them. I am just now getting into the different discussions about hunting and have absolutly no idea why anyone would want to shoot yearling bucks unless their family is going hungry. Let them walk and let New York bucks get some age! Just my newbie thoughts.

[nyantler]

Just to clarify... QDM itself by its definition is about maintaining a healthy herd based on the given habitat available to that herd. One part of the program is maintaining a good age structure among the bucks in that herd... passing on younger bucks allows for those buck to get older filling in the age classes to get a good representation of bucks in each age group. This inherantly creates a larger group of bigger and older bucks.. even if thats the only reason that someone is doing QDM on their property it doesn't take away from the fact that the rest of what happens with the program is helping the herd. And again, I see nothing wrong with guys wanting more big bucks to hunt.

[fasteddie]

They have been practicing QDM in Italy Valley between Naples and Potter for over 3 years now . Several property owners have joined . They are seeing more and more larger bucks since they started the program . One of my sons has property there that is adjacent to State Land . I don't deer hunt there since it is too hilly and slippery for me .

[Doc]

I have only hunted for four years and have only taken one mature doe.  I have no intrest in shooting yearling bucks at all. I have had chances at spikes and buttons and it never even crossed my mind to draw on them. I am just now getting into the different discussions about hunting and have absolutly no idea why anyone would want to shoot yearling bucks unless their family is going hungry. Let them walk and let New York bucks get some age! Just my newbie thoughts.

bart- I'm just guessing, but I suspect if you hunted in areas where a yearling buck is about the best that you can hope to see, coupled with an area that offers few or no antlerless permits, you might see it a bit differently.

At any rate, whether that would really change your thinking or not, it's always a good thing to understand that not everyone hunts in areas that offer the choices that you or I obviously have.

[nyantler]

Doc, The only reason a yearling buck would be all that was available is because thats all that is shot each year, leaving no bucks to get any older. And yes you are just guessing... plus you always have the option of hunting somewhere else.. there is State land all over NY... funny too...even in places that have anterless permits...

[SilentStalker]

I'm pretty sure you just totally missed the point there, and that's not what he and others have said for that matter.  QDM isn't just about the racks...

I didnt miss the point. But no one can tell me yourself included that you would spend the countless hours and money on planting food plots and doing all the other QDM stuff for the betterment of the "herd" first and foremost. I have no problem with guys shooting only mature deer. In fact I commend them for their patience and skills. I'm just saying QDM's unstated goal is large racked bucks. With that comes letting lit's walk and growing a more stable herd with all age classes represented as NYAntler stated. If we all wanted a better deer herd for the sake of the deer, why is there starving people in the country? Dont we care about our human counterparts more than the deer herd and we'd all be giving all our time to pantries etc. rather than the deer herd and its stability.? I'm not trying to get crazy with my point but I feel it has some merit. If you want to shoot the little ones, more power to you, if you want to pass on them, also more power to you. I just thibnk QDM disguises itself at its ultimate goal for the practicer.

[nyantler]

QDM doesn't disguise anything... the model is written as its written ... some people who practice it might have an alterior motive.. but I still can not understand what the problem is with wanting more big bucks. That seems to be the problem that guys have with the program is that it produces bigger bucks... so what?

[TheHunter]

but I still can not understand what the problem is with wanting more big bucks.

Because they wish to mow the woods down shooting anything thats brown with out regard to the future of our herd.

[SilentStalker]

and its not that I have a problem with it but the whole bigger is better mentality has hurt hunting in general as far as I'm concerned. And QDMA has played a part in that whether the prgram intended to or not. The way I look at it is - way back before my time, the guys hunted for the brotherhood and to put food on the table for the family. Today its to "create a healthier herd" and only shoot big bucks or mature does. Where in that is the brotherhood? Today, people fight over who got the killing shot on a  fricken basket 6 rather than just splitting the deer and saying WE got it together. The obsession that QDMA created over horns - err - i mean creating a healthier herd hurts more than it helps. IMHO.

[nyantler]

Stalker.. come on now.. we all know that bigger is better... EVERY hunter, bar none, wants to take a trophy whitetail buck.. and if they tell you different they are lying...the want of a big buck has not hurt hunting at all. Imagine having just as good of a chance to kill a big buck as a small buck every year. The reason hunters shoot small bucks is because they are the easiest to kill... there are way more of them than there are big bucks. And rather than wait around for a big boy to show up they shoot the small one. If the age structure was at least 5 age classes deep there would be as many big bucks as there are small. Knowing that there are big bucks to be had i am sure most hunters might wait one out.

[JPP]

I think people have become obsessed with trophy bucks. Lets face it, an industry has grown from this. Scents, soaps, clothes, calls, videos, magazines, books, web sites, TV shows, seminars, weapons, etc.

Not every hunter has the same skill set.

Not every hunter hunts prime land where you can see big bucks every season.

Not every hunter has the time or money to put in to growing food plots, or has the time to be "selective" during season.

Hunting is supposed to be fun and an enjoyable experience.

Every hunter has the right to shoot whatever legal deer comes by their stand, and nobody has the right to criticize or belittle that hunter for doing so.

[Doc]

Hunting is supposed to be fun and an enjoyable experience.

Well, at least that's the way I and a some others view hunting ..... a fun and enjoyable experience ...... recreation.

I know some people go at it like it's their livelihood or some measure of their worth. They seem to lose all perspective .... at least in my view they do. I guess each person has to get out of hunting whatever they need to get.

[nyantler]

Of all the trophy bucks in the record book.. very few of them come with stories of skill.. in fact, 90% are just plain lucky hunters... You don't need prime land to grow trophy deer... i know where there are huge bucks in residential areas where there is no hunting allowed, not exactly wild habitat... food plots are not necessary in the management process unless there isn't enough other food sources for the deer. And I know a dairy farmer that hunts the adirondacks only gets about 3 days a year to hunt and has taken a trophy buck the last 11 out of 12 years. He is very selective. I have been hunting bigger bucks for 15 years and have just as much or more fun as ever hunting. And I am not belittling or criticizing anyone for how they hunt.. i will admit that I have criticized their way of trying to debunk the whole management idea.

[CNYScott]

I say to each his own.  On our property we target six points minimum as long as spread is beyond the ear tips; we have one lineage group that are genetically inferior with bucks with feeble 4-point racks that we cull out for meat.  I'm not inclined to force my practice on others any more than I'd expect others to choose for me.

[nyantler]

Educationg people is not forcing... having an opinion is not forcing... the fact that I personally can see no good reason for killing a small buck doesn't mean that I have a problem with hunters killing what's legal to kill. I find that the guys against management put down the guys that practice AR or QDM way more than the other way around. They even call us trophy hunters...oooooooooooooo .. likes thats something bad..lol

[CNYScott]

We're largely in agreement, Joe.  I passed on four young bucks Monday morning before I bagged a 8-point / 180 pounder at 3:05 p.m.  I agree on the direction of the criticism.  Don't see much sense in killing obviously young deer so I choose not to.  Hardly makes Neva trophy hunter however!

[nyantler]

Truth is all the guys on here are pretty cool... we have some very different opinions about things, but thats what makes the topics intersting and keeps us all coming back

[SilentStalker]

I'm not trying to argue with you guys either. Just providing my opinion. Joe, it seems like you have good intentions as far as QDM is concerned and others on here as well. It seems that I have just seen the negative side/impact QDM has on hunter mentality rather than the folks who do it for more than just big racks. But as has been stated time and time again on this thread, to each his own. Good luck out there the rest of the season guys!

[nonnie]

just shot one last month yots have ben eatting the carcus got 47 lbs of meet nice 3 pointer