Let's throw some gas on the fire - MI Report

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Of course bad hits are gonna happen, i never said a crossbow would do away with them. What i said was it will help those that dont practice as they should have a better chance at making a good shot. In other words, it helps with consistency.

Oh i agree with your post. Up there a few post someone says they should not allow xbows because someone wont practice and make sloppy shots/Hunters.....We have them in every season we have so xbow will be no different. Someone against xbows has no true reason not to want them unless they think it will harm them in some way. Like take their woods, Their stand,THEIR DEER!

[SteveB]

Wow - 4Seasons and I agree!

[sampotter]

Ah, well this feels like a religion or politics discussion. I'm pretty sure neither side is going to sway the other.

[Chevy]

Good info Phade- exactly what I've been saying all along. The only able-bodied hunters in NY that want crossbows for archery season in NY are the gun hunters that don't want earn the right to bowhunt by putting in the time.

BINGO! The main push is gun hunters looking to use their xguns during archery season. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing a push for full inclusion.

If the xgun arguments had any merit they would be pushing inclusion during archery season JUST for the elderly who can no longer bow hunt and the disabled. (note:I said elderly who can no longer bowhunt. not the elderly who never had an archery license and just want to take advantage).

[sampotter]

Geez Chevy, where have you been the last 2 days?

[SteveB]

Ah, well this feels like a religion or politics discussion. I'm pretty sure neither side is going to sway the other.

Actually Sam, I was solid with your position for years up till about 4 years ago.

Hope for you yet.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Oh i agree with your post. Up there a few post someone says they should not allow xbows because someone wont practice and make sloppy shots/Hunters.....We have them in every season we have so xbow will be no different. Someone against xbows has no true reason not to want them unless they think it will harm them in some way. Like take their woods, Their stand,THEIR DEER!

This is something you and I agree on completely.

[WNYBuckHunter]

If the xgun arguments had any merit they would be pushing inclusion during archery season JUST for the elderly who can no longer bow hunt and the disabled. (note:I said elderly who can no longer bowhunt. not the elderly who never had an archery license and just want to take advantage).

See this is where your opinion is wrong, because you imply it as a fact, and as far as a fact goes, youre wrong, 100% wrong. In my opinion, and many others, theres no reason to make the already complicated system, more complicated. Half the reason is because it is very tough to get the disabled permits, in fact, the number of disabled permits out there is so low, you might say they almost never hand one out. the second half of the reason is that I just plain dont care why someone wants to use a crossbow.

[Chevy]

Geez Chevy, where have you been the last 2 days?

Yeah, the Democrats and anti gun lobby have worn me down. Not sure I can deal with this xgun radical logic for long.

Besides, you were doing so well.........

[covert]

BINGO! The main push is gun hunters looking to use their xguns during archery season. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing a push for full inclusion.

If the xgun arguments had any merit they would be pushing inclusion during archery season JUST for the elderly who can no longer bow hunt and the disabled. (note:I said elderly who can no longer bowhunt. not the elderly who never had an archery license and just want to take advantage).

What are they "taking advantage" of? Are they hunting on your property? If not then who are you to say they are "taking advantage" of anything?

[Chevy]

What are they "taking advantage" of? Are they hunting on your property? If not then who are you to say they are "taking advantage" of anything?

taking advantage of the archery season without the need of using that pesky archery equipment.

[covert]

As long as they're dropping their dime too and not hunting where they don't have permission to be I couldn't care less.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

taking advantage of the archery season without the need of using that pesky archery equipment.

One could argue that one! Still has shaft,Broadhead and string! Comes back to someones choice on AR. I want AR because I want more and bigger bucks in the areas i hunt. Kind of makes me only worried about myself- Even though everyone i know and hunt with wants the same-. Someone that does not want xbows in THEIR bow season is right in the same boat as you are taking away their choice!

[Chevy]

As long as they're dropping their dime too and not hunting where they don't have permission to be I couldn't care less.

Guess you don't hunt on state land. good for you and screw eveyone else. I am familiar with that attitude.

[sampotter]

If you showed a progression of hunting implements by degree of difficulty from highest to lowest it would look something like this:

rock>knife>spear>atlatl>longbow>recurve bow>compound bow>crossbow/primitive ML>smoothbore shotgun>inlineML/rifled shotgun>rifle

As can probably be figured out from my previous posts; my contention is not with the crossbow per se, more with the baggage that comes with it.

If crossbows are pushed into bow season why not shorten the gun season and implement a 1 buck rule like Ohio?

[covert]

Guess you don't hunt on state land. good for you and screw eveyone else. I am familiar with that attitude.

Actually I do most of my hunting out in the middle of the Adirondack Park. I am just willing to go far enough out that I rarely encounter another person. When I do hunt around home I really don't care what anyone on the other side of the fence is hunting with as long as they're playing by the rules.

It's not "screw everyone else" so much as "live and let live". I personally have no interest in lugging a crossbow around the woods as my '86 compound is heavy enough, but if someone else wants to, more power to them.

Edited February 24, 2013 by covert

[Chevy]

Covert, I can appreciate how you miss the implications of allowing the xgun in archery season if you hunt the vast ADK park.

Hunting in the southern zone is nothing like the northern zone. Much higher pressure in the southern zone.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

If you showed a progression of hunting implements by degree of difficulty from highest to lowest it would look something like this:

rock>knife>spear>atlatl>longbow>recurve bow>compound bow>crossbow/primitive ML>smoothbore shotgun>inlineML/rifled shotgun>rifle

As can probably be figured out from my previous posts; my contention is not with the crossbow per se, more with the baggage that comes with it.

If crossbows are pushed into bow season why not shorten the gun season and implement a 1 buck rule like Ohio?

Yeah Buddy...A record, I agree again. Ar,Shorter Season,1 Buck and no guns during the rut and you must have every deer taken brought to a check station along with sending back unused tags. That way some would have to verse their wives real good before they got to the check station and a few question were asked!!!

That i sure could live with! Where do i sign up.

[WNYBuckHunter]

If you showed a progression of hunting implements by degree of difficulty from highest to lowest it would look something like this:

rock>knife>spear>atlatl>longbow>recurve bow>compound bow>crossbow/primitive ML>smoothbore shotgun>inlineML/rifled shotgun>rifle

As can probably be figured out from my previous posts; my contention is not with the crossbow per se, more with the baggage that comes with it.

If crossbows are pushed into bow season why not shorten the gun season and implement a 1 buck rule like Ohio?

Id be all for both of those, but it still doesnt take away the fact that crossbows are just bows. Same killing method, same effective range. No matter how much they look like guns due to the stock, they are effectively no more similar.

[nyantler]

Joe- if the crossbow has no advantages over a vertical bow then why do people want to include it in bow season and why hasn't it always been a legal implement? Where does the line get drawn? Why not have a general "deer" season where anyone can use their weapon of choice be it poison dart or scud missile?

If I were to agree that being against crossbows during bow season is motivated by selfishness then you have to agree that being for them is motivated by greediness.

I guess you can overthink the whole thing as deeply as you want if it is that bothersome to you... my point is that I personally don't understand why anyone would care what someone else is using to kill deer as long as there isn't a safety issue that concerns me.. Killing deer is not rocket science... and the harder it is the more I enjoy it.. just my opinion.. I understand that some of you do feel threatened somehow by other hunters and how they are hunting or what they are hunting with... I personally wouldn't have any problem with a general deer season.. weapon of choice.. I sometimes grab the recurve during gun season just to change things up for a day... but that's just me.. I know the things that concern guys about crossbows does exist, I just for the life of me don't get why they concern them... nothing personal... I just really can't wrap myself around the idea of being concerned about how other hunters choose to do their hunting. It doesn't affect me unless I let it. FYI.. poison dart would be fun... scud missile too easy.

[Doc]

My fear is that just like the compound bow has successfully served as the precedent for the crossbow, the crossbow will serve as a precedent for the next generation of bow season dilution.

I have followed the discussion for a few years now, and I hear all kinds of descriptions and historical references and attempts at trying to compare the various components and all kinds of stretching and reaching and contortions aimed at justifying the inclusion of crossbows. We tend to try to justify the introduction of crossbows by applying all kinds of criteria that most likely aren't even relevant. Long lengthy discussions on the relative challenge of shooting each weapon all wasting time and energy. I hear comments that the crossbow will be the salvation of hunting by adding untold numbers of hunters to the ranks of bowhunters and filling te woods, and then the same people tell us that the introduction of the crossbow into bow season will be transparent to bow hunters. And on and on it all goes. The reality of the whole argument really boils down to one fact which is not arguable, which is that there are people who want to use the normal time slots of bow hunters who simply don't want to go through the rigors of practice and mental and physical disciplines that bow hunting requires. The whole notion that bow season is a time of the hunting year of putting maximum challenge into deer hunting has been trashed years ago. This idea of diluting the challenge of bow season is not even a new or unique need of hunters as witnessed by the advent and popularity of the compound. So naturally, the crossbow was the next logical change to bow season to help dissolve some more of that "difficulty & challenge". Also, gun hunters already question why bowhunters need special seasons and why we unfairly get the first crack at the deer, and why it is fair that we with our evolving weapons are allowed to thin the herd of the best trophy animals before they even get a chance. Are they right with those criticisms? .... It doesn't even matter. What matters is that they have this perception and they are the vocal majority and every year as we add to the bowhunting arsenal, their arguments get closer and closer to the truth.

But one thing this crossbow campaign has shown very clearly is that if someone wants the season of a minority bad enough, they really don't need any excuses. With the proper preparation and backing, they simply take whatever they want. Oh there may be some convincing and some manufacturer's bank-rolling, but the majority of hunters are not bowhunters and that majority becomes very easy allies when it involves bowhunter's seasons or their perceived advantages.

It all worked for compound bows, it will work for crossbows and at some point off in the future, it will work for the next generations of weapons inclusions. At some point we will be wondering exactly why we call it bow season. That is what the old-timers of the 70's saw back when the compound was jammed into bow season. It was an argument they used. They saw the power of precedent and by golly it turns out they were exactly right. The pursuit of easy hunting takes some strange but very predictable turns, and the advancement of that need for easier hunting won't be stopping with the crossbow.

So yeah, as a bow hunter who has been involved in the sport for more than 53 years, I would like to see bow hunters draw a line in the sand and claim, "this far and no further". But then, I am a dying breed of hunter that definitely is in a tiny minority today. I have gotten out of bowhunting what I wanted, and I suppose it is up to the next generation to shape the future for themselves.

[nyantler]

"I am a dying breed of hunter that definitely is in a tiny minority today. I have gotten out of bowhunting what I wanted, and I suppose it is up to the next generation to shape the future for themselves."

That goes double for me... I'm sure I felt differently 20-30 year ago

[covert]

My issue with the argument of things like "the only people who want them are the ones who don't want to practice" is that there are plenty of people who use vertical bows who practice very little. Unless they make a rule where you need to bring your bow and meet some sort of accuracy standard every year before you can pick up your bow license, I'd prefer the ones that can't be bothered to practice use something that is easier to shoot accurately.

[erussell]

Im all for 5 tags a rifle and 4 weeks to fill um. No muss no fuss.

[Doc]

My issue with the argument of things like "the only people who want them are the ones who don't want to practice" is that there are plenty of people who use vertical bows who practice very little. Unless they make a rule where you need to bring your bow and meet some sort of accuracy standard every year before you can pick up your bow license, I'd prefer the ones that can't be bothered to practice use something that is easier to shoot accurately.

Taken to its natural conclusion, one could justify firearms which would completely satisfy the last sentence of your reply.

Look, I'm not arguing that every bowhunter does everything exactly as they should. I'm simply explaining that crossbow proponents are driven by an easy entry into a season that deer hunters view as having some very advantageous features.

Let's face it, a bow can be a difficult thing to master. For some more so than others. For that reason, there are certain benefits that have allowed the sport to be practical. We pretty much get out there at a time when things are pretty calm in the woods so that we can use patterning strategies. We have "buck or doe" harvest choices. We have ever-lengthening seasons. And we have a pretty prime part of the year in terms of rutting activity. Most of this was granted because it was recognized that bowhunters are taking on a more challenging form of deer hunting. So naturally, anyone who can figure easier and easier ways to eliminate the need for practice and rigorous form and technique disciplines would love to be able to use less demanding weapons in bow seasons. I understand that. Get all these goodies without the problems of the weapon that made them all necessary.

But there is an additional catch. These advantages granted to bowhunters are looked at jealously by gun hunters who are beginning to openly express animosity and a desire to be able to have all those bow season advantages without having to go through the rigors and disciplines that bowhunting requires. So it is natural that there would be an appeal for something that gives them all those advantages with a weapon that requires the same simplicity of use as the firearms that they are used to using. Hence the crossbow inclusion into bowhunting seasons with all the benefits that bowhunters have been given, without the need or challenge of mastering that confounded bow. Instead of learning the use of the weapon that the season was designed for, simply replace the weapon. The only question there is exactly when will that mentality cease. Where will the line finally be drawn, or will it be drawn at all? Some of us worry that it won't be drawn. Others celebrate that.