Let's throw some gas on the fire - MI Report

[WNYBuckHunter]

Nah, directed at rossi. He's complaining about state legislatures, writer's orgs...councils, etc.

Seems like nothing is right unless they fall lock step with him/his ideas.

But, I will say, they put those numbers in their annual deer report, which is their most prestiguous release. That says something. It's akin to a publicly traded company putting numbers in their Form 10-K.

Gottcha. I was trying to figure out how I had a problem with authority lol.

I and everyone else there heard first hand how they figured out the numbers on that particular subject. I think it was repeated twice actually. Fuzzy logic if you ask me. Overall the whitetail report contains a ton of good info, and its a fun read. I would just give a bit more credence in the DEC license sales numbers over a long period of time. Even when you figure in lifetime sales, its still an overall decline, with just the 1 year bubble in 09-10. After all, the DEC system is a database of all sales, how could thise numbers be off?

[Doc]

It wa my homage to Doc.

However, with all the attention being given to spelling and grammar lately, I have to point out an error in spelling. The word is spelled: "Kwitcherbitchin". Damn .... my memory is getting so bad, I can't even remember the subject that created that word, but it does still show up periodically .... lol.

[phade]

Gottcha. I was trying to figure out how I had a problem with authority lol.

I and everyone else there heard first hand how they figured out the numbers on that particular subject. I think it was repeated twice actually. Fuzzy logic if you ask me. Overall the whitetail report contains a ton of good info, and its a fun read. I would just give a bit more credence in the DEC license sales numbers over a long period of time. Even when you figure in lifetime sales, its still an overall decline, with just the 1 year bubble in 09-10. After all, the DEC system is a database of all sales, how could thise numbers be off?

It's not a DEC system...its DECALS, which is owned/created/ran by a company based out of Arizona or some state in the SW. It's also the same system that lets people put in to draw DMPs in units where there are none available and numerous other flaws that cannot be fixed in the current environment. DEC contracts for that system, and they will outright tell you it is not accurate and it's pretty much a "run what you brung" because of the amount of money, development, etc. put into it. In fact, many of the DEC personnel I spoke with about DECALS when the DMP app flaw came to light (I broke the story), I had more regional and central people tell me things about that system that I couldn't print.

 

They pretty much have nil control over it and it's poorly ran/contracted. When the DEC states this:

 

"License sales figures provide a good but not exact reflection of deer hunter numbers."

 

You know they have issues with data integrity when they preface numbers with such a statement. Face it the DEC and the QDMA's numbers are equally poorly contrived. Valuing one over the other when the one you prefer is even prefaced by the agency dissementating it saying the above is just a recipe for being led astray.

 

Would you be comfortable with your bank saying:

 

"Bank account statements provide a good but not exact reflection of money in the account."

 

"Tax returns provide a good but not exact reflection on what is owed or refunded."

 

"Medical test results provide a good but not exact reflection on whether the disease is present."

 

Just think about that for a second, lol.

Edited March 29, 2013 by phade

[Culvercreek hunt club]

so we are just left with observation? Cna anyone that has over a decade of hunting in NY say that based on what they see the hunters numbers are up from what they used to be? Not trying to set anything up, just wondering. I see less pressure in the woods from what it used to be. Less folks in the dinners and quick stop stores than I use to. How about you guys? anyone see an increase?

[phade]

so we are just left with observation? Cna anyone that has over a decade of hunting in NY say that based on what they see the hunters numbers are up from what they used to be? Not trying to set anything up, just wondering. I see less pressure in the woods from what it used to be. Less folks in the dinners and quick stop stores than I use to. How about you guys? anyone see an increase?

I think the diner and gas station observation is slowly becoming less important from an anecdotal POV. Sure there are still bumpkins out there, but the last 10 or so years have been heavy on the scent control movement and also the reduction in large organized deer drives based on smaller parcel size and access.

 

10-15 years ago, we would all meet at the diner, gas up, and do a drive, wearing our hunting gear the whole time. Not so much today.

[Doc]

so we are just left with observation? Cna anyone that has over a decade of hunting in NY say that based on what they see the hunters numbers are up from what they used to be? Not trying to set anything up, just wondering. I see less pressure in the woods from what it used to be. Less folks in the dinners and quick stop stores than I use to. How about you guys? anyone see an increase?

I believe that when it comes to generalized observation, hunters can say things like: in my hunting area since  _____________ (fill in the blank) years ago hunter activity has increased, hunter activity has decreased or hunter activity is about the same as it was. And that may be the only level of info that is really reliable and credible.  But, I suspect that if you took a statewide poll of that sort, the results would be heavily indicating less activity.

 

I don't trust license sales as being any kind of a reliable indicator of hunter activity. That may be a good indicator of good intentions, but it is no indicator of the actual amount of use.

[growalot]

IMO I believe when the DEC changed from a Monday opener to a Saturday opener  things went down hill......The "guys" getting to camps early as a group setting up practicing hanging out...taking the younger kids with them...hey the kids looking at not having to go to school on Monday was enough to peek interest...all that gone....

 

Now having had kids that we got into hunting...who also had lots of other activities...the idea of no Monday school was enough to get them out in the woods bright an early...just enough to get the hook in.

It's to bad that IMO a mistake was made that can't be admitted too and reversed...for I don't believe the change to get more kids involved really worked in the long run and I think the hassel of having to rush from work to get to camps in time has kept the older hunters home as well....

[WNYBuckHunter]

It's not a DEC system...its DECALS, which is owned/created/ran by a company based out of Arizona or some state in the SW. It's also the same system that lets people put in to draw DMPs in units where there are none available and numerous other flaws that cannot be fixed in the current environment. DEC contracts for that system, and they will outright tell you it is not accurate and it's pretty much a "run what you brung" because of the amount of money, development, etc. put into it. In fact, many of the DEC personnel I spoke with about DECALS when the DMP app flaw came to light (I broke the story), I had more regional and central people tell me things about that system that I couldn't print.

 

They pretty much have nil control over it and it's poorly ran/contracted. When the DEC states this:

 

"License sales figures provide a good but not exact reflection of deer hunter numbers."

 

You know they have issues with data integrity when they preface numbers with such a statement. Face it the DEC and the QDMA's numbers are equally poorly contrived. Valuing one over the other when the one you prefer is even prefaced by the agency dissementating it saying the above is just a recipe for being led astray.

 

Would you be comfortable with your bank saying:

 

"Bank account statements provide a good but not exact reflection of money in the account."

 

"Tax returns provide a good but not exact reflection on what is owed or refunded."

 

"Medical test results provide a good but not exact reflection on whether the disease is present."

 

Just think about that for a second, lol.

 

Boy, thats some eye opening info right there, makes me feel much better. You could have just left me in my semi delusional state that the DEC had any clue at all lol.

 

[growalot]

DMP app flaw came to light (I broke the story), I had more regional and central people tell me things about that system that I couldn't print.

You say you broke the story and it's printed...dang.... missed that can you post it?

[phade]

They have as good of a handle as they can given the situation. I can pretty much gurantee they'd blow up DECALS if they could...but it is not happening anytime soon.

 

They literally have almost no control over the data integrity - it's done by Verizon and the company contracted to create and manage it in the SW part of the country. Outsourcing it was a big mistake in this instance because the project was poorly managed from the get-go and now there is no money or resources to fix it or redevelop.

[phade]

You say you broke the story and it's printed...dang.... missed that can you post it?

That dates back to 2005 or 6....not even sure I could find it online any longer, but I can dig around.Don't believe me or something? I speak the truth, lol.

 

Worst part is, it's never been fixed, addressed, or looked at. Their hands are tied to a stupidly large contract for DECALS and have no money or resources to do anything about it.

Edited March 29, 2013 by phade

[phade]

Oh the internetz...dates back to Sept 2005...

 

Albany -- A flaw in the DEC Automated Licensing System (DECALS) is costing some hunters their chance at obtaining a second Deer Management Permit (DMP) for the upcoming season.

The problem stems from an oversight that lets hunters apply for DMPs in areas where they have no chance of getting the permit. Forty-three Wildlife Management Units (WMU) in seven of the nine DEC regions are classified as having no second DMPs available for the 2005 deer season.

John O'Pezio, the lead biologist for the Big Game Section of the DEC and the Division of Fish and Wildlife's representative on the DECALS team, admits "the constraint in the {DECALS} system is less than ideal, but one we hope to fix in the future."

He attributes the error to the DECALS allowing only one classification for a WMU. "The current system does not give us a second option to close a WMU to application for a DMP. Either it is open on both first and second permit selection, or it's closed altogether," said O'Pezio.

O'Pezio conceded that hunters from across the state have already been affected, and that more will be as license sales progress.

Niles Hickey of Caledonia, Livingston County, and a longtime hunter in WMU 9P, applied for his second DMP for that unit which, unknowingly to him, is one of the 43 that do not have second DMPs available for 2005. Hickey was subsequently turned down, and found out about the DECALS flaw just after application. He feels that the DEC is acting too slowly on a problem that should have been apparent from the beginning.

"The state shouldn't lead on hunters in this sort of fashion. We pay good money for our licenses, and it gives the sport a black eye to find out hunters threw away their tags (choices) after the fact," said Hickey.

In addition to the system error, Hickey believes the slow action by the state in addressing the problem is further evidence that the DEC is not handling the management of New York's deer herd efficiently.

"During the off-season, both hunters and the DEC agreed that DMP numbers needed to be reduced, yet we still see farms being handed nuisance or DMAP (Deer Management Assistant Program) permits with little scrutiny," said Hickey. "Add that in with the problem in DECALS, and you've got many concerned hunters who feel like they've been burned one too many times."

In light of the DECALS flaw, the DEC has sent out temporary corrective measures to outlets where licenses can be purchased. They believe this to be the best possible option available right now, according to O'Pezio.

"Agents and clerks in stores and the phone center have been sent notices that ask them to read the list of closed Wildlife Management Units in order to prevent a hunter from applying for areas that have a zero probability," O'Pezio said. "On top of that, we have been monitoring our online sales to alert hunters prior to application for DMPs."

Despite the best efforts of the DEC to limit hunters from losing their chance at a second Deer Management Permit, O'Pezio acknowledges implementation in the field is tough.

"Unfortunately, there will be hunters who apply through DECALS for zero probability units as their second DMP selection; the issue could affect a large number of our hunters for 2005," he said.

Currently, there is no information available that shows exactly how many hunters have applied for zero probability units in the past, or so far for this season's licenses. Hunters who do apply for DMPs in zero chance units are out of luck when it comes to re-applying for a different area. "Once a hunter makes their selections, they have no recourse from that point forward," O'Pezio said.

Even with the corrective actions, O'Pezio feels there is a certain level of responsibility which the hunter has to assume when applying for DMPs.

"The probabilities of Deer Management Permits vary from year to year, and even more so this season. We send out booklets that inform hunters of the odds for each unit before licenses go on sale, and they need to look at the chances for selection," he said.

When asked for a timeline on the correction of the problem, O'Pezio said "the development of DECALS has progressed a bit slower than we have liked, forcing us to put off some enhancements of the system to complete it. There is no question that the issue is high on our radar. I wish I could tell you it will be fixed by next year, but we really do not know at this point."

[phade]

Edit...nevermind its in the story.

Edited March 29, 2013 by phade

[fasteddie]

As for less folks at the gas stations and diners , I would attribute it to hunters wanting to be more "scent free" and not wanting to smell like grease from a restaurant ( unless they are bear hunting ) or pick up odors at a gas station .

 

I am usually in my stand or blind 1/2 hour before it gets light out , so maybe 1 hour before legal shooting . I see many vehicles parked in fields , etc where hunters have gotten to their spots very early . So , I see evidence of an ample amount of hunters out there instead of parked at Restaurants and Gas stations .

 

One of my hunting spots is on Lima Road in Geneseo . I used to see a lot of vehicles parked on Country Club Road but not so many the past few years . We used to get tresspassers coming from that area but nothing in about 3 years .

 

In that area I think the decline is due to the fact that the property has changed ownership and hunters have been denied access to that property . I know of 3 treestands within 50 yards of my SILs property but havn't seen any hunters in them . I usually don't hunt that section as her property doesn't drain and it pretty sloshy back there . I would almost need a boat to get a deer out if there had been much rain but we are going to set up some ladder stands and possibly a permanent stand this year .

 

Uhhhhhh , what was the original topic ? 

[growalot]

Thanks Phade....

 

PS....no I don't play the prove it game...lol....just curious to read what it was all about

 

(ps)

Edited March 29, 2013 by growalot

[WNYBuckHunter]

I think the diner and gas station observation is slowly becoming less important from an anecdotal POV. Sure there are still bumpkins out there, but the last 10 or so years have been heavy on the scent control movement and also the reduction in large organized deer drives based on smaller parcel size and access.

 

10-15 years ago, we would all meet at the diner, gas up, and do a drive, wearing our hunting gear the whole time. Not so much today.

 

Well, heres what I have observed over the last 15 years. I used to hunt with a group of guys down on some state land in Belfast. Every year it was full of trucks, cars. Opening day was pretty crowded down there, and once it got light, it sounded like WW3 all morning. Then youd get an afternoon lull and things would pick up again in the evening. Over the years it got less and less crowded, as guys stopped going down there. Now, youd be lucky to see 15 trucks and cars on the place on opening weekend, and its close to 7000 acres. Last time I was down for opening day, I heard less than 30 shots that day.

 

Another chuck of state land, near to the farms I hunt, last year I saw 6 or 7 trucks and cars through all of opening weekend. I didnt hear squat for shooting in the valley either. Once Thanksgiving was past, I hardly saw a vehicle parked at the state land and the ones I did see were guys that I know are locals. Im pretty sure the farm I hunt gets more pressure than the state land does.

[WNYBuckHunter]

They have as good of a handle as they can given the situation. I can pretty much gurantee they'd blow up DECALS if they could...but it is not happening anytime soon.

 

They literally have almost no control over the data integrity - it's done by Verizon and the company contracted to create and manage it in the SW part of the country. Outsourcing it was a big mistake in this instance because the project was poorly managed from the get-go and now there is no money or resources to fix it or redevelop.

 

Well, that answers why they dont add a short survey of hot issues when you buy your license.

[Doc]

Uhhhhhh , what was the original topic ? 

Ha-ha-ha, this thread has finally turned into something worth reading. We have covered all the world's ills in this one thread.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Not yet Doc, lets get into ARs a little more, then baiting and for the grand finale, the SAFE act. Then we will have the ultimate HuntingNY.com Coup de Grase!

[phade]

I see tons of hunting pressure. Tons. This is me standing at the end of my driveway and snapping a pic at THE END OF MY FREAKING DRIVEWAY ON OCT 19TH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

Thats more than I see on state land during gun season in 8H

[Doc]

Well, heres what I have observed over the last 15 years. I used to hunt with a group of guys down on some state land in Belfast. Every year it was full of trucks, cars. Opening day was pretty crowded down there, and once it got light, it sounded like WW3 all morning. Then youd get an afternoon lull and things would pick up again in the evening. Over the years it got less and less crowded, as guys stopped going down there. Now, youd be lucky to see 15 trucks and cars on the place on opening weekend, and its close to 7000 acres. Last time I was down for opening day, I heard less than 30 shots that day.

 

Another chuck of state land, near to the farms I hunt, last year I saw 6 or 7 trucks and cars through all of opening weekend. I didnt hear squat for shooting in the valley either. Once Thanksgiving was past, I hardly saw a vehicle parked at the state land and the ones I did see were guys that I know are locals. Im pretty sure the farm I hunt gets more pressure than the state land does.

That kind of mirrors the way I have seen things go, except I have quite a few more years of observations. I can remember back in the 60's, climbing the hill across the road before daylight and watching the cars come down the road. It was like watching a long snake of headlights with the cars traveling bumper to bumper, heading south.  Today you will see barely any difference from any other normal day's traffic. State parking lots that used to be filled up with cars also lining the road now have no problems for any late arrivals as far as finding a spot. Farmer's driveways including our own used to have several cars parked in them are now empty except for the residents cars.

 

Shooting activity has pretty much followed the same pattern. That's why I am always surprised at the downward hunter stats. Surprised that the differences are as slight as they are.

 

And yet the deer harvest numbers don't always reflect those observations. Are we getting that good?

[WNYBuckHunter]

That kind of mirrors the way I have seen things go, except I have quite a few more years of observations. I can remember back in the 60's, climbing the hill across the road before daylight and watching the cars come down the road. It was like watching a long snake of headlights with the cars traveling bumper to bumper, heading south.  Today you will see barely any difference from any other normal day's traffic. State parking lots that used to be filled up with cars also lining the road now have no problems for any late arrivals as far as finding a spot. Farmer's driveways including our own used to have several cars parked in them are now empty except for the residents cars.

 

Shooting activity has pretty much followed the same pattern. That's why I am always surprised at the downward hunter stats. Surprised that the differences are as slight as they are.

 

And yet the deer harvest numbers don't always reflect those observations. Are we getting that good?

 

Im not sure. Its possible that a lower number of hunters are taking more deer because they have more tags. Party permits are a thing of the past, and deer numbers are up.

[Doc]

Not yet Doc, lets get into ARs a little more, then baiting and for the grand finale, the SAFE act. Then we will have the ultimate HuntingNY.com Coup de Grase!

I believe there was a little AR, but we definitely have to do the baiting one. Maybe it's time to bring up the tongue-prints on the back of my rolling salt block again. By the way, I got into a mean streak and washed the car off. Poor Bambi will have to find another source of salt.

[phade]

Thats more than I see on state land during gun season in 8H

This is 8H and a slow weeknight evening. Weekend doubles that.