Let's throw some gas on the fire - MI Report

[mike rossi]

Well here we are again with another 300 plus pages of the same old tire thing we have had dozens of times before, name calling, insults, what organizations are evil or truly righteous to the cause, who the true hunters really are, and then the landowners chime in with what their rights should be, and then come the ole reliable recurve and longbow guys telling their tales of yore. Its like watching the same parade year after year.

Yea some of the faces have changed or not, but the argument stays exactly the same and keeps the chasm between hunters wider than ever.

I know what i desire and to me thats personal and no matter what anyone on any forum has to say will sway that opinion, and on the same token I would never tell anyone else how they should hunt. This is not a team sport or one played in a court or park where people can watch and judge, our sport is an individuals sport, i'll go as far as to say a loners or recluses sport that is done alone, by yourself, you and your thoughts and the only one who can truly govern is that lone indivdual, no judges, no umpires, no refs or fans. This old argument will be decided by people who are alot bigger n more powerfull than us anyway.

Anything related to hunting policy can be molded by a public opinion battle and it often is. However sometimes organizations have a bigger voice, even if their member constituency disagrees with the leadership.

 

Personally, this issue doesn't matter to me and I can't relate to the passion on both sides of the fence on this one. However, your comment  compels me to remind everyone that public opinion does  count, although true, as you alluded, that count is often misaligned by organizations. Also keep in mind that when the issue is biological rather than social, it should not be a public opinion battle and should be left up to ecologists (trying to wean you all off of biologist) rather than majority opinion influencing the legislature and governor to pass & sign bills. Open & transparent government including public comment and stakeholder input is a good thing, particularly on social dimensions, but it has become abused and that abuse has politicized conservation.

[phade]

I like turtles.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Shut me down? Really Doc? Please get over yourself.

 

Like I said, weve covered just about all there is to cover with hunting, so what should we do, just talk about current events and politics from here on out? Guess what, the crossbow issue IS in fact, a current event.

 

We have new members joining all the time, who havent talked about these issues before. Plus there are current changes to the legislation that are happening and coming up.

 

Bottom line, if you dont like the subject, dont open the thread or simply dont participate. If you choose to read or participate, dont complain about the content. Nobodys holding a crossbow to your head and making you type lol.

[growalot]

So 34 more days to turkey season...think it will rain?

[d-bone20917]

Anything related to hunting policy can be molded by a public opinion battle and it often is. However sometimes organizations have a bigger voice, even if their member constituency disagrees with the leadership.

 

Personally, this issue doesn't matter to me and I can't relate to the passion on both sides of the fence on this one. However, your comment  compels me to remind everyone that public opinion does  count, although true, as you alluded, that count is often misaligned by organizations. Also keep in mind that when the issue is biological rather than social, it should not be a public opinion battle and should be left up to ecologists (trying to wean you all off of biologist) rather than majority opinion influencing the legislature and governor to pass & sign bills. Open & transparent government including public comment and stakeholder input is a good thing, particularly on social dimensions, but it has become abused and that abuse has politicized conservation.

 

It's funny to me that when you start a thread on conservation issues it gets a couple replies, but someone starts the 100th crossbow thread or one on the new abortion laws in Arkansas and it goes on for pages.  The conservation and access issues are what will truly impact the future of hunting in this state and the US in general, yet few seem to be interested. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

More than likely lol.

[Doc]

Shut me down? Really Doc? Please get over yourself.

 

Like I said, weve covered just about all there is to cover with hunting, so what should we do, just talk about current events and politics from here on out? Guess what, the crossbow issue IS in fact, a current event.

 

We have new members joining all the time, who havent talked about these issues before. Plus there are current changes to the legislation that are happening and coming up.

 

Bottom line, if you dont like the subject, dont open the thread or simply dont participate. If you choose to read or participate, dont complain about the content. Nobodys holding a crossbow to your head and making you type lol.

 

Yes, shut you down:

Ha-ha .... I see that you are just dying to start that whole redundant clap-trap of an argument about why cross bows belong in archery season. But I won't bite on that nonsense. I and many others have already described in detail why they don't belong there and I refuse to repeat it all over again. I have better things to do with my time.

Guess what. We didn't go there again. Yes, I shut you down because I assume you don't like arguing with yourself .... even though there are times when I wonder.

 

And I guess, we can shut the forum down now that we have discussed everything there is about hunting, guns, fishing, camping, etc., etc. My gosh do you really think that we are at the point where we have to go back 2 years and dredge up old trash-talk that died back then because everyone finally got disgusted with it? Yes, there are new issues that deal with crossbows. When are we going to start talking about them instead of repeating the same old name-calling and redundant nonsense over and over and trying to "throw gas on the fire".

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There are new members joining every month. Some of the folks on this thread weren't even here last year for the 3rd annual crossbow debate...lol

Edited March 27, 2013 by Culvercreek hunt club

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yes, shut you down:

Guess what. We didn't go there again. Yes, I shut you down because I assume you don't like arguing with yourself .... even though there are times when I wonder.

 

And I guess, we can shut the forum down now that we have discussed everything there is about hunting, guns, fishing, camping, etc., etc. My gosh do you really think that we are at the point where we have to go back 2 years and dredge up old trash-talk that died back then because everyone finally got disgusted with it? Yes, there are new issues that deal with crossbows. When are we going to start talking about them instead of repeating the same old name-calling and redundant nonsense over and over and trying to "throw gas on the fire".

 

  Whatever you have to tell yourself to feel better today....

If you read through the debate, there are some new things sprinkled in there, but the meat and potatoes of the controversy remain the same. It is what it is.

[Five Seasons]

Well here we are again with another 300 plus pages of the same old tire thing we have had dozens of times before, name calling, insults, what organizations are evil or truly righteous to the cause, who the true hunters really are, and then the landowners chime in with what their rights should be, and then come the ole reliable recurve and longbow guys telling their tales of yore. Its like watching the same parade year after year.

Yea some of the faces have changed or not, but the argument stays exactly the same and keeps the chasm between hunters wider than ever.

I know what i desire and to me thats personal and no matter what anyone on any forum has to say will sway that opinion, and on the same token I would never tell anyone else how they should hunt. This is not a team sport or one played in a court or park where people can watch and judge, our sport is an individuals sport, i'll go as far as to say a loners or recluses sport that is done alone, by yourself, you and your thoughts and the only one who can truly govern is that lone indivdual, no judges, no umpires, no refs or fans. This old argument will be decided by people who are alot bigger n more powerfull than us anyway.

 

you make many good points, but I'd argue that this debate doesn't seriously hurt the hunting community. You take a side and you continue to hunt. If someone can point out some individuals who have quit hunting because they cannot use a crossbow then maybe I'm wrong. But hunters will still hunt. Ours rules and regs have been modified several times and we as hunters simply adapt. Few quit. If you don't love it enough to adapt, then you weren't a serious hunter to begin with.

 

and also, like it or not. We're all judges. I'm not speaking of scoring a rack, but anytime you post a picture or tell a story or go the taxidermist, you're judged.

 

 

Its funny how some of you start to get bored all of a sudden... just about the time you can no longer come up with a rational defense for your position on a topic and shortly after the name calling begins...

 

no, it's just that both sides have brought up the same points over and over again. It's not a matter of stamina or gathering additional facts, it's a matter of understanding you're not going to change anyone's opinion; so what's the point? And it's been pretty civil by both sides for most of this post.

 

 

People are delusional sometimes.

 

Seems like some are so petty they cannot agree to disagree, and if the other's view is opposite or not aligned...they are wrong.

 

Doc an I see eye to eye on about 25% of the topics that come up but even in the end we usually just agree to disagree and leave it be. Seems like some just can't do that. Goes a long way in showing character imo.

 

exactly. agree to disagree.

[Five Seasons]

Anything related to hunting policy can be molded by a public opinion battle and it often is. However sometimes organizations have a bigger voice, even if their member constituency disagrees with the leadership.

I love this general assumption making. I'd like to know who these folks are that fork over their annual membership fees and attend banquets but disagree with their organization. The NYB are very public and upfront on their stance. Hopefully any new member visits their website before they join and it's all right on the front page. I would seriously question any member of any organization who disagrees with their organizations opinions.

 

In fact their stance is one of the main reasons I joined.

[WNYBuckHunter]

You agree with EVERYTHING that NYB has done? How about the NRA?

[WNYBuckHunter]

But hunters will still hunt. Ours rules and regs have been modified several times and we as hunters simply adapt. Few quit. If you don't love it enough to adapt, then you weren't a serious hunter to begin with.

 

Sorry, but you are wrong on that one. Take a look at our declining numbers, the proof is there that many quit, and over time it has become a serious issue.

[BizCT]

When I saw the NYB stand at the Suffern Show, I said "Hey Guys, Crossbows in Archery in 2013!"....Nobody behind the table was able to respond, their mouths were all full of french fries and nachos.

[phade]

Sorry, but you are wrong on that one. Take a look at our declining numbers, the proof is there that many quit, and over time it has become a serious issue.

 

I know where you are coming from on this, but hunter numbers have upticked in the past few years in most all statistical categories. Bowhunting and MZ have been popular. I think the federal study, which is the "big" one that most go by, shows a 9% or so year over year increase since 2006.

 

Whether it is a short-term blip of 5-10 years, or a start to a new trend, I don't know. Access will continue to be the issue going forward.

Edited March 27, 2013 by phade

[WNYBuckHunter]

Agreed, but we shouldnt put all of our eggs in one basket either, there are a plethora of causes. I was referring to NY, and according to license sales, we are still declining.

[Five Seasons]

You agree with EVERYTHING that NYB has done? How about the NRA?

 

there are differences between everything and one of their main missions/goals. That's like joining the LGBTA and being against gay marriage.

 

 

Sorry, but you are wrong on that one. Take a look at our declining numbers, the proof is there that many quit, and over time it has become a serious issue.

 

statistics prove you wrong. And bowhunter numbers have increased. I've posted the stats here before, maybe you forgot to click the link. And there is noway you could prove it's the lack of crossbow hunting if they were declining. There are so many other factors at play. The "hunting in 50 years" thread is a great source for info.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Belo

[phade]

Total Hunters by State Where Hunting Took Place, 2001 to 2011

(Population 16 Years Old and Older)

% Change ‘11 Hunters/Square

State        2001       2006     2011     2006-11 Mile of Total Area

New York 714,000 566,000 823,000 45% 15.1

 

QDMA Report...

[phade]

See attached chart for the nationwide...

 

 

Not only has NY had a rise in hunters, but it is above the national average. The dip in the mid 2000s can be pretty much traced back to the big whiff the DEC had with deer numbers and DMPs...the boom population of the early 2000's and then that big drop off. Rebounding deer numbers means more license sales imo.

 

But in any case, NY has had statistically important growth since 2006.

Edited March 27, 2013 by phade

[WNYBuckHunter]

How about DEC numbers?

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/26368.html

 

I know how the QDMA figures out their numbers, they explained it when I was at the Northeast Leadership summit a couple of weeks ago.

[WNYBuckHunter]

statistics prove you wrong. And bowhunter numbers have increased. I've posted the stats here before, maybe you forgot to click the link. And there is noway you could prove it's the lack of crossbow hunting if they were declining. There are so many other factors at play. The "hunting in 50 years" thread is a great source for info.

 

When did I ever say that lack of crossbow hunting is the whole problem or even a big chunk of it? Again, with your typical tactic of trying to put words in people's mouths. I will however guarantee that there is a percentage of hunters that leave archery hunting because they can no longer draw a bow, and there are others that dont archery hunt because they dont have the time to practice, etc.

 

Care to guess again on the stats in this state?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

And what year di they make the big push with the lifetimes? I think it was a last chance before the raised the age for free licenses and last year for including hte doe permits with it. Was that 08/09?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yes

[phade]

How about DEC numbers?

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/26368.html

 

I know how the QDMA figures out their numbers, they explained it when I was at the Northeast Leadership summit a couple of weeks ago.

I believe, I may be wrong, but that figure is no longer accurate because of what happened with the license hike and lifetime license purchase push. That's why you see the balloon in the license sales and then a drop off.

 

Once you buy the lifetime, it no longer counts in subsquent years as a "sale" because the money is put into that fund and there is no new revenue. I'm fairly positive overall hunter numbers are statistically higher now in NY than in 2006.

Edited March 27, 2013 by phade

[WNYBuckHunter]

The numbers were declining before that. You want me to believe that enough people bought lifetime licenses to reverse that trend? They have continued to decline in the 2 years after the 2009 push.