NY to spend $28M to create statewide gun permit database

[HectorBuckBuster]

Well another piece of the NY Safe has just been implemented. They cut funding to lots of programs but find $28 million dollars to create a state wide gun database.

 

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/03/ny_to_spend_28m_on_gun_permit.html#incart_m-rpt-2

[wmig2]

The ignorance continues. These buffoons can't stabilize the economy and continue wasteful spending. They cut school aid and spend money on this sh**. I have a great idea cut 28 million from social services for this program. Let the weak perish. This country needs a revolution as I have stated years ago in here. Sorry I'm a little piss**d. LOL

[Doc]

"The database is a key element of the state gun control law adopted in January, a month after the Newtown, Conn., shooting."

Yup, now there is an act that surely would have prevented the Newtown Connecticut shooting. What a bunch of blithering idiots! These legislators who proposed and voted for this crap have to be punished. They deserve to lose theri jobs. It's up to us to see to it that that happens during the next round of elections. And when that is done, we need to each write them a letter explaining just why that happened.

[sits in trees]

This whole thing is ridiculous. And also goes to show that we cant let, because as you can see Cuomo is not sleeping on this.

[mmkay]

I build databases for a living.  I have build DB's for many of the largest companies out there.  I could build this handgun DB for less than $500,000. ...but I won't. what the hell do they need 28 million for?

[Doc]

I build databases for a living.  I have build DB's for many of the largest companies out there.  I could build this handgun DB for less than $500,000. ...but I won't. what the hell do they need 28 million for?

ha-ha .... It gets to be a whole different realm when you are dealing with the unlimited souce of taxpayer wealth. budgets for such things have no standards of reasonableness. When it comes to an administration that takes pleasure in trashing the Constitution, why would we expect them to be concerned about financial restraint.

[mmkay]

Put it this way a 10 million name database with transactional data (such as a major sporting goods retailer uses) would cost about $500,000 to $1 million.  About 5 to 10 cents per name.  This database would have append demographics (age, income, education level, ect...).  the NYS handgun DB would basically be a excel spreadsheet with names, address and types of guns, ect.... I reduce my quote..I could outsource this to India and get it done for about $50,000...or China and get it for about $30,000.

 

BTW - it WILL BE outsourced to India or China and some policically connected jackass will make roughly a $27.8 million profit

 

 

 

[growalot]

Ahhh.... ya but see...all us gun toting country idiots...well we aren't smart enough to realize that....LOL

 

Actually I'd like to see one news reporter or "show" ask that question...and see what type of BS answer they have to scramble to come up with.....

[Mr VJP]

They only say they will spend all that money on the database.  Actually they'll budget that much for it, spend $50K on it, and use the rest of the money to buy millions of rounds of .40 S&W hollow point ammo to be used for "target practice".

 

[Doc]

OK, I guess I need some clarification on all this. This database is strictly for handguns .. right? And there already is a registration system required for handguns in NYS already .... right? I guess it is currently administered by each of the counties by a jillion different municipalities ..... is that correct?

 

So assuming that I have all that stuff right, why wouldn't it make more sense to have a central database run by the state? It's their law. Yes I can understand complaints about the exhorbitant cost of the project, but I can't see much to argue about other than that outrageous cost. I also have to wonder if there might be savings to the local systems. Their must be jillions of individual databases across the counties that maybe could be trashed with this single-source data collection. I don't know ... I simply am missing something here. I have to be honest, I always assumed that the state already was the keeper of the database. Anybody want to explain what I am not seeing here?

[mmkay]

I believe the local pistol permit databases are under the control of the individual county clerks.  These county clerks decide who has access to the data and for what.  Compare Westchester / Rockland to Putnam.  Putnam's clerk refused the journal News request for the data.  Westchester / Rockland gave the data to the Journal news the pistol permit lists.

 

 

As for savings one central DB could be cheaper, but one entity would decide the fate of the data.  Image the data being shared with Peta, a gun control group or other organizations. 

 

 

The questions to ask is why does the state government want this list?  Whats the purpose?  Could they expand it to include a long gun registry?   Use it to send out yearly registration bills (taxes)?

[Doc]

I believe the local pistol permit databases are under the control of the individual county clerks.  These county clerks decide who has access to the data and for what.  Compare Westchester / Rockland to Putnam.  Putnam's clerk refused the journal News request for the data.  Westchester / Rockland gave the data to the Journal news the pistol permit lists.

 

 

As for savings one central DB could be cheaper, but one entity would decide the fate of the data.  Image the data being shared with Peta, a gun control group or other organizations. 

 

 

The questions to ask is why does the state government want this list?  Whats the purpose?  Could they expand it to include a long gun registry?   Use it to send out yearly registration bills (taxes)?

Actually, if I remember the wording correctly I believe they specifically included in the law that the database would not be permitted to be accessed via the Freedom of Information Act. Which would make the data more secure than it is now.

 

As for the purpose of a centralized database one might think it would be for consistancy of data, and single point ready access for the benefit of law enforcement.

 

Could it be expanded? ..... I suppose just like the current system could be.

 

I don't know, I am just trying to understand the down-sides of such a database (other than the initial costs of course).

[mmkay]

Down sides are:

 

 

(a) You will end up with a yearly tax on all your handguns. The state is broke..It needs money...these people think guns are bad, they'll try to make it that you can't afford a handgun

 

 

(b). It will be expanded to long guns.  - Again the state is broke. It needs money...these people think guns are bad, they'll try to make it that you can't afford a long guns

 

 

© Any FOIL restrictions will be challenged to ignored - Others will get the list

 

 

(d) What business is it of theirs to know what we own - they are our public servants, not our masters

 

 

(e) Guns will be confiscated –

     (e1).suppose your neighbor or ex-wife gets mad at you or better yet an abused wife get a gun to protect herself from her ex-husband. All the pissed off neighbor or abusive ex-husband has to do is go to court and get a temporary restraining order against you.  Now the police show up and take all your guns.  The 120 lbs. wife is now DEFENSELESS against her 200lb ex-husband.  You now have a dead wife

 

 

     (e2) Guns that were once legal 7+ round mags, pistol grip shot guns will be found and taken from you.

 

 

 

Doc – I really enjoy this site and reading the comments people leave, but I’m starting suspect that a large percentage of my fellow gun owners are naively ignorant as to the nature of the their fellow man (politicians)

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2013 by mmkay

[Mr VJP]

I see no benefit to gun owners, or society at large.  Therefore I believe all gun owners should oppose it.  Ask yourself who such a database benefits, and you will see why they want it.

[Doc]

Down sides are:

(a) You will end up with a yearly tax on all your handguns. The state is broke..It needs money...these people think guns are bad, they'll try to make it that you can't afford a handgun

(b). It will be expanded to long guns.  - Again the state is broke. It needs money...these people think guns are bad, they'll try to make it that you can't afford a long guns

© Any FOIL restrictions will be challenged to ignored - Others will get the list

(d) What business is it of theirs to know what we own - they are our public servants, not our masters

(e) Guns will be confiscated –

     (e1).suppose your neighbor or ex-wife gets mad at you or better yet an abused wife get a gun to protect herself from her ex-husband. All the pissed off neighbor or abusive ex-husband has to do is go to court and get a temporary restraining order against you.  Now the police show up and take all your guns.  The 120 lbs. wife is now DEFENSELESS against her 200lb ex-husband.  You now have a dead wife

     (e2) Guns that were once legal 7+ round mags, pistol grip shot guns will be found and taken from you.

 

Doc – I really enjoy this site and reading the comments people leave, but I’m starting suspect that a large percentage of my fellow gun owners are naively ignorant as to the nature of the their fellow man (politicians)

 

Now wait a minute. We are talking about taking the same info they are currently gathering and putting it in a central database ..... right? Where is all this other stuff coming from? I haven't seen anything that is proposing anything other than the relocation of existing data from every Tom, Dick and Harry county clerk to a more secure, location. Hey if anyone can point me to anyplace that says any different, let me know. That is why I was asking the question.

 

I am interested in real documented dangers or problems, not imagined future problems. The way I see it there are none of those supposed problems mentioned that cannot happen with the existing collections of databases. Or am I still missing part of the information?

 

(a) Is there something about centralizing existing data bases that has anything to do with adding taxes on guns?

( Is there something about centralizing existing data bases that has anything to do with expanding registration to include long guns?

© Is there something about centralizing the existing data bases that makes the FOIL intrusions more likely, especially since the new centralized database has protection in law from FOIL inquiries?

(d) They already have that information don't they? The location of that database is not going to remove the the government from that intrusion. Remember we are not talking about the entire "Safe act". At least I'm not. We're talking about a centralization of information that is already being collected.

(e1) This centralized database does nothing to prevent or promote that neighbor from instigating investigations. remember this thread is about the new centralized database only, not the entire safe act.

(e2) This new centralized database has nothing to do with making guns, magazines, or anything else illegal. It simply has to do with a database of information that is already gathered and stored all over the state.

 

Sorry to get so lengthy, but I seem to be having a problem being understood as to what my question is. I am not asking the down-sides of the new NYS gun control law in its entirety. I am slowly getting the information regarding all that. What I am specifically asking about is relative only to the topic of this thread ..... The issue of centralizing pistol permit data in one (less vulnerable) location. I hear a lot of opposition to that database, and I am trying to understand why (other than the massive cost, which I can understand). I'm not arguing for or against it. I am simply trying to understand the opposition to it.

[mmkay]

Doc if you don't see the path we're moving towards, than you're either blind to the ways of the world or just full of hopeful optimism.  Perhaps you’re a kinder better human being than I will ever be, more trusting in those who wish to control you.  I don’t know…I pointed out the downside, you just didn’t want to open your eyes.  I can’t help you.  God bless

 

 

[Mr VJP]

The measure will create a central database of pistol permit records now kept at the county level where handgun owners live. 

 

This will take control away from local authorities and put it in the states control.  When the state decides all permits are cancelled and all handguns are illegal, they will not have to worry about local authorities blocking access to the info and will be able to target you directly very fast.

 

Confiscation is the goal people, and this is going to make it a lot easier for state authorities to achieve.  It has nothing to do with crime, or making anyone but the state authorities, safer!

 

The government is NOT your friend, and everything they do should be viewed with that in mind!!

[josephmrtn]

Actualy the key to this is having people register there guns... the database is totaly useless if i wont register them on it...

[Doc]

Doc if you don't see the path we're moving towards, than you're either blind to the ways of the world or just full of hopeful optimism.  Perhaps you’re a kinder better human being than I will ever be, more trusting in those who wish to control you.  I don’t know…I pointed out the downside, you just didn’t want to open your eyes.  I can’t help you.  God bless

 

See, this is what I don't understand. I asked a question about moving existing gun permit data to a new centralized database (since that is the topic of this thread). I specifically said that I understand the problems with the new gun law in its entirety, but repeated that I am strictly talking about the database. I can't be any clearer than that. And yet I get answers that talk about additional registration, and confiscation, taxes, FOIL (which this new database is the only one that eliminates that as a problem) and just about every gun law that was ever passed, but nothing about the database. Need I point out again that the issues you are bringing up have nothing to do with a datbase. A data base can't make a tax, confiscate a gun, create registration requirements, etc. etc. I don't know whether you are simply not reading the question at all or whether you really can't think of a single problem that relates strictly to the moving of the database to Albany.

[Doc]

The measure will create a central database of pistol permit records now kept at the county level where handgun owners live. 

 

This will take control away from local authorities and put it in the states control.  When the state decides all permits are cancelled and all handguns are illegal, they will not have to worry about local authorities blocking access to the info and will be able to target you directly very fast.

 

Confiscation is the goal people, and this is going to make it a lot easier for state authorities to achieve.  It has nothing to do with crime, or making anyone but the state authorities, safer!

 

The government is NOT your friend, and everything they do should be viewed with that in mind!!

When those gun owner names showed up in public media, that is when I decided that local control of those records amounted to no control at all. It didn't do us a lot of good to have our counties giving up that kind of data did it? This new database where they will be moving the info to comes with a legal guarantee (built into the law) that divulging any of that info to the public will be illegal.

 

Now regarding the control that you think the local authorities have over any part of the system, let me remind you that those records held by the county are New York State records. They are mandated by NYS. They are defined by NYS. And after a fashion, there is nothing there that they cannot access. They are there by virtue of NYS laws. So where is this local control. The only thing that local authorities have control over is slipping that info to the media. Oh yeah, and each and every county has an entire bureaucracy built around it with untold redundant staffing.

 

As far as expediting confiscation, if you believe for a moment that county level data storage means that the state cannot access it and use it in any fashion that they want ..... well all I can say is that you are mistaken. Having the data stored in counties does not stop any further encroachments .... It just doesn't. In fact it is the lawmaking system that controls that sort of thing not databases , as we have just unhappily found out.

 

Nothing would make me happier than to eliminate all databases, but reality says that is not going to happen. These databases will be maintained and it really is only a question of where. Hence my question: Is there a downside to moving the data storage to the capital? Maybe somebody can come up with a practical reason why that shouldn't be done. The only one that I have heard so far is the cost, and there is even some reason to believe that long term this might even be a cost improvement.

[mmkay]

Doc -

 

 

 

I think we see the world through different prisms; mine was forged through nearly 25 years of building marketing databases fortune 500 companies.  I’m not sure of your background.  I pointed out the downside as I see them.  You interpreted my issues as unrelated to a DB.  They are not!  The biggest issue is EASE of access to this data.  Money doesn’t get spent and databases don’t get build unless there is a very specific application or question that needs to be answered.  The question I believe that is trying to be answered is WHO owns a GUN!  One entity will have the answer to this question if this DB is built.  Remember what happened in Westchester / Rockland County as Opposed to Putnam.  Putnam refused the foil request.

 

 

 

 

Do you know what it is like to work for a fortune 500 company and get called into the HR department because some jackass read your name in the paper?  Being asked by your HR folks how are things by going?  Having your co-workers ask why do you need a pistol?

 

 

 

 

I have built dozens..Maybe hundreds of large and mid-size DB’s in my career.  Each and every one of them gets expanded to fulfill other needs that were not part of the orginal scope of requirements.  If it’s built it will be used.  It will be government property.  Owned by the tax payers of the state.  Lawyers will get access to it, special interests will get access.  Pro-gun groups and anti-gun groups will get access….YES I know these folks can foil for the county lists already.  But it is now a pain in the ass to foil every county and receive the data in 100’s of different formats (word doc, excel, printouts, photo copies).  By having the lists at the county level access is hard to get.

 

 

 

 

I hope the above helps you.  I hope you open up you thought process and set aside your preconceived conclusions.  But I suspect this won’t help you at all.  Like I said, you’re mostly likely kinder better human being than I will ever be, more trusting in those who wish to control you.

 

 

 

I’m done commenting on this topic. 

 

 

 

"The revelation of thought takes men out of servitude into freedom". --Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Doc]

I don't care how many databases you have built, if you believe that a database can pass additional gun registration requirements, or change NYS laws or create taxes on firearms, or confiscate firearms, then I simply have to correct you. A database can't do those things. 

 

Also, I have lost track of how many times I have mentioned this, but there is no new data being gathered or stored in this database that is not already stored by the government already. We are not trying to decide if a database should exist or not. It already does. Your friendly county clerk accumulates this info along with a whole staff of people (each being a potential leak of info and each drawing a paycheck).

 

I also might point out (in fact I already have several times) that each and every county database is NYS property and owned by the taxpayers of the state. They are all part of the NYS pistol permitting system and currently leak like a sieve. So if you have concerns about being "outed" as a gun owner, the current system is made for that sort of thing with no protections.

 

As far as FOIL leakages, you have already pointed out just how arbitrary the different counties can be on that subject. Did you catch that? The counties can be arbitrary in terms of honoring FOIL requests. On the other hand, it is written into law that it is illegal to release information to the public from the new database. I want you to re-read that sentence since it is now 3 times that I have repeated it. I can't do it again.

 

I share your frustration with this topic. I have asked the same simple question in about as many ways as I possibly can and have read replies that address everything but the database itself. I guess I am about to give up as well and assume that other than the horrible amounts of money that they are forecasting it will cost, there really is no legitimate reasons why this information shouldn't reside in a leak-proof central location.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

We are not trying to decide if a database should exist or not. It already does. Your friendly county clerk accumulates this info along with a whole staff of people (each being a potential leak of info and each drawing a paycheck).

 

But now they may also have information on private sales. right?  That was never included in any database prior to this

 

[Doc]

But now they may also have information on private sales. right?  That was never included in any database prior to this

But the current system will accumulate that info as well if I understand the law correctly. Permit documentation is permit documentation regardless of where the database resides. Also when the assault rifle registration hits the sytem, that info will be added regardless of which databases are eventually chosen.

[WNYBuckHunter]

But now they may also have information on private sales. right?  That was never included in any database prior to this

 

Well, this new database is just for handguns, they have always had the info on private handgun sales anyhow.