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So which is it??

Doc

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Doc Experienced

Doc

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Does culling work or doesn't it? We've all read the studies about how culling doesn't work and how most of the genetics are determined by the does etc., etc.  However, today I saw three different programs on TV (and I have seen others) that were about management hunts where these people were claiming that the only reason they have these monster bucks that they do is because of intensive culling programs. I have to admit that these guys had some pretty impressive credentials in the form of pictures, video and mounts of their deer. Of course these were heavily managed western ranches, but they were not small game farms either.

I realize that nobody here is really capable of answering the question about culling, but I just thought it was pretty amazing as to how completely opposed so many of these biologists and so-called "experts" are on this subject. Wouldn't you think that with all of the years of intensive study on whitetails that a question of this sort would be agreed upon by all those supposedly "in-the-know"?

It makes you wonder how many other supposed "facts" have the same levels of uncertainty.

Doc

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nyslowhand Enthusiast

nyslowhand

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More than likely those were for "fenced" areas, weren't they Doc? Texas maybe..?

If you have every deer within the fences and thin out the bucks that are less than desireable, you'll end up with great breeding stock.

In the wild - no way would culling have any effect.

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Four Season Whitetail's Newbie

Four Season Whitetail's

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Yeah that would be like the one's that say shoot all spikes because thats all they will ever be...I have seen august born buck fawns that were spikes their first year and be 130 inch 2yr olds!!!!I agree i dont think the cull thing would work in the wild because we dont know what kind of genetics we are takin out when we shoot one!!!

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Doc Experienced

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More than likely those were for "fenced" areas, weren't they Doc? Texas maybe..?

If you have every deer within the fences and thin out the bucks that are less than desireable, you'll end up with great breeding stock.

In the wild - no way would culling have any effect.

Well, you know how these TV programs are. They really don't highlight the fence, so I can't say for sure. I can't really imagine anyone with a whole lot of money invested in their hunting operations not having a fence around it (just to keep people out if nothing else). So I would assume they were all fenced properties. However, Some of the horizon shots showed that there was no shortage of space. I mean, these places were huge. So my guess is that they were fairly close to a "wild" population. But really, without actually being there, there is no way of knowing.

As far as where they were, one ranch was in old Mexico and another was in Texas, and a third, I have no idea where they were located. But these guys all were pretty adamant about the necessity of culling. I know there are a lot of others that have the same opinions. We have all heard that term "management buck" used on a lot of these TV programs. Heck I even heard them using the term "management animal" in Africa ..... lol. so this idea of culling is very widespread. And yet there are some very impressive studies that claim that culling by taking specific males is a waste of time because so much of the genetics are determined by does. All these high-powered experts being so totally opposed on something that basic really makes you wonder if any of them are worth listening to.

Doc

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Buckstopshere Newbie

Buckstopshere

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That's a good one Larry!

Just my two cents, but I think that the whole culling thing is a sales gimmick. First of all, it makes no biological or game management sense because the does contribute 50% to the genes. It would be like trying to breed dogs or horses, or cows and only be concerned with the quality in the dog, stallion, or bull. Actually, the notion of culling whitetails is an insult to our intelligence.

But it is a good marketing tool.

"Now Doc, I have a whitetail trophy project going on down here in Allegany County. (I wish ;D ...not really.)  And because we have had some great conversations about bowhunting in the past...and you are such a great guy, why don't you come on down here and shoot one of my cull bucks. They are only a couple hundred bucks...and it would be a blast....etc. etc. Course if you have any well-heeled hunting buddies, bring them too." Get my drift? And if you brought two...and they shot two bucks...the cull buck you shot would be between you and me...wink, wink.

I went on a hunt in Tennesee for hogs a few years ago and watched one of my buddies drop 10 grand in five minutes...shooting three rams with a rifle. These hunting guides are good salesmen and it is all about the marketing....$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Let's talk about real hunting! And it starts Saturday! Good Luck to all!

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epanzella Newbie

epanzella

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In any group of animals if there is a trait you want to breed out, you kill the animals with that characteristic and eventually it will go away. I'm no geneticist but it seems to me that killing only trophy bucks will eventually reduce the numbers of deer with those qualities. It seems that some culling of inferior animals would be required to maintain herd quality. 

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Doc Experienced

Doc

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So the trophy hunting isn't in the best interest of herd health?...hmmmmmm....go figure

Which kind of goes back to the original question ..... Is culling effective or not. Because if it is, then the reverse of taking out the runty, deformed, and inferior bucks, would not be a good thing. If such selective culling has no effect, then trophy hunting would also have no effect. So I guess the question still remains can selective harvests (of either sort) really impact the quality of the herd at all? Which experts are we to believe?

Doc

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Doc Experienced

Doc

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Maybe the best approach, Doc, is one that mirrors the only true expert......mother nature...so if the ones that need a change really want one.....maybe only take out the young and very old....maybe we need a slot limit on deer...lol

Many of the "experts" say that it doesn't matter what we take out, at least as far as genetics are concerned. They point to the role that bucks play in genetics as being too minor to really have any impact. The claim is that the does have a big enough part in genetic development that managing features of bucks alone is a pointless activity. If they are right, AR, culling, or even some form of slot-limit harvest would have no effect on genetics. So the question remains: are they right or is the "culling crowd" right? Both sides have their research and studies to back up their 180 degree opposed positions.

This isn't the first time that deer management "experts" have gone head-to-head in directly opposite conclusions, and it all just points up the level of skepticism we have to maintain when ever these guys talk, putting on their most authoritative, wise, and all-knowing tone of voice and posturing. It's always hard to figure out just what they know and what they think they know but don't. In this case of culling vs. not culling, I am simply left confused. Both sides of the argument have merit and some level of science behind their positions. So, who can you actually believe?

Doc

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