Slow!!!

[meatmuzzy]

i think we are in the lull.  Ive heard turkeys gobble on memorial day for crying out loud.  Just keep hunting its only for a month! Next month you guys will be crying about how much you miss it.....Just hunt and try to have fun!

[TeeBugg]

i think we are in the lull. Ive heard turkeys gobble on memorial day for crying out loud. Just keep hunting its only for a month! Next month you guys will be crying about how much you miss it.....Just hunt and try to have fun!

X2.....i was in a bass tournament last year and had two gobblers going nuts with my mouth call. Yes i had a mouth call in my pocket in june....dont know why lol Edited May 17, 2013 by TeeBugg

[Water Rat]

i think we are in the lull.  Ive heard turkeys gobble on memorial day for crying out loud.  Just keep hunting its only for a month! Next month you guys will be crying about how much you miss it.....Just hunt and try to have fun!

 

So true...... I'm already looking forward to next season and this one isn't even done yet. I've shot one of my biggest gobblers on the last day of the month , so it can be done. Maybe I just need to catch up on my sleep.

 

[mike rossi]

Sorry fellas but I'm going with the majority here. Birds are dead silent and strutting activity is non existent IF you can even find a bird. Foliage is to thick and hay is to tall. It never fails that this time of year the hunting falls off rapidly. Regardless of the good knowledge that Mike dropped, the season needs a one week earlier opening and has needed it for 3 year now. Plenty of seasoned turkey guys around here say the late season just isn't what it used to be.

 

Do you think the youth turkey season which started in 2004 has had any impact on turkey populations or the behavior of the birds during the regular season?

Edited May 17, 2013 by mike rossi

[WhitetailAddict11]

That's a very legitimate point Mike without a doubt. I will be trapping coons and shooting more coyotes on my properties this year to see what kind of affect it has on the hatch next spring. I see coyotes on one of my best properties almost every other time I hunt but the farmer doesn't want them being shot because "they keep the woodchucks down" THE HELL THEY DO. I see woodchuck holes everywhereeeeee on that property because those dogs stay full on fawns and turkey poults throughout the summer and early fall.

[letinmfly]

I don't know if that is a majority opinion or not, but it certainly is a socio-political opinion. Funny nobody has questioned the impact on population and behavior of the early youth season; which started in 2004 which harvested 1,025 birds; 2005 = 1,165 birds; 2006 = 1,308 birds 2007 = 1,583; Someone else can fill in the blanks for 2008 through 2013.

 

Mike can you post the link to where these numbers are posted please?

 

I did see where it was almost 1,900 birds in 2012 for the youth hunt.

[mike rossi]

Mike can you post the link to where these numbers are posted please?

 

I did see where it was almost 1,900 birds in 2012 for the youth hunt.

http://www.nybowhunter.com/2008/05/record-harvest-for-youth-turkey-hunters.html

[mbucks27]

Here is another good link where it breaks down spring turkey harvest by county from 2003-2012. I hunt Greene county and the numbers are way down from the high in 2003. Either way ill be out there agin this weekend and have seen a few toms around so hopefully i can get one before the end of the season.

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/30420.html

 

John

[mike rossi]

Here is another good link where it breaks down spring turkey harvest by county from 2003-2012. I hunt Greene county and the numbers are way down from the high in 2003. Either way ill be out there agin this weekend and have seen a few toms around so hopefully i can get one before the end of the season.

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/30420.html

 

John

Thanks and oops - the numbers are much different, I didn't realize that apparently was bow hunting harvest numbers. It also looks like the youth hunt actually started in 2003 not 04.

That info, however, is not useful in assessing the impact of the youth season on the population status or the behavior of turkeys during the regular season.

On the DEC website, there is a link discussing declining wild turkey populations in the state. The link gives some back-ground and then delves into the recent population trends in the state. They list about 10 different possible factors for the decline.

I find a number of things interesting about this section. First, on some of the factors they place question marks (?). However, exhaustive study has not been done, and even after study, there usually is still "?". That makes me uneasy because knowing the thought-process of most sportsmen, most of them will hone in on the predator section, which really doesn't even make strong suggestions as given. 85% nest loss across the board to all kinds of ground-nesting birds is known, so the chart they include suggests very little.

Second, there is no mention about the possible impact of the youth season which has a timing relationship with the notice in less birds. An index comparing the youth harvest data with other data over a timeline should be in that summary, why is it left out?

Lastly, there are a number of other known factors not even mentioned. Believe it or not and like it or not; lead pellets on the ground are ingested by birds, including turkeys, and cause direct mortality, indirect mortality, or compromise reproduction. The same could be said for pesticides and herbicides. Some of PA's fracking brine may have already been (legally) used as road melt in NY. The onset of fracking also roughly coincides with the suspected decline in turkeys as well.

The reasons the harvest data and the bird watching data suggest less turkeys over the decade can be any combination of things or just human bias. Human bias would be more hunters getting skunked or bad weather effecting bird watching, whatever. The whole situation may just be a normal population cycle. The DEC says it might just be population contraction.

Each of those factors should be studied individually before a so-called meta analysis is made. When I read just Friday, that the past president of the NY chapter of the NWTF is suggesting to the legislature a year-round coyote season is the answer, I shake my head. Many hunters don't realize the operating budget of nonprofit conservation organizations is tens of millions of dollars and the great deal of good some chapters do when under honest & competent leadership. What was this guy doing while he was president? (he had the responsibility and means; to allocate , raise, or receive grants, to fund a study about the relationship between coyotes & turkeys - why didn't he, and now the state should change a law just because "of what he thinks?") < That is just insane... What level of understanding does he have about what he needs to know to function as head of a conservation chapter? The dec will need the political support of hunters and the financial support of nonprofits to study this properly, not a zeal of go after coyotes or other predators "just because". Maybe the dec itself doesn't have the right people in place, I doubt that though, I think they coordinate their communication to their audience (hunters) and standard of political correctness toward the audience as well. I have already cautioned on this forum about the people who are heading up our clubs and advisory boards and the mixing of politics with biology. IDK if it is incompetence or it reached the point of the dec being afraid of calling a spade a spade or what... All I can say is get informed and stay engaged in the issues...

Edited May 20, 2013 by mike rossi

[whaler]

Hi all, new here. Ive been out 5 times this season and let me tell you this. They were gobbling good saturday. I was hunting in CT but I plan on making it up to NY in the next few days.

 

Before this, I wasn't hearing much on the roost or on the ground. The one bird I have taken this year was so henned up that I put a stalk on and luckily got within 25 yards and used a large tree as cover as I drew my bow. I will chalk that one up to luck.

 

My usual hunting area is devoid of birds. Im thinking it could have been from Hurricane Sandy. Tons of large trees fell in the roost area. I scouted it and hunted it twice. Not a peep and I only found a hen track a couple weeks before season where i normally see hundreds of strut marks and gobbler tracks.

 

Anyway, this weekend they were hammering all around on THE ROOST. let out a small tree yelp and 5 minutes later a coyote sneaks to 15 yards of me looking. Not good. Didn't hear the birds after flydown and I was within 100 yards of them. around 1030am I decided to walk a bit and call, no sooner was I 15 minutes into my walk that I noticed a large yote pop out of some swampy, skunk cabbage to my left at 20 yards. This was a big yote too.

 

Never have I had so many encounters with coyotes stalking my calls. I used to hunt about 20 days a season up in upstate NY a few years ago and NEVER saw a coyote stalking my decoys or attempting to come in. I only saw them in the fall from distance.

 

Im not saying thats the reason this season stinks, Im just giving a number of factors I have seen personally.

 

I feel like these last 11 days of season are going to really heat up. My fingers are crossed.

 

 

[G-Man]

been gobbling good all week by me, of course i am walking out the door listening to 3-5 birds as i head to work at 6 am.. but vacation starts wed. and i'll finially get after em. birds strutting in fields on way to work is depressing when you cant hunt them.  as for quiet birds if you shoot everyone that gobbles , genetic selection will take over and make quite birds more common. lol... population varies as does hunting pressure, thats why a lot of guys hunt later in am when pressure drops off and birds think everyone has gone home., bird are active and will roost same areas as long as not disturbed as weather get nicer hikers/cycleists, and people just taking a dog for a walk increases, let alone everyone coming out to open their camps/summer houses activities.

[MACHINIST]

Do you think the youth turkey season which started in 2004 has had any impact on turkey populations or the behavior of the birds during the regular season?

 

I dont think so,we have had better luck on the properties I hunt in the last few years,but I also think that the season needs to start a week or two earlier.

[mike rossi]

I dont think so,we have had better luck on the properties I hunt in the last few years,but I also think that the season needs to start a week or two earlier.

For any reason different than what others gave on here? Edited May 20, 2013 by mike rossi

[G-Man]

nys biologist will not start season earlier because that is prime breeding the youth hunt then only allows 1 bird. practiceing calling and shed hunting disrupts birds as well if not more than the youth hunt. removing gobblers after the breeding is mostly done doesnt hurt a poligamist population. yes the answer better and respond better but thats because main breeding phase is going on. so you have to work a little to get your bird, its called HUNTING not shooting.

[G-Man]

has anyone even considered that due to a large hard and soft mass failure last year turkeys are not where they usually are do to lack of food, they are mobile, unfortunatly property lines are not. and that nice overgrown fiel you cleaned out to make that food plot for deer hunting was their main nesting area? turkeys can and do move to more favorable areas, yes the wood you hunt may not seem to have changed to you but they do change much more to animal that depend on certain conditions for nesting and breeding.

[meatmuzzy]

I was up this weekend at my farm and got on a Tom both days but he was henned up.  He gobbled at everything I said but would not leave the ladies.  This turkey was unusual because he never made a peep on the roost but as soon as he hit the ground he gobbled every minute.  Quite the opposite of what we're used to.  Made for a challenging but fun hunt even though I didnt pop him. 

[mike rossi]

nys biologist will not start season earlier because that is prime breeding the youth hunt then only allows 1 bird. practiceing calling and shed hunting disrupts birds as well if not more than the youth hunt. removing gobblers after the breeding is mostly done doesnt hurt a poligamist population. yes the answer better and respond better but thats because main breeding phase is going on. so you have to work a little to get your bird, its called HUNTING not shooting.

Your opening another can of worms - conservation lands, those acquired for wildlife with trust fund money should be seasonally closed, at least by the end of spring turkey season. The DEC has sinage (signs) and some WMAs are seasonally closed, but its mostly politics rule. With millions of acres in the state & federal park system, the public at large doesn't need to be tramping all over conservation lands during critical seasons. The shed thing is another new challenge - that activity has grown to the point that former bird dog trainers are now training & selling shed dogs and writing books about training shed dogs. As this activity grows in proportion with trophy deer hunting, conservation biologists will need revised strategies.

Back to the original thought, the youth season is still a variable the dec has a lot of control over. Besides, youth seasons were sold to us as a strategy to recruit youth into the sport. There has, as expected, been no indices published that show all these special youth seasons are actually working... At least they can do is move the youth season up to may 1 and put the regular season back. You seem to understand that conservation comes first regarding the regular season, but like the dec, make exception for the youth season. Not me, but anyway, I want to repeat what I said earlier, the youth hunt isn't even listed as a factor to explore, that makes no sense, especially with the time relationship between the start of youth hunts and the population drop...

Edited May 20, 2013 by mike rossi

[G-Man]

Mike, the biggest factor the Dec ignores is the actual numbers of fall turkey hunters, they can only go on tags sold, but fall and spring tags come together, no study has ever been done to see how many actually hunt bird in fall . As for youth hunt the amount of birds removed by them is small, any activity in the woods will disrupt wildlife patterns thats why youth hunt gives time off before regular season to activity slows down. The biggest probIem i see is properties broken up smaller and smaller and hunter density on those properties increases bird become more silent when predators are around be it us or natural. Population is still a factor of the hatch and poult survival.

y

[Lawdwaz]

I've killed all of 1 (ONE) fall turkey in my 31 or 32 years of turkey hunting in NYS. 

 

I have no interest in hunting fall turkey because of bow hunting deer but have had a shotgun & turkey gear in the truck just in case many times but never pull it out as the fire ain't there.....................

 

The one bird I killed is the only time I ever pulled the gun out and made a call for a fall bird.

 

I suspect many others are in the same boat and would rather bow hunt.

[2012_taco]

the last day of May can be as good as the first. I killed my best bird ever on May 29, he gobbled his face off. (literally)Plus I've heard birds gobbling well into June. Got woke up while camping near Lake George june 6 by a bird that gobbled for well over an hour. So keep the faith and bring lots of refills for the thermal cell!!

[mike rossi]

Mike, the biggest factor the Dec ignores is the actual numbers of fall turkey hunters, they can only go on tags sold, but fall and spring tags come together, no study has ever been done to see how many actually hunt bird in fall . As for youth hunt the amount of birds removed by them is small, any activity in the woods will disrupt wildlife patterns thats why youth hunt gives time off before regular season to activity slows down. The biggest probIem i see is properties broken up smaller and smaller and hunter density on those properties increases bird become more silent when predators are around be it us or natural. Population is still a factor of the hatch and poult survival.

y

I think on the dec web page it does mention fall hen harvest as a possible issue, but I am not sure. They collect legs in the fall, mostly for age data which gives insight to population trends. Since they incorporate that "parts survey" into their analytics, I assume they are getting a fair amount of cooperation from hunters in reporting. Of course many people don't report, but the dec doesn't need very close numbers to predict trends, ie. is the population growing, shrinking, or constant.

The biology literature, which guides or should guide management decisions such as hunting seasons, consistently advises against hunting immediately after the winter flock break up which coincides with the bulk of mating and gobbling. Assuming the May 1 date follows that, the youth weekend is smack center when it should not be. In areas were turkeys are down the youth season is questionable. In areas were hunters are complaining about lack of gobbling activity, the impact of the youth hunt on gobbling is not a far-fetched prediction either. Keep in mind, I am not disagreeing that the regular season misses the primary gobbling peak, that is not the point.

Hunter density does effect gobbling, in no hunting zones the birds gobble their heads off. I hear you about natural predators suppressing gobbling, but I never read anything in the lit. about it, but that doesn't mean its not there or not true if its never been studied. That seems like a very complicated thing to model so I doubt it can be studied, but I never been the smartest guy in the room either...

I think the dec also mentions hatch and survival as well. A lot of that hedges on the dreaded word "habitat" but it is also luck of the draw favorable weather. The dec also postulates even tropical storms Irene & sandy may have impacted birds. This all builds up to a simple reality: We have limited control over predators and zero control over weather events, but we can control how hunting seasons are structured and protect habitat.

Edited May 21, 2013 by mike rossi

[mike rossi]

Mike, the biggest factor the Dec ignores is the actual numbers of fall turkey hunters, they can only go on tags sold, but fall and spring tags come together, no study has ever been done to see how many actually hunt bird in fall . As for youth hunt the amount of birds removed by them is small, any activity in the woods will disrupt wildlife patterns thats why youth hunt gives time off before regular season to activity slows down. The biggest probIem i see is properties broken up smaller and smaller and hunter density on those properties increases bird become more silent when predators are around be it us or natural. Population is still a factor of the hatch and poult survival.

y

Good call, I reread that article and learned the dec is doing a study like that, go to the last page (26) of this pdf article from their website.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/nyturkeyresearch.pdf

They are going to study hens for 2 years, then possibly tweak the fall hunting zones, and then study another 2 years...