Heck, it's the law. You gotta comply.

[Mr VJP]

If they pass a law that is just anti-gun and designed to make criminals out of as many gun owners as possible, with the goal of turning you into a felon so they can take all of your guns, do you applaud the police for enforcing it?

 

http://washingtonexaminer.com/warning-d.c.-cops-under-orders-to-arrest-tourists-with-empty-bullet-casings/article/2535216

[Early]

I find very little to applaud the police for.

[Doc]

If they are doing their job, they have to enforce it. If they can't do their job, they need to find some other line of work. I don't applaud anyone for doing what they are paid to do. And if they are going to accept a wage for enforcing the law then I expect them to do what they have contracted to do ..... or resign. If I don't like it then it's up to me to get involved in changing it.

[Sogaard]

http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/18163-warning-dc-cops-under-orders-to-arrest-tourists-with-empty-bullet-casings/?p=232238

[covert]

Doc, I have read in several places now your comments on LE "doing their jobs".  Where do you draw the line on the "just doing my job" thing though?  That's what the concentration camp guards in Europe and the internment camp guards in the US said during WW2.  Ours didn't torture, rape and murder millions of people but they did confiscate the property of and lock up American citizens without due process, so it's happened on our soil before.

 

I am not saying that enforcing the SAFE act is at the same level as gassing millions of Jews, Slavs, etc. but using that claim is a slippery slope.  People have used less justification for doing some pretty heinous stuff and seeing the way some individuals in LE conduct themselves, I shudder at the thought of allowing anyone to be able to fall back on their job as protection.

[tuckersdaddy]

If they are doing their job, they have to enforce it. If they can't do their job, they need to find some other line of work. I don't applaud anyone for doing what they are paid to do. And if they are going to accept a wage for enforcing the law then I expect them to do what they have contracted to do ..... or resign. If I don't like it then it's up to me to get involved in changing it.

 

Do they? 66mph on the interstate is breaking the law. when was the last time you received a ticket for 66 in a 65 zone? when was the last time a ticket was issued for an open pepsi in the cup holder? its an open container law not an open beer law. most seasoned officers understand the difference between 'serve and protect' and 'enforcer of the state'. Those that dont are the ones that need to resign. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

Open container laws are for alchohol, not just any open container.

[ants]

A lot of cops, especially old school cops, will look the other way when it comes to ridiculous "laws" like most of the SAFE Act scam, and this no spent shell law. The problem is that they can enforce such nonsense if they choose to or are pressured/ order to.

[Doc]

Doc, I have read in several places now your comments on LE "doing their jobs".  Where do you draw the line on the "just doing my job" thing though?  That's what the concentration camp guards in Europe and the internment camp guards in the US said during WW2.  Ours didn't torture, rape and murder millions of people but they did confiscate the property of and lock up American citizens without due process, so it's happened on our soil before.

 

I am not saying that enforcing the SAFE act is at the same level as gassing millions of Jews, Slavs, etc. but using that claim is a slippery slope.  People have used less justification for doing some pretty heinous stuff and seeing the way some individuals in LE conduct themselves, I shudder at the thought of allowing anyone to be able to fall back on their job as protection.

I believe that all people should do the job they are being paid for. If a time comes that they don't like the job they are being paid to do, the thing to do is to resign. It really is no more complicated than that for a law enforcement officer in this country. What really makes me uncomfortable is a LEO picking and choosing what laws they wish to enforce and who they pick and choose to enforce them against. This is where some real abuses can occur and where some real needed enforcement can conveniently slip through the cracks. We have a legal system that relies on each member doing a specific duty. That system does not rely on LEOs taking on the responsibilities of the judicial branches of our government. That is not their job or their right. If they encounter a conflict, they have the option of getting another job.

 

Also, as you mentioned there is absolutely no comparison in scale or content between any U.S. law that is likely to ever be passed, and the Holocaust. So your hypothetical is not even in the realm of this discussion. Our LEOs are never faced with that kind of decision and if they ever are, I would expect them to take their complaint to a higher level. If that doesn't resolve their conflict, they simply resign. Nobody is holding a gun to their head. 

[Doc]

A lot of cops, especially old school cops, will look the other way when it comes to ridiculous "laws" like most of the SAFE Act scam, and this no spent shell law. ........

That does not make it right. Imagine a legal system where cops answered a call if they felt like it..... Or broke up a fight only if they were in the right neighborhood..... Or stopped a burglary only when they felt in the mood....or let a criminal walk if they happen to like the guys story. Yeah, all these things do happen, but that doesn't make it right. When it comes to our protection, I think we would rather not have their actions based on how they felt about what was going on. The fact is that if there is a law on the books and they witness a violation of that law, and they ignore it, they are not doing their job. And of course this stuff gets even more important when we are talking about felonies......like we are.

[Early]

We are fast becoming a police state, Doc. Covert makes more sense than you do.

[Doc]

We are fast becoming a police state, Doc. Covert makes more sense than you do.

Oh my gosh ..... not another "the sky is falling" guy.....lol. The world is getting filled with conspiracy fanatics. You know that sort of thing is fun to fantasize about as long as you don't get to tangled up in actually believing it all.

[sits in trees]

Oh my gosh ..... not another "the sky is falling" guy.....lol. The world is getting filled with conspiracy fanatics. You know that sort of thing is fun to fantasize about as long as you don't get to tangled up in actually believing it all.

Kinda like reality shows, somehow people are just drawn to watching those damn things, but it worries me when people start talking about them like they are the real thing....

[ants]

That does not make it right. Imagine a legal system where cops answered a call if they felt like it..... Or broke up a fight only if they were in the right neighborhood..... Or stopped a burglary only when they felt in the mood....or let a criminal walk if they happen to like the guys story. Yeah, all these things do happen, but that doesn't make it right. When it comes to our protection, I think we would rather not have their actions based on how they felt about what was going on. The fact is that if there is a law on the books and they witness a violation of that law, and they ignore it, they are not doing their job. And of course this stuff gets even more important when we are talking about felonies......like we are.

 

I understand but Im talking about laws that have reached the level of sit coms. "You can have 10 rounds in your magazine when you're at the range but if you have 10 rounds in your mag, in your own home, to protect your family, you are now a criminal" ..."your semi auto shotgun with a pistol grip is fine, but take two minutes to install a thumbhole stock to the same gun and you're now a criminal"

Im not a "the sky is falling" type guy but I do think that self serving politicians are willing to devise ridiculous, nonsensical laws that purposely infringe upon the rights of honest citizens. I would absolutely not enforce such laws. Call me what you will.

[Doc]

Here's what bothers me about a lot of this thread. It really sounds like a lot of guys are engaging in wishful thinking. Seriously, it does sound like there is an underlying thought that believes that we have no action required because there are no law enforcement people who would or should enforce anti-gun laws. I'm here to tell you that there will be law enforcement people who will do their duty. If by chance one of them decides to turn their head, there are plenty of others that won't. And we should not be banking on the hope that they will not do the job they are being paid to do.

 

Instead of hoping for the impossible, we need to approach all this in a very serious way and rely on our own resources to make these laws go away. Further we need to do our best to make those legislators who voted for the so-called Safe Act, very, very, sorry that they did. We need to make a political statement on election day that is remembered by all future successfully elected legislators. We need to support those candidates that did vote against the Safe Act to ensure their re-election. We need to send follow-up letters and emails explaining why we voted the way we did. We need to support those organizations that are carrying on lobbying efforts on our behalf (with both our membership and any other forms of support) . We need to support those organizations that are bank-rolling and conducting the legal battles against the Safe Act. We also need to make reasonable, and logical and well thought out public statements in the editorial pages of our local newspapers and any other public media explaining the positions of gun owners. What we do not need to do is to start pinning our hopes on the law enforcement people spearheading some kind of revolt for us by refusing to do their duty to enforce the law. They are working men and women who take their jobs seriously and are not in any position that requires them to make more sacrifices than any of us. I for one, do not expect them to sacrifice their jobs or their duties to uphold the law. I don't think any of us have the right to demand that. Especially since most of us have not even scratched the surface on things that we as individuals can do.

[covert]

The Holocaust didn't start at the Holocaust and I don't believe we are there yet, but I do believe we are rapidly approaching a tipping point where if the right (or wrong) thing happens we could go either way. 

 

Our Government employees were faced with that decision in 1942 when they rounded up American citizens of Japanese ancestry and put them in camps. 

 

You are making my point for me though, even if some do resign there will always be those who will enforce the law no matter how wrong it is just because "it's their job".  The news has stories nearly every day of "bad" or "rogue" cops who do things like tase little old ladies for not getting out of their car fast enough.  What I am afraid of is when enough of your normal LEOs (who I actually do believe are in the majority) decide that they can no longer do the job because of the bad laws resign, all we will be left with are the sadists and the guys with the super-cop complex who get off on stuff like that.

[Doc]

So, let's say I were to buy into all this doom and gloom stuff. How about I even go along with VJP's call to arms. I decide I am going to become a felon and disobey every law I can figure out an excuse to disobey. I guess I kind of become the lowlife scumbag criminal that I currently have no use for. Why not since I now believe the cops will side with me and not arrest me since they obviously have the power to set their own agenda apart from the other branches of government.

 

So I guess the next logical "patriotic" thing to do is to go join some militia and live in a bunker on some compound. Start gathering up as much diesel fuel and fertilizer as I can steal. And since my aim is now to overturn the government, the great revolution begins. I'm still wondering about my new band of friends and felons and why I would trust them to come up with a new form of government that isn't worse than the former.

 

Oh damn .... Wait a minute, this stuff is so stupid and ridiculous that I can't even pretend it. What makes people entertain themselves with such rubbish? Does anybody even bother to think through with these wacko imaginations? What is the fascination with all these conspiratorial fantasies? I can't even work myself into that kind of mentality using my wildest powers of imagination. I guess I just haven't seen enough Vin Diesel or Rambo movies yet .... lol.

[Early]

What "stuff" is so stupid??  Surely the "stuff " in the SAFE ACT is stupid...The militarization or our police forces is ridiculous.  Now....what is it you find so stupid and ridiculous??

[ants]

Im not preaching any "dooms day" stuff and Im not counting on the police to ignore any portion of the SAFE act. My opinion is that these laws are so over the top that I would not enforce them and I would not think any less of a cop who refused to enforce them.

A lot of Police agencies have publicly announced their opposition to recent gun control laws and numerous agencies have stated that they will not enforce them. Has that ever happened with any other laws ? Are these "rouge" cops that should be fired ?

[covert]

No, we continue to fight the soft war as hard as we can in the hopes that we never have to fight the hard war.  But what is your plan for if it does come to confiscation?  Turn in all of your guns and just take up fishing?  Turn them in and rely on or hope for some politician to grace the proles with a moment of his "valuable" time to hear your concerns before dismissing you out of hand and going back to looting whatever treasure we have left?  I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the 2nd has nothing to do with all of the enjoyable side benefits. 

[ants]

Doc....If a law was passed tomorrow that said that you must surrender ALL of your firearms, would you comply ??  Would you expect the police to enforce this law? Do you draw the line at any point? or is your thought that  " a law a law" and should always be enforced?

[Doc]

No, we continue to fight the soft war as hard as we can in the hopes that we never have to fight the hard war.  But what is your plan for if it does come to confiscation?  Turn in all of your guns and just take up fishing?  Turn them in and rely on or hope for some politician to grace the proles with a moment of his "valuable" time to hear your concerns before dismissing you out of hand and going back to looting whatever treasure we have left?  I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the 2nd has nothing to do with all of the enjoyable side benefits. 

I will not become a felon. I am a believer that there is a judicial solution (courts), or applying pressure on legislators to reverse their position. In case nobody has realized it or not, we do have some of those activities in motion all ready. And we have the appropriate elections that will eventually get here. Don't you think it is a tad premature to be talking armed insurrection or other felonious activities? At the very least, these legal activities are the things that I will exhaust before slipping over to the side of lawlessness. I guess I just have a whole lot more respect for the law than some. I know it is fun to talk the Rambo talk, but before anyone thinks it such a piece of cake to become a felon, you maybe want to learn a bit about the process and the consequences. There is a huge difference between talk and actually facing the situation.

 

So, what is the master plan if confiscation does become a reality? Do we wall up our guns behind the drywall and in-between the uprights? Bury them in an iron box out in the yard somewhere? Do we wait to get caught and give them an excuse to forcibly remove all our guns because we now have a felony conviction? How do you feel about meeting Ben Dover as your cell-mate? Do we break out our house windows and commence an armed stand-off. I mean, let's get serious here. You all know how those things end. I'll tell you one thing, you had better find more reasonable alternatives instead of just relying on lawless behavior, or kindly cops who will refuse to enforce the law, because I really don't think either of those choices are going to work out well for you. It really is time to contemplate some serious and realistic ways to fight these encroachments instead of cultivating Rambo fantasies. It's time to rein in our fictional views of the world and start concentrating on responsible ways to turn this nonsense around. I listed a bunch of things a few replies back that apparently didn't catch much attention of the gung-ho Rambo fantasizers. I find that most of the people that are eager to cop the law-breaker scenario are not even serious enough to send out a simple e-mail when these bills are proposed. And judging from the low percentage of gun owners that are members of the NRA, my guess is that damned few even support any of the gun advocacy (lobby) groups. The point is that all this law breaking and revolutionary talk and nonsense about cops not enforcing felony laws, are just the lazy man's way of doing nothing. At least that's the way I see it. I know that sounds awful hard-core, but those who are serious about the issue are already planning and scheming about the next election and how to send a permanent message to any would-be politicians about how they should vote on these kinds of laws. They are supporting some of the gun advocacy groups that have the real resources to fight this nonsense and seeing to it that they are counted in the struggle for gun owner's rights. People who are seriously concerned about the direction of gun laws are busy doing something, anything, about it, not sitting back and spouting all these movie themes and dooms-day scenarios.

[Doc]

Doc....If a law was passed tomorrow that said that you must surrender ALL of your firearms, would you comply ??  Would you expect the police to enforce this law? Do you draw the line at any point? or is your thought that  " a law a law" and should always be enforced?

First of all the whole scenario is flawed because they would have to eliminate the 2nd amendment first, and that is simply not going to happen. But let me give you an idea of where I draw the line. Any law that has been passed and survives the test of constitutionality and all court tests by the judicial branch (yes, we have courts to deal with that sort of thing), is a legitimate law that should be abided by the citizens. Further, I expect the police to do the job they are paid to do without throwing their personal opinions and biases into it. They too are charged with upholding the laws of the land and the dictates of the Constitution. They have no business interpreting anything. That is the role of the judicial branch.

 

My God people do you believe in this country or not? I mean our system of government is what I believe in. Do you all want to trash it? This discussion is beginning to sound like some banana republic or third world country that has their annual uprising and stays forever in a state of internal revolution. Is that what you are all looking for? Hey leave me out of that nonsense. Like I said, I believe in this country and it's system of checks and balances, and it seems to work a lot better than anything the internal terrorists and militias might come up with. I am seriously wondering why I would even have to say that.

 

[Early]

Our "system of government" which you so believe in now includes hi-tech surveillance of private citizen communication...unjust laws hastily passed...highly militarized govt. police forces...reduction in civil liberty...etc, etc. It is the right of every American citizen to question/challenge the government.  And, yet, you call them "internal terrorists".  What is wrong with you?

[josephmrtn]

First of all the whole scenario is flawed because they would have to eliminate the 2nd amendment first, and that is simply not going to happen. But let me give you an idea of where I draw the line. Any law that has been passed and survives the test of constitutionality and all court tests by the judicial branch (yes, we have courts to deal with that sort of thing), is a legitimate law that should be abided by the citizens. Further, I expect the police to do the job they are paid to do without throwing their personal opinions and biases into it. They too are charged with upholding the laws of the land and the dictates of the Constitution. They have no business interpreting anything. That is the role of the judicial branch.

 

My God people do you believe in this country or not? I mean our system of government is what I believe in. Do you all want to trash it? This discussion is beginning to sound like some banana republic or third world country that has their annual uprising and stays forever in a state of internal revolution. Is that what you are all looking for? Hey leave me out of that nonsense. Like I said, I believe in this country and it's system of checks and balances, and it seems to work a lot better than anything the internal terrorists and militias might come up with. I am seriously wondering why I would even have to say that.

 

Sorry doc but even tho i might have agreed with you a couple years ago i dont anymore, "they" WILL get the 2nd as well as the others if we dont take some action to stop them... i read that since this NY UN-SAFE ACT has been passed out of the several 100,000 "assualt rifles" believed to be owned in NYS they only have had several 100 registered... I believe that NY gun owners are fed up! and we will win thru mass non compliance.

 

I still do doc but i no longer believe in our government... sure there may be a few good apples in politics but overall our gov officials need to be kicked out of office, we need to re-ellect some people who will say what the people think not what the money waiving power hogs think... 

 

sorry if i get a little fired up but i agree w Mr. JVP that something has to change if we dont want this country to turn into a communist or dictator style controlled state withing the next couple 100 yrs...

 

Oh well..... i dont think im gonna be a politician so i better just shut up lol lol