DEC proposed AR's

[Culvercreek hunt club]

You carry all 3 and wound it with the bow, slow it down with the shotgun and finish it off with the ML.

[Doc]

That is a list of "Alternatives" no proposals, big difference.

Yeah, I really didn't get the whole purpose of including that in the syllabus. None of it is anything that they were even commenting on pro or con. Definitely is not a list of items that have DEC support.

[nyantler]

w

IL, WI, OH, etc. etc. etc. all have short gun seasons and manage deer numbers just fine and argubaly better than us. It's not illogical to say that we can't do the same...shorten the season and still manage the numbers effectively.

 

AR isn't a tool that is merely implemented and everything "returns" to normal. You eliminate a % of the pool to be harvested and remove choice. OBR provides choice - shoot anything you want. Once you are done, you are done.

 

AR is just bad ju-ju. Simple as that.

Those states have always had shorter seasons... NY's longer seasons are right in line with the decreasing hunter numbers over the last 40 years... I didn't say it couldn't be done.. I said there would be many other considerations that would have to happen as well for those particular ideas to make sense... AR's have already shown to be affective "everywhere" they have been used. You can search anywhere they have been used and find that there is not one example of where they have ever shown evidence of being a bad management tool. This is not about whether they are liked or disliked it is simply a fact that has never been successfully disputed... and if you think some hunters are upset about AR's... tell them they can take one buck only and their season will be shortened after having years of being able to take multiple bucks and having over 2 months to hunt then sit back and watch that backlash... it will make the AR backlash look trivial...whether you, I or anyone else thinks its a good idea. As for removing choice... you remove their choice of taking two bucks and having a little more time in the woods to do it. You really shouldn't let your hatred for AR's get in the way of common sense.

[phade]

Common sense? AR is common sense? Your world is twisted, sir.

 

AR is a poor management tool for a variety of reasons, amongst hygrading, removing choice of buck harvest, and the fact that it would still require major changes to the management system to accomdate a statewide use of AR (even AR catered to specific regions) - similar to any other change anyone here has proposed. If AR was common sense, there would be MAJOR push from biologists, the QDMA, and all of the major university labs saying to do so statewide/regionally on a governmental/agency level mandate.

 

AR isn't plug and play. You want people knocking on the door with fire and pitchforks - try telling those non and low DMP units they can only shoot bucks with 3 points a side. You want to decide on 3 or 4 point a side rules in historically rich buck hunting counties? The fact is - and this is as much of a fact as your common sense statement - is that AR is nothing more than a veiled attempt to control others' decision making process on what they choose to pull the trigger on so those who want AR, can have big bucks behind every tree.

 

You don't have big bucks on the wall or running on your ground? Become a better hunter - NY has plenty of big bucks. Become a better land or resource manager. Make AR the rule on your private ground if you so feel inclined. Have that discussion with the neighbors, etc.

 

Jeremy Hurst is our state's deer guru. Like him or hate him, he is our man. If he was convinced it was "common sense"....there wouldn't be the position the DEC has on it today. So, your "common sense" that you portray isn't exactly sound.

 

And trust me, if AR was the end-all be-all, the QDMA would be on board for mandates across the board. They are not. What's that say?

 

The last thing we need is more legislation. Period.

 

One more thing - this notion that hunter numbers are declining - shows you are slowly losing touch with the hunting populous. Hunting numbers have been ticking up - NSSF, QDMA, and even NY license sales indicate it. The upticks have been big in archery, ML, and even female hunters. Is it perfect? No. Is is much better and not "on the cliff" bad like it was 10-15 years ago? Yes.

 

We had a huge thread about it earlier this year and showed that hunter numbers are slightly on the rise as a trend - not a 1 or 2 year bump, but a slow, steady uptick, sort of the like the economy.

Edited September 27, 2013 by phade

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Yeah like QDMA has all the answers. Read some of those thoughts and you have people doing TDM while they are thinking they are doing QDM!!!

 

I do agree that AR would not be good in all parts of the state. But in many im sure alot of guys would vote for it!

[phade]

Yeah like QDMA has all the answers. Read some of those thoughts and you have people doing TDM while they are thinking they are doing QDM!!!

 

I do agree that AR would not be good in all parts of the state. But in many im sure alot of guys would vote for it!

 

That isn't the QDMA's fault...that's the idiots practicing TDM passing it on for QDM. It's like saying Algebra and Geometry are the same. One is completely different than the other - despite both being math (or a management style). Do you raise deer? If so, I can understand your frustration with the QDMA and their take on captive whitetail herds. You never answered that question last time.

 

Back to the general topic.

 

I don't want "guys" running the hunting season. I want sound principles paired with sound management and hunter tools. A balance between biology, hunter desire, and management. Face it, most of the AR crowd doesn't know AR from a hole in the ground - they simply think it means bigger bucks running everywhere to shoot at. If you deny that, then you must lack "common sense" as NYAntler says.

 

After 10 years of Antler Point Restrictions in Mississippi, research conducted by Mississippi State University revealed 4 serious problems.

1. High Grading causes reduced antler mass and tine length in bucks of all age classes.

2. A class of permanently protected inferior bucks is created. This group becomes larger over time, using up valuable resources and doing much of the breeding.

3. Saving yearling bucks does not increase the harvest of mature bucks in the future.

4. The total buck harvest drops significantly over time.

 

Antler size within the same classes decreased 5-9 inches on 2.5 yo and 10-17 inches on 3.5 yo.

You stated that there has never been evidence of AR being a bad management tool...well, there you have it. Every study I have ever read on AR has shown a decrease in antler size per age class after long-term AR implementation. Permanently protecting inferior bucks is also bad for management because the numbers compound over time - I could care less about genetics in nearly all cases, but allowing bucks that won't meet the AR standards to compound and live long lifespans, consuming resources and breeding...that's not sound management.

 

It all boils down to trigger control. Educate, don't legislate.

Edited September 27, 2013 by phade

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yeah like QDMA has all the answers. Read some of those thoughts and you have people doing TDM while they are thinking they are doing QDM!!!

 

I do agree that AR would not be good in all parts of the state. But in many im sure alot of guys would vote for it!

 

Oh look, a deer farmer that is anti QDMA lol. Imagine that!

 

Sorry FSW, had to bust your nuggets a little.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Oh look, a deer farmer that is anti QDMA lol. Imagine that!

 

Sorry FSW, had to bust your nuggets a little.

 

Ha Ha...You know that QDMA crap is a joke. They hook up with tree huggers and animal rights groups to try a fight against us and the whole time they are blind to the fact that the group they are partners with now has them in their sights to try and take out next. They want all high fence and low fence hunting gone!

 The only problem i have with those that represent QDMA is the two faced talking of them all. Kind of like the fact that their fearless leader in fact has a vested intrest in a deer farm in Pa!!!  Or maybe its the fact that they say they are against high fence farming and hunting yet when you look at their fundraiser every year they auction off high fence hunts that are donated to them and they put thousands of dollars in their pockets from the high fence guys.

 Or maybe its guys like Don H that talk smack about high fence yet he raises Whitetails and has for years but he does not talk about the 20 to 50 grand a years in checks that he makes from selling semen and 200in bucks for high fence hunters.

Or maybe its the way they tried to use CWD as a way to try and slow down our growth because they see their way of life going down hill every year but they see more and more fence go up all across the country because most states cant manage their public herds and public hunting grounds so more and more folks are visiting high fence ranches every year.

 But besides all that. When it comes down to it im just like the rest of them and i practice QDM so i can have better TDM on my 700 acres!

 

Note..I am one of the 546 farms that raise whitetails in Ny state!!!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

QDMA's formal position statement.

 

http://www.qdma.com/news/faq-qdmas-stance-on-captive-deer-breeding

 

 

[steve863]

"The process of selective breeding typically requires animals of known and often narrow pedigrees to be intensively handled and frequently medicated. Bucks from which semen is collected often are physically or chemically restrained and subjected to electro-ejaculation, whereby an electric probe is inserted into the buck’s rectum and energized until ejaculation occurs."

 

 

Oh man, those poor bucks.  And here we were thinking it was bad enough going to a urologist for a digital prostate exam.  If there is any reason to ban deer farms this would be it!!  

 

 

Edited September 27, 2013 by steve863

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Talk about a pucker factor!

 

[phade]

Your bedroom must be boring, Steve.

 

LOL.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I just knew this thread was going to fall off a cliff when I read Steve's comment...lol

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I think I remember FSW saying he didn't favor the electric method. Don't remember the comment but it was something about being all manual.

[steve863]

Your bedroom must be boring, Steve.

 

LOL.

 

 

It's OK actually.  Not like we are swinging from the rafters while we do it or anything, but it's OK.  

 

I somehow think Elmer Fudd got some ideas from that electro-ejaculation paragraph, however.  I'm sure he will clue us in tomorrow morning about it.

[phade]

Now that explains it all with him...ha.

 

So many deer, so few hands.

[steve863]

I just knew this thread was going to fall off a cliff when I read Steve's comment...lol

 

 

Don't say that to loud, Culver.  Wouldn't want anything to happen to poor Four Season while he repels himself down in Letchworth.  LOL

[pawle76]

I have yet to see how any AR improves buck caliber. Places that have had AR's in place for over a decade like in PA. can't say that it works or not from what I hear. So until they can prove that it works I'm against any restrictions period.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ha Ha...You know that QDMA crap is a joke. They hook up with tree huggers and animal rights groups to try a fight against us and the whole time they are blind to the fact that the group they are partners with now has them in their sights to try and take out next. They want all high fence and low fence hunting gone!

 The only problem i have with those that represent QDMA is the two faced talking of them all. Kind of like the fact that their fearless leader in fact has a vested intrest in a deer farm in Pa!!!  Or maybe its the fact that they say they are against high fence farming and hunting yet when you look at their fundraiser every year they auction off high fence hunts that are donated to them and they put thousands of dollars in their pockets from the high fence guys.

 Or maybe its guys like Don H that talk smack about high fence yet he raises Whitetails and has for years but he does not talk about the 20 to 50 grand a years in checks that he makes from selling semen and 200in bucks for high fence hunters.

Or maybe its the way they tried to use CWD as a way to try and slow down our growth because they see their way of life going down hill every year but they see more and more fence go up all across the country because most states cant manage their public herds and public hunting grounds so more and more folks are visiting high fence ranches every year.

 But besides all that. When it comes down to it im just like the rest of them and i practice QDM so i can have better TDM on my 700 acres!

 

Note..I am one of the 546 farms that raise whitetails in Ny state!!!

 

Actually, Im an officer in a branch. I also attended the National Convention this year, and there was one fenced whitetail hunt auctioned off, but the fenced area was 11000+ acres in Texas. Not what I would call a canned preserve hunt. The QDMA does not oppose all whitetail farming activities, as the link that Culver posted shows.

 

Brian Murphy has interest in a PA deer farm? Do tell, because i cant come up with anything about that. Who is "Don H"?

[Five Seasons]

i read this proposition in yesterday's email from NYB... who remain nuetral.

 

I still don't know how I feel. The 1 buck tag I certainly disagree with. I would prefer to be able to take 2 bucks with bow if I could. I wouldn't have an issue with shortened gun season. I think it might even make the season a little more fun. Kind of like a holiday...

 

Part of me starts to think I'm in favor of ARs for bow, but then I wake up and I remember about how much harder it is than gun, I couldn't imagine doing that. How would you ever get a kid to fall in love it? "Jimmy, you need to get the buck within 25 yards undetected and he needs to stop broadside... oh and it can't be a small buck. Don't let him catch you draw!" what a joke...

 

Another option is to earn a buck by shooting a doe first. but I would hate the fact that some doe would be left to rot by the horn hunters. I'm a horn hunter and would have no problem shooting a doe and putting her in the freezer, and i believe i'm in the majority but not everyone thinks that way. i know of guys who don't even eat venison. They give it away and keep the racks.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Belo

[phade]

Actually, Im an officer in a branch. I also attended the National Convention this year, and there was one fenced whitetail hunt auctioned off, but the fenced area was 11000+ acres in Texas. Not what I would call a canned preserve hunt. The QDMA does not oppose all whitetail farming activities, as the link that Culver posted shows.

 

Brian Murphy has interest in a PA deer farm? Do tell, because i cant come up with anything about that. Who is "Don H"?

 

Don Higgins

[Culvercreek hunt club]

i read this proposition in yesterday's email from NYB... who remain nuetral.

 

I still don't know how I feel. The 1 buck tag I certainly disagree with. I would prefer to be able to take 2 bucks with bow if I could. I wouldn't have an issue with shortened gun season. I think it might even make the season a little more fun. Kind of like a holiday...

 

Part of me starts to think I'm in favor of ARs for bow, but then I wake up and I remember about how much harder it is than gun, I couldn't imagine doing that. How would you ever get a kid to fall in love it? "Jimmy, you need to get the buck within 25 yards undetected and he needs to stop broadside... oh and it can't be a small buck. Don't let him catch you draw!" what a joke...

 

Another option is to earn a buck by shooting a doe first. but I would hate the fact that some doe would be left to rot by the horn hunters. I'm a horn hunter and would have no problem shooting a doe and putting her in the freezer, and i believe i'm in the majority but not everyone thinks that way. i know of guys who don't even eat venison. They give it away and keep the racks.

 

 

If it is EAB the why not mandatory check in. The nothing is left int eh woods. If you don't want to check them in there still won't be anything left in the woods becasue you can just REPORT you got one and don't have to leave the computer...lol.

 

Our state it too varied in topography,  habitat, hunter density and deer density to have any statewide plan that fits everywhere.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Culvercreek hunt club

[nyantler]

Common sense? AR is common sense? Your world is twisted, sir.

 

AR is a poor management tool for a variety of reasons, amongst hygrading, removing choice of buck harvest, and the fact that it would still require major changes to the management system to accomdate a statewide use of AR (even AR catered to specific regions) - similar to any other change anyone here has proposed. If AR was common sense, there would be MAJOR push from biologists, the QDMA, and all of the major university labs saying to do so statewide/regionally on a governmental/agency level mandate.

 

AR isn't plug and play. You want people knocking on the door with fire and pitchforks - try telling those non and low DMP units they can only shoot bucks with 3 points a side. You want to decide on 3 or 4 point a side rules in historically rich buck hunting counties? The fact is - and this is as much of a fact as your common sense statement - is that AR is nothing more than a veiled attempt to control others' decision making process on what they choose to pull the trigger on so those who want AR, can have big bucks behind every tree.

 

You don't have big bucks on the wall or running on your ground? Become a better hunter - NY has plenty of big bucks. Become a better land or resource manager. Make AR the rule on your private ground if you so feel inclined. Have that discussion with the neighbors, etc.

 

Jeremy Hurst is our state's deer guru. Like him or hate him, he is our man. If he was convinced it was "common sense"....there wouldn't be the position the DEC has on it today. So, your "common sense" that you portray isn't exactly sound.

 

And trust me, if AR was the end-all be-all, the QDMA would be on board for mandates across the board. They are not. What's that say?

 

The last thing we need is more legislation. Period.

 

One more thing - this notion that hunter numbers are declining - shows you are slowly losing touch with the hunting populous. Hunting numbers have been ticking up - NSSF, QDMA, and even NY license sales indicate it. The upticks have been big in archery, ML, and even female hunters. Is it perfect? No. Is is much better and not "on the cliff" bad like it was 10-15 years ago? Yes.

 

We had a huge thread about it earlier this year and showed that hunter numbers are slightly on the rise as a trend - not a 1 or 2 year bump, but a slow, steady uptick, sort of the like the economy.

You continue to let your hatred for AR's cloud the reality... AR's.. when implemented are 100% successful... you can have your opinion about them but continuing to deny that fact makes no sense... for one I never mentioned mandatory AR's.. just antler restrictions in general... whether voluntary or otherwise.. my point which your anger keeps making you not see has nothing to do with the idea of forcing AR's it has to do with comparing the acceptance of the one buck idea or shorter season idea with AR restrictions... nothing more..

 

As for hunting numbers there is a sharp decline in numbers over the last 40 years... I'll grant you the slooooowwww "uptick" in the last few years, but the number is still low enough to have caused the increase in DMP's over the last 25 years and a lengthening of some seasons to keep pace with the growing whitetail population...and if common sense doesn't tell you that hunters are not prepared to give up an extra buck or have their season shortened then, again, you are letting your hatred for Antler restrictions cloud your common sense.

 

Tell me again too what new legislations have been passed in the last 25 years that have made hunting worse for NY hunters. I think I already covered how ridiculous that concept is somewhere here in the last few days.

Edited September 27, 2013 by nyantler

[Culvercreek hunt club]

You would stand a better chance requiring  a hunter to cut of a finger in payment for a license than getting majority support for a shorter gun season in NY

[nyantler]

 

You would stand a better chance requiring  a hunter to cut of a finger in payment for a license than getting majority support for a shorter gun season in NY

I honestly believe that they would rather have mandatory AR's than have there seasons shortened or lose the opportunity to take an extra buck if given the choice. That was the point I was trying to make... take a week away from bow hunters, and you better get out the way of the stampede.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2013 by nyantler