Deer regs decisions coming

[Jennifer]

I am not trying to stir anything up, just educate myself. What is the difference between taking a 1.5 year old or a 2 year old buck, vs. a doe of the same age? Are you still not taking a 'younger' deer out of the herd? I know there are social differences between bucks and does beside the obvious biological roles they fill, but I am genuinely trying to understand how passing you a young buck helps the herd any more than passing a young doe. I have been told that AR would increase the number of deer in our low density area, but haven't really had it explained to me why or how this could be.

I've got my opinions but I'm trying to keep an open mind and learn about this...

[bluecoupe]

I'm not about to enter into this no-win discussion again but I did write the DEC Commish.  with my thoughts on the subject.  If they won't include me in their little poll I'll include him in mine. ;-)

[azhuntress]

I'm one of those hunters that have a fascination with antlers so I won't shoot a buck

unless it is worthy of going to the taxidermists BUT I don't have a problem with those

hunters that don't care about antler size.

I can say from my observations from hunting in PA that the antler restrictions that have

been effect for over a decade have really made big buck sightings a lot more common.

PA hunters really frowned about the antler restrictions the first couple of years

but now most hunters are in favor of it since many have killed a buck bigger than they

ever had before.

[dhuntley2]

Jennifer you are right you are taking a young deer out of the herd. The argument for an AR to increase the numbers would be not shooting the 1.5 year olds and then they would live one more year, thus more deer. That is if the 1.5 year olds do not have 3 points on a side or better, which in that case the AR does nothing to protect that buck. If you are in a low density area with good habitat do not shoot the doe. Shooting the doe really kills her and any of her potential offspring.  To increase deer numbers you would have to pass both the doe and the young buck.  If that young buck is a 6 point with the proposed AR he is going to get shot so in that case the AR does not work to allow that deer to age one more year. 

[ItalianHunter5]

Almost positive that New York is made up of more woods than fields and other agriculture, that's the advantage that the central states have over us. Honestly, I could care less about shooting a big buck. You can't eat the antlers or do anything with them except put them on the wall or make a pair of rattling antlers. Gun season is a good time to fill our tags and have our group get together and have a good time. Gun season is the only time we have to enjoy ourselves because we don't hunt with the bow and it's only 4 weekends. Do they notice that possibly giving more doe tags means that the overall deer population will probably go down? When shooting a doe, you are pretty much killing 3 deer because most of the time, well at least in my area, a doe has 2 fawns each year. I guess NY only cares about shooting a big buck rather than saving the population...

Edited November 27, 2013 by ItalianHunter5

[cdmckane]

The population isn't at risk. The reason they're giving out DMPs is to reduce the population.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[ItalianHunter5]

I know that, but they are considering limiting bucks to 1 and throwing in another doe tag. Right now with 1 person we are able to take 4 if you bow/muzzleloader hunt and get both dmp's you apply for. When you think about it and consider the long run, if they keep that regulation, you won't see as many deer in your area.

[bubba]

so sad

[RTGobbler]

Really I do not think there is not a single answer for this problem. Each WMU needs to have its own policies. I have hunted down state (Westchester, Orange), the mountain Catskills (Greene), the low Catskills (Delaware, Dutchess) and the Adirondacks. All of these places have completely different deer populations, and habitats. You cannot make a single policy that is good for all of them, you can only have a policy that is poor for all. 

 

In the mountains of the Catskills where I have spent most of my hunting time there are very few deer, so few that if you SEE antlers it is an accomplishment. In the last few years our camp has taken 2 to 3 bucks between 20 or so guys for all seasons (bow, rifle, late bow/muzzleloader). But we have seen countless doe already this season. So how do you tell someone who is lucky to see antlers once in 5 years they have to count before shooting? I think that is tough. There are also no DMP's in 3A and I sometimes wonder if the large number does does not hurt the population as a whole.  

 

We have had a voluntary 3-pt rule out of camp for a number of years now, and then the DEC made it mandatory in 3A. I can say we have not see much improvement in the deer. I think this comes down to nutrition and habitat, more than antler restrictions. These forests are old growth with very little browse, so if you get a bad mast crop year the deer will struggle. The deer also have less cover to hide in with old growth forests. I wonder if the DEC might be better off selectively logging parts of the older growth forests to encourage low browse food and good cover. We have started with a number of acres of food plots at the base of the mountains, but a few acres of food plot for thousands of acres of forest does not help much. 

 

In the 3P area its different. I have passed on a number of different small bucks during bow and rifle season, and the first doe I see will be in the freezer. I might take a nice six, but even without the antler restrictions I am going to look for a better deer. I seen more deer here in a season then in 5 years up in 3A. This means my approach to hunting is different, and how I choose what to shoot and what not to shoot. 

 

In short the rules for 3P would not help 3A (and vice versa) and they certainly would not work for WNY and the Adirondacks. The DEC should be worrying about making the deer population thrive, not the nWhy spend te umber of points on a deers head. If the population thrives with proper population management, proper habitat management, and nutrition management then the antlers will follow. They should worry about deer management, not antler management. 

 

As for the idea that the season should be shorter, I am not sure that is a good idea. Our sport and passion is one that is on the decline. By limiting access to the sport even more I worry that it will discourage people from getting out in the woods. 

 

Just my 0.006 cents

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I am in northern zone so it is way more than nine days. Ohio only has a 7 day gun season how do they succeed?

Must be much better hunters than most of those in NY. Because there harvest totals are basically equal to pus.

[NFA-ADK]

I don't like the one buck rule and I don't think shortening the year will help at all.  AR restrictions should be removed, let the hunter choose what he wants. 

[A Sportsman]

RT Gobbler, good post. You make a lot of sense. Seems like every time AR is discussed on here we always wind up admitting that the state's deer population varies depending on where you are and no one management strategy will fit all areas. Besides nutrition and haboitat, in some areas consecutive nasty winters do more damage to deer heard than what hunters may or may not take. 3A is a great example of such an area.

I also hunt 3A for rifle every year and agree that there are not very many deer in those deep woods mountainous areas. I'm willimg to bet sections of the dacks may have more deer density than sections of the catskills. That said, I still enjoy 3A, as there are few other hunters and some quality mountain deer that you can work your tail off for.

[ItalianHunter5]

I agree, RTGobbler had a very good post. Makes a whole lot of sense. I deer hunted Tug Hill up by the Adirondacks a few times, every time I went out it was either absolutely nothing or the same doe and fawn. That's 6N, and it is very much so like 3A. He made some valid points in his post, some stuff the DEC should listen to...

[Catskill Hunter]

Rtgobbler, I too have hunted the Catskills for over 35 years and have experienced the same as you. back in the day any buck was an accomplishment. however in the last 3 to 5 years I have seen a big difference in the quality of bucks I see, mostly during bow. I actually have a lot more bigger bucks on cameras than small ones. I actually had a nice 8 in my field at night right after dark the day after the opener. that was unheard of by me to even see a deer in my field after opening day. I am not sure what the reason is, AR's have not been around long. I have not seen the pressure like back in the day either. bucks are growing bigger by me for some reason. back in the 80's the dmp frenzy pretty much wiped out the hunting by us for many year's. the hunting is getting good again and I would hate to see a lot of does killed here especially with our coyote problem.

up in Cooperstown where I have family its a whole different ballgame. lots of does so this discussion is WMU specific and shouldn't be statewide. I think a 1 buck rule in the Catskills will get a lot of does killed and buck's won't get tagged in a lot of case's.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Forum Fiend v1.0.1.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Thats why they should not do ar but to shorten the season. 1 buck rule and no guns during the rut. That would save many bucks lives to grow older and would still get doe tags where they are needed.  They say only a handfull of hunters fill all their tags and a huge percent go without a harvest even with our 3 month season. Way to long of a season up here. my area here has just as much Ag as say Livingston cty but they have twice as many deer and many much bigger!

[Doc]

Probably the smartest thing ever done by the DEC is when they broke the state up into WMUs. Now the smart thing to do is to use that WMU system, and stop coming up with these one-size-fits-all kinds of solutions. I cringe every time I hear these statements about how NYS needs a statewide AR system, or how the state needs an Earn-A-Buck requirement, or how the state needs a one-buck limit. We have a WMU system so that hopefully, management activities and regulations can be tailored to the local habitat and populations. Now, we can argue about whether that is effectively being done or not, but the concept is sound. None of these schemes applies to all of NYS and there is no point in talking like there is some magic single bullet that will solve every situation across the state.

[RTGobbler]

Catskill Hunter, interestingly I think we have seen the opposite in our area (Blackhead Mtn). In recent years it seems to have been a drop in deer. You still get an occasional bruiser, but mostly doe and small antlered deer. This is in contrast to 10-20 years ago where there would be many more deer taken and see through out the season.

 

The last few years have been very poor seasons for harvesting deer up there, but I think that can have a lot of relation to the weather. Between the winter storms taking down trees, early warm ups in the spring followed by harsh freezes, and poor mast crop that has to play a huge role. Some of the older guys claim that when all the land left private hands, and went to the state the downfall started because no one was managing the land anymore. 

 

But even our two experiences, both in the same WMU are different which goes back to my thought that there is no one answer for every location. Also we need to look at the long term success of the population as well. Yes, we might be seeing better or worse deer in the last 2 or 3 years, but what is the trend for the last 10, 15, or 20? I don't have that data, but the DEC should. We cannot use AR, or any other tool, as a short term solution just to get bigger antlers.

 

In the end I think AR might not be the best answer for any place. I am not sure (from maybe not fully understanding) how it will help the deer population as a whole. Seems short sighted and trophy based to me. I might prefer a 1 buck rule, or maybe a 1 buck 1 doe rule to limit the taking of many bucks, but still giving the hunter opportunities for hunting, or something else we haven't even thought of . Either way DEC needs to look at each WMU and decide what the answer is for creating a healthy and stable deer population (both bucks and does).

[Catskill Hunter]

Agreed

[SteveB]

A question for those supporting shortening the regular season in the SZ:

How many days should the regular season be?

 

[cdmckane]

A question for those supporting shortening the regular season in the SZ:

How many days should the regular season be?

Given the cost of the licenses, I'm all in favor of bow and regular season being the same length. $29 for 21 days of regular season vs $21 for a 45 day bow season doesn't seem quite right to me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[dbHunterNY]

Yup. The same state agency that just sent me an observation log for deer season in the Mail. I got it YESTERDAY!!!. Most of my deer hunting is already done for the season.

 

at least you got something.  can you use it next year?

[newbreed]

What is the fascination with antlers ??   Do you use them as a coat rack ?

its a pissing contest hunters want to be able to say they shot the biggest and best. 

[the blur]

I never had a fascination with antlers until the internet.   A deer was a deer, was a deer.    Last week I'm in the woods, and I see a nice size rack.   My heart starts pounding.  Hands start shaking.  And it's all YOUR fault.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

In my view the majority of Hunters in NY are gun hunters. shortening that season IMO is a mistake and will effect participation. I am not a fan of our current tag system and would have no problem with every big game hunter getting a single buck tag to utilize in what ever season they want. I also think that the antlerless tags for the special season should go away. Nuisance tags should go away and the entire state should be managed for population control through the DMP lottery system. I think there should be mandatory reporting of tags in a system that is visually verified before next years tags can be issued. If you fill it out and use it then it will be presented prior to the next years tag and recorded. If you don't bring it in you don't get one for next year. Get rid of the signing over of DMP's. .  

[Culvercreek hunt club]

at least you got something.  can you use it next year?

I have no idea. I planned on reading it in detail tonight since I will be hunting this weekend.