Here's a fight starter

[jjb4900]

wasn't NY a one buck only state for many years before going to the newer system? I'm thinking the change was early 90's.....

[phade]

I agree with you that the hunter numbers were down however, the rules were not as applicable to those who did hunt.

How bout we find the number of deer all locals took year round to survive?

You cannot possibly tell me the herd was more balanced back then....no shot.

I was simply stating a fact overlooked by everyone, the top 2 deer taken in NY were in 1939, when AR was only something a pirate said and before people managed deer.

I am not knocking anyone's thoughts or opinions on this subject.

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I bet it was. Why? Both NYS records in the typical and non-typical still standing TODAY were taken in 1939.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

 

I believe two of the best things Ohio does is manage/time its gun season and OBR. Those two changes in NY alone would make a good portion of the state very likely to produce the caliber and quality of hunting many people want without limiting the choice for people like Steve to take a spiker.

Define "manage/time". does it equal shorten and outside of the rut?

[accman]

Our club has been using a 3 pt on a side for about 8 years now.  Before we'd get an 8 sometimes or couple of 6's, and a lot of spike and 4's.  Usually around 12 deer a year out of 25 hunters.  Since we implemented the program, we now get at least a couple of 10's or larger, and all the rest at least six pointers with an occasional 4 or 5.  This was done on a 650 acre area, with surrounding areas not following the same rules, taking does, buttons, and spikes. We dropped our first year with restrictions to 7 deer taken, but that was after a bad winter the previous year. After that we always had at least 10 and now the numbers are up.  We know of clubs close by that still shoot all the young ones and does, and all they get are spikes and 4's, and that's all they'll ever get. This year were going to a mandatory 5 pt rule, but most of us still won't shoot unless it's an older deer.  In fact, the owners okayed us taking a couple of does off the area, whereas we weren't allowed to before.  It's a lottery system for our guys, 1 hunter a day, and only the last week of rifle.  I'm sure that it won't be hardly be used cause we're so accustomed to not taking a doe anyway.    Isn't it better when your walking through an area and see a big rack rather than nothin but spikes.  It's called "buck fever" for a reason.  "Doe fever" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
 

[phade]

Define "manage/time". does it equal shorten and outside of the rut?

 

They are fluid - they've modified the gun season dates several times in the past 10 years to the conditions of the deer herd and the hunters. Case in point, they removed the second weekend this year, which was actually only a handful of years in existence. The Ohio DNR is proactive compared to the static nature of our DEC. If a change needs to be made, they do it. They don't talk about talking about it, and then ultimately do nothing or take a baby step that has minimal impact.

 

They base the season post-rut (for the most part) with the opener being Monday after T-day. Seasons ran 7-9 days in length in total. This does not include their MZ days.

[DROpTINE]

I bet it was. Why? Both NYS records in the typical and non-typical still standing TODAY were taken in 1939.

I'm not sure that those records are still held today because the herd was balanced then and to say so is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

It is a fact, however, that those deer grew that big without the state saying you couldn't shoot them until they had 3pts on one side.

There was no balancing of herds then.

Deer were shot for meat.

Does more deer equal better herd management?

Does the fact that there were probably as many hunters in the STATE at that time as there are in a single county TODAY have any bearing on those records?

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[phade]

I'm not sure that those records are still held today because the herd was balanced then and to say so is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

It is a fact, however, that those deer grew that big without the state saying you couldn't shoot them until they had 3pts on one side.

There was no balancing of herds then.

Deer were shot for meat.

Does more deer equal better herd management?

Does the fact that there were probably as many hunters in the STATE at that time as there are in a single county TODAY have any bearing on those records?

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You are right, but what the state did say was that there was NO DEER HUNTING BEFORE 1938-39 (in the context of modern era hunting). Period. Think about those apples for a second.

 

Look, they didn't have an open hunting season before that 38-39 season. The herd's going to be balanced when there's no hunting going on because natural law dictates it. There have been decades of open hunting since then...and we haven't come close to reaching a balanced herd possible when there is no open season.

 

Those two bucks remain at the top of the typical and non-typical list - even after decades of hunting, billions, maybe trillions, spent trying to improve the quality of deer hunting, with millions of hunters since. And they're still on top.

Edited October 30, 2013 by phade

[jjb4900]

You are right, but what the state did say was that there was NO DEER HUNTING BEFORE 1938-39 (in the context of modern era hunting). Period. Think about those apples for a second.

 

Look, they didn't have an open hunting season before that 38-39 season. The herd's going to be balanced when there's no hunting going on because natural law dictates it. There have been decades of open hunting since then...and we haven't come close to reaching a balanced herd possible when there is no open season.

 

Those two bucks remain at the top of the typical and non-typical list - even after decades of hunting, billions, maybe trillions, spent trying to improve the quality of deer hunting, with millions of hunters since. And they're still on top.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/histdeernewyork.pdf

actually, unless I read the info. wrong, there were deer seasons prior to the 1938-39 season...check out the link.

[phade]

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/histdeernewyork.pdf

actually, unless I read the info. wrong, there were deer seasons prior to the 1938-39 season...check out the link.

 

Re-read my post.

 

The season last closed in 1929-1937. From there, modern era hunting has continued. In fact, there was ONE HUNTING SEASON at all between 1908 and 1937.

 

So, not wrong.

 

The herd wasn't hunted for 8 seasons, but really for all but one between 1908 and 1937.

Edited October 30, 2013 by phade

[BUCKANDAQUARTER]

1939 was 75 years ago. things have changes just a little bit. and the fact that the record hasn't been broken since then speaks volumes that something is out of whack.

Edited October 30, 2013 by BUCKANDAQUARTER

[phade]

1939 herd management  has nothing to do with now. I think the population of people and the population of hunters was quite a bit different. deer could get bigger in certain areas with less hunter presence. cities and towns have grown tremendously since 1939. hell even in the last 10 years. I think saying lets do it like they did in 1939 makes zero sense.

 

I don't think anyone is saying do it as they did then. It's just that the fallacy of a balanced herd is impossible with modern hunting.

 

You can better balance than what it is now, but it is never going to be as good as it was in 1939.

[ItalianHunter5]

I completely disagree with a shorter gun season, we in my family are only gun hunters and bow hunters get a month and a half before the gun season begins. They have a chance to take all the good stuff out of the area, doesn't make sense to me on why they even extended the bow season.

[phade]

I completely disagree with a shorter gun season, we in my family are only gun hunters and bow hunters get a month and a half before the gun season begins. They have a chance to take all the good stuff out of the area, doesn't make sense to me on why they even extended the bow season.

 

So, why can states with more deer manage better than NY with a shorter season?

[jjb4900]

Re-read my post.

 

The season last closed in 1929-1937. From there, modern era hunting has continued. In fact, there was ONE HUNTING SEASON at all between 1908 and 1937.

 

So, not wrong.

 

The herd wasn't hunted for 8 seasons, but really for all but one between 1908 and 1937.

I'm just seeing that closure for the western and central regions, I don't see that closure for The Catskills and The Adirondacks.....I have no idea what area those deer were shot

[phade]

I'm just seeing that closure for the western and central regions, I don't see that closure for The Catskills and The Adirondacks.....I have no idea what area those deer were shot

both in western.

[ItalianHunter5]

Exactly why they should never have extended bow season, keep gun season the same and bow season opening mid October like it used to.

[DROpTINE]

Phade I did not know that about pre1939, very interesting.

The following is not meant to be sarcastic or for me to sound like a d**k...

do you really think no deer were hunted during those years? Not even by the locals trying to live?

Did DEC exist then? (Serious ?)

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[agross]

I am all in for AR.  I hunted in Pennsylvania for the last 12 years up in Bradford County (just under Binghamton) prior to the AR being implemented, through its implementation and after up to about 2 years ago when the property my friend had was sold. 

 

From my experience the only down side is that maybe for 1 or 2 years you may have to pass on a spike buck because it doesn't have 3 pts (rule where I was) on one side.  After that it was great.  Then there were many small legal basket rack bucks and plenty of 100 inch or so 2.5 year olds and not to mention the  occasional 3.5 year pig.  And where I hunted they made any New York State land gun opener sound like a library.  The land where I hunted they started off opening day doing deer drives pushing everything and anything shooting like it was WWIII.  

 

IMO...If you are against AR, only after about one year you will then be able to shoot legal basket racks for your meat and at the same time not take away another's opportunity at a larger deer.  Since these animals are free ranging the only way to increase the age of the population would be state wide or WMU zone AR restrictions.  We have all heard the story of deer traveling a mile so the  only way it would ever work would to have it for everyone. 

 

  

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Phade I did not know that about pre1939, very interesting.

The following is not meant to be sarcastic or for me to sound like a d**k...

do you really think no deer were hunted during those years? Not even by the locals trying to live?

Did DEC exist then? (Serious ?)

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Depression era. If it walked it was shot

[phade]

Depression era. If it walked it was shot

 

I'm sure. Numbers were so low that seeing them was a victory. Balance wise though...probably as good as it gets.

[Doewhacker]

If so many are so gunho for letting deer "mature" then why are there still so many young bucks taken? Maybe because they are full of crap perhaps?

2.5 is still not mature nor all that impressive either, and yet guys in this thread even that talk the talk have no problem killing them. If AR supporters would just admit that killing a 2.5 yr old buck is all that matters I might be more accepting than when I hear the same line of balanced herd ect ect. It is and will forever be a social issue.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Doewhacker

[SteveB]

Doewacker - I ask the same question and never get a response. The vast majoruty talk about a mature buck but are happy with that 2.5 ( equal to a 13 year old boy in maturity) and not actual mature deer.

Then you have those who will pass a 4 pt but shoot an1.5 6 point - because their standard is 6 or better.

 

For most it is not really about "herd health" or actual mature deer. It is about a little older teenage equivalent buck and telling others to accept their standards.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

I'm sorry but many have asked how more mature bucks in the herd benefits the herds health. The answers sound like this to me "because there's more mature bucks and the rut is more intense".

It's like saying "girls are smarter because we're better".

"More mature bucks in the herd benefits the health of the herd because there's more mature bucks." Try again.

Hell I'll buy "the mature bucks protect the herd from danger" more than that.

[WesternNY]

So you both want everyone to respect your right to harvest a 1.5 year old but are gonna talk smack to someone who has chosen to take a 2.5 or 3.5 or whatever?  hmmmmm

 

For me it was a journey... when I bought my farm in 2007 I was back into hunting after a long break... I knew nothing of QDM.   I took a 1.5 year old 6 pt, my first bow deer.  That gun season I shot another 1.5 year old spike and a doe.

 

After that season I learned about QDM and the QDMA, I made a 8 pt or better rule... does were always given the green light.  2008 I took a 2.5 year old 8 pt.. nice buck, nothing grand, but a marked improvement over the 1.5's around here.

 

2009 I took a 4.5 yr old 9 pt, he weighed 198 pounds dressed

 

2010 tag soup, even no does.

 

2011 I still had the 8pt rule, but I didn't want to shoot a 8pt if it was a 1.5 year old, we do get a few 1.5 yr old 8's but not many.   I shot and never recovered what would have my biggest, he was likely 5.5   I ended up taking a 2.5 yr old 8 the last day I could bow hunt. ( I don't gun hunt much)

 

in 2012 I set the bar a tad higher 3.5 or bust.... Bow season last year I saw 6-7 bucks that I think were 3.5 in a weeks time, right before Sandy came through... seeking and chasing like mad.   Bow season came and went... I had a 5.5 140 inch buck at 52 yards no lane to shoot with the bow.   Opening AM of gun I took a 3.5 yr 9 point.

 

It is often a journey and a lot of guys will slowly increase the bar as seasons go by.  I follow basic QDM principles... pass on all 1.5 year olds and some 2.5 year olds..... so guest on my farm 8pt or better, for me 3.5 year old or better. 

 

A buck is not fully mature til 6, but that doesn't mean you need to wait for a 6, in fact if you do, you will burn yourself out.   Harvest goals, should be fun, a challenge, but realistic.  

 

This season has been slow.... I have a ton of scrapes, rubs, but no real seeking, no chasing, no response to grunts or bleats...and my deer sightings are down, way down.   Last yr around here the rut was in full seek/chase today.  Not the case this year.

 

[WesternNY]

I'm sorry but many have asked how more mature bucks in the herd benefits the herds health. The answers sound like this to me "because there's more mature bucks and the rut is more intense".

It's like saying "girls are smarter because we're better".

"More mature bucks in the herd benefits the health of the herd because there's more mature bucks." Try again.

Hell I'll buy "the mature bucks protect the herd from danger" more than that.

 

So let me play the advocate... how does killing 60,000  1.5 year olds help the herd?  Don't tell me keeps the herd density in check.. that gets done with does.

Edited October 30, 2013 by WesternNY