Looks like the NRA can lose.

[Doewhacker]

Hmm I wonder then how a handful of polititians seem to be able get such a great number of americans to buy into their crap... somehow a few have been able to take the money of many and squander it to the point of near bankruptcy... how could so many smart people not see what so few were doing right under their noses? It's because.. yes its possible that there are less smart people than there are those that need to be led arround by the hand

Thats sounds kinda like the same thing the other side is saying of you does it not? People are quick to beleive in anything the want to hear good or bad. Its not inteligence, it is the unability to see through the crap that is constantly thrown at us from every angle that is lacking in our country. People beleive all kinds of crazy stuff from both sides because they see it on TV or online or where ever and automaticaly its real and tangible to them even if it will never affect them.

People, for the most part, vote based on looks and tv commercials nowadays, not beliefs or ideas.

[nyantler]

some of us aren't quick to believe anything and have already done our homework and don't buy into the anti NRA sentiment by gun owners that are too cheap to put their money where their mouth is... my $700 life membership didn't bankrupt me and I don't feel duped by the NRA. If nothing else I have paid to be in the know about every single anti-gun legislation that comes down the pike. A small price to pay for staying informed about what's really going on... and I'll continue to pay until you or anyone else can convince me that the NRA doesn't serve its purpose as the largest gun rights advocate in the world

[Doewhacker]

some of us aren't quick to believe anything and have already done our homework and don't buy into the anti NRA sentiment by gun owners that are too cheap to put their money where their mouth is... my $700 life membership didn't bankrupt me and I don't feel duped by the NRA. If nothing else I have paid to be in the know about every single anti-gun legislation that comes down the pike. A small price to pay for staying informed about what's really going on... and I'll continue to pay until you or anyone else can convince me that the NRA doesn't serve its purpose as the largest gun rights advocate in the world

There is nothing there to argue, I was just stating my veiw on the people that are led by the hand as you put it. 

[nyantler]

yeah, but I think the smart few are not easily led... the ignorant masses are more the problem

[Doewhacker]

yeah, but I think the smart few are not easily led... the ignorant masses are more the problem

Yup and those masses vote and control the few... backwards ain't it..haha

[nyantler]

fortunately many of them don't vote

[Mr VJP]

I have to wonder if some of you know how many gun laws are already on the books in this country?  Laws that were passed because some gun owners just thought they were "reasonable".  Laws that infringe on your 2nd Amendment rights with impunity until they can finally be dragged in front of the SCOTUS.

Washington D.C. suffered under an unconstitutional gun ban for 30 years.  People died because of it.  The SCOTUS finally reversed that law and once and for all made it clear to all in America that the 2nd Amendment is an individual, not a collective, right.

A man in NJ was sentenced to 7 years in prison because a judge didn't understand a gun law and thought he was guilty.  Thank God the new Governor Chris Christie let him out.  These attacks on law abiding gun owners happen every day with entire collections being confiscated because the laws are too convoluted to understand.  And they have no effect on criminals or crime.

So if you think you don't need a group like the NRA to defend your 2nd Amendment rights, you are seriously uninformed and naive.  Gun banners are not going to stop trying and they are not going away.

I'm just amazed that there are people who don't understand this among us in the hunting community.

[steve863]

I'm just amazed that there are people who don't understand this among us in the hunting community.

You should also be amazed at yourself for actually thinking that ALL hunters think exactly like you!  LOL  There would be way more than 6 million members then if they did.  By the way where do you come up with 6 million NRA members?  I think this number is being inflated substantially here.  From what I heard it's closer to 4 million.

[Caveman]

some of us aren't quick to believe anything and have already done our homework and don't buy into the anti NRA sentiment by gun owners that are too cheap to put their money where their mouth is... my $700 life membership didn't bankrupt me and I don't feel duped by the NRA. If nothing else I have paid to be in the know about every single anti-gun legislation that comes down the pike. A small price to pay for staying informed about what's really going on... and I'll continue to pay until you or anyone else can convince me that the NRA doesn't serve its purpose as the largest gun rights advocate in the world

I won't try and convince you about anything I'll just give you some food for thought.  Keep in mind that the information about legislation you're getting is coming from a group that wants you to feel a very particular way about said legislation.  If you have time and want an objective idea, read the actual bill.  But that's the difference between you and me I think.  I look at something and critically examine it, it's source, and the circumstances under which it was written.  You take things at face value.  That may work for you but it's something to think about. 

As for my alleged fence riding...the reason things don't get done is because no one in either party is willing to compromise.  Nothing gets done when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.  You and I talked about marriage in today's world on another thread.  Imagine a marriage without compromise where your wife wanted one thing and you wanted another and neither of you ever budged.  I doubt that marriage would last.   

[Doc]

Lol ....... Some of this sounds like rhetoric from the Brady bunch. It occurs to me that the biggest fear that the anti-gunners have is a strong gun ownership advocacy organization. It is definitely not in their best interest to have an organization like the NRA growing in membership. So I would expect them to work on hunters and other gun owners, trying desparately to discredit the organization and turn back as many perspective new members as possible. In order to make the most advances in removing firearms from private individuals, it would definitely be useful to prevent gunowners from organizing into one influential unit.

I mention this only because after reading several replies on this thread, I don't believe there is anyone in the anti-gun community who is making as passionate an anti-NRA set of arguments as some of those replies that I have seen here. I've got to say that it does really make you wonder a bit just what the real motivations are.

[Caveman]

Here's my issue Doc.  They have been hurling acorns at me and claiming it's the sky falling for so long if the sky really did fall I wouldn't believe them anymore.  I was a member for 2 years and in that time I got one notice to write my congressman, at the same time every two weeks like clockwork they sent me a letter telling me "your rights are under attack! (We can't tell you how) but send us money right away!"  I paraphrased of course lol.  But then I turn on versus and Wayne Lapierre isn't in Washington fighting this grand urgent battle that was described in the letter on my coffee table, he's hunting Cape Buffalo in Africa! 

It's easy to be annoyed and that's why I'm keeping my money now. 

[jimbodwb]

And your membership dues helped pay for that excursion to Africa. Like I said, the NRA is no better than any other lobbyist in Washington.

[steve863]

I mention this only because after reading several replies on this thread, I don't believe there is anyone in the anti-gun community who is making as passionate an anti-NRA set of arguments as some of those replies that I have seen here. I've got to say that it does really make you wonder a bit just what the real motivations are.

What motivations?  Some of you just can't accept that the MAJORITY of gun owners in this country don't agree with everything the NRA says.  If they did, I have no doubt the NRA would have 30 million members or more.  What is so difficult to understand here?  Are we all supposed to be clones and all think the same?  I for one was a member for 15 years, until one day I asked myself why?  I surely disagreed with a good many things they said and most of all don't buy into their theories that the easy availability of guns has no direct effect on crime rates in this country.  We as hunters surely know that it's a whole lot easier killing a deer with a gun than it is with anything else.  The same goes for killing humans in my opinion.  Buying a gun in many parts of this nation is as easy as buying candy and many end up in the wrong hands thru perfectly "legal" transactions.  I am not convinced this doesn't have a direct effect on crime rates like the NRA claims.  Thus I am no longer a member and never will be again.

[Caveman]

There's that and the fact that anyone who knows anything about basic social research can poke a million and a half hole in the statistics they spout all over.  It honestly was embarrassing because these stats were so critically flawed and people assumed as a member that I bought into them.   

[Doc]

Here's my issue Doc.  They have been hurling acorns at me and claiming it's the sky falling for so long if the sky really did fall I wouldn't believe them anymore.  I was a member for 2 years and in that time I got one notice to write my congressman, at the same time every two weeks like clockwork they sent me a letter telling me "your rights are under attack! (We can't tell you how) but send us money right away!"  I paraphrased of course lol.  But then I turn on versus and Wayne Lapierre isn't in Washington fighting this grand urgent battle that was described in the letter on my coffee table, he's hunting Cape Buffalo in Africa! 

It's easy to be annoyed and that's why I'm keeping my money now.

What you are describing is an experience with the NRA that is considerably different from my considerable number of years of membership with them. I have gotten legislative alerts that are fully backed up with information about who, what, where, when, and why, on a fairly constant basis. Further, for those that are creatively challenged, there have been occasional sample letters, complete with names and addresses of the appropriate legislators. Also, their magazine includes all kinds of articles that will keep you up-to-date on the current anti-gun activities of those individuals and organizations that would disarm the public, as well as details of victories for the pro-gun forces. And yes, Wayne LaPierre is entitled to an occasional vacation, I would suppose..... lol. I do not demand that he completely stop having a life nor do I feel it is necessary.

Frankly, I do not see where anyone could ask more for the relatively small amount of money for membership. Perhaps it is the notion of getting something for nothing that makes us believe that we should be entitled to reap the benefits of services of such organizations without financial support. But I do understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch. I guess I am just one of the suckers that actually pays his way for the maintenance of the rights that I believe in. I suppose it's also necessary for me to foot the bill for those that want the free ride also. It has to be recognized that the kinds of resources required to lobby legislators and to support legal challenges is substantial. It's hard to imagine it any other way.

I don't know, it just seems kind of like the right thing to do to put my money where my mouth is. I have never been one much to accept the benefits of other's hard work without some form of compensation. I hate the thought of being a free-loader, so the small amount that is required for membership is really a bargain considering that they are exerting influence that I as an individual absolutely cannot. I'm glad that there is an organization that is dedicated to protecting gun owner's rights, because by gosh there are plenty of other well organized, well funded organizations that are diligently working the system to severely limit, or dissolve our ability to privately own guns and ammunition and enjoy shooting sports without undo harrassment. That notion is not a scare tactic created by the NRA, and in this era of information technology, shame on anyone who thinks that is the case.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Way to dance around the issue with blinders on.

All I have to say is stay in school, and open your eyes. You have alot to learn.

 

A lot to learn about what? Free thought? Realism?  I'm work too hard for my money to send it away to some lobbyist in Washington to defend a right that's not going anywhere in the first place.  When someone tells me the sky is falling and says he needs my money to continue holding it up, you bet your a** I'm looking upwards before I hand over my dough.

You have alot to learn about the way things work in the world. Not saying I dont as well, just saying that you are young and ambitious, but dont go confusing your book smarts for knowing everything. 

There are plenty of people in England and other countries that said they would never be forced to give up their guns, and that they didnt need to defend that right or privilege, kind of like what you are saying. Well, look where that line of mistaken thinking got them. The proof is in the pudding.

[Caveman]

Here's my issue Doc.  They have been hurling acorns at me and claiming it's the sky falling for so long if the sky really did fall I wouldn't believe them anymore.  I was a member for 2 years and in that time I got one notice to write my congressman, at the same time every two weeks like clockwork they sent me a letter telling me "your rights are under attack! (We can't tell you how) but send us money right away!"  I paraphrased of course lol.  But then I turn on versus and Wayne Lapierre isn't in Washington fighting this grand urgent battle that was described in the letter on my coffee table, he's hunting Cape Buffalo in Africa! 

It's easy to be annoyed and that's why I'm keeping my money now.

What you are describing is an experience with the NRA that is considerably different from my considerable number of years of membership with them. I have gotten legislative alerts that are fully backed up with information about who, what, where, when, and why, on a fairly constant basis. Further, for those that are creatively challenged, there have been occasional sample letters, complete with names and addresses of the appropriate legislators. Also, their magazine includes all kinds of articles that will keep you up-to-date on the current anti-gun activities of those individuals and organizations that would disarm the public, as well as details of victories for the pro-gun forces. And yes, Wayne LaPierre is entitled to an occasional vacation, I would suppose..... lol. I do not demand that he completely stop having a life nor do I feel it is necessary.

Frankly, I do not see where anyone could ask more for the relatively small amount of money for membership. Perhaps it is the notion of getting something for nothing that makes us believe that we should be entitled to reap the benefits of services of such organizations without financial support. But I do understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch. I guess I am just one of the suckers that actually pays his way for the maintenance of the rights that I believe in. I suppose it's also necessary for me to foot the bill for those that want the free ride also. It has to be recognized that the kinds of resources required to lobby legislators and to support legal challenges is substantial. It's hard to imagine it any other way.

I don't know, it just seems kind of like the right thing to do to put my money where my mouth is. I have never been one much to accept the benefits of other's hard work without some form of compensation. I hate the thought of being a free-loader, so the small amount that is required for membership is really a bargain considering that they are exerting influence that I as an individual absolutely cannot. I'm glad that there is an organization that is dedicated to protecting gun owner's rights, because by gosh there are plenty of other well organized, well funded organizations that are diligently working the system to severely limit, or dissolve our ability to privately own guns and ammunition and enjoy shooting sports without undo harrassment. That notion is not a scare tactic created by the NRA, and in this era of information technology, shame on anyone who thinks that is the case.

You and I have two very different experiences with the NRA, hence our very different opinions.  As for gun rights.  There's a constitutional amendment that's not going anywhere to protect them backed by two very recent Supreme Court decisions...not the NRA. 

[Caveman]

Way to dance around the issue with blinders on.

All I have to say is stay in school, and open your eyes. You have alot to learn.

 

A lot to learn about what? Free thought? Realism?  I'm work too hard for my money to send it away to some lobbyist in Washington to defend a right that's not going anywhere in the first place.  When someone tells me the sky is falling and says he needs my money to continue holding it up, you bet your a** I'm looking upwards before I hand over my dough.

You have alot to learn about the way things work in the world. Not saying I dont as well, just saying that you are young and ambitious, but dont go confusing your book smarts for knowing everything. 

There are plenty of people in England and other countries that said they would never be forced to give up their guns, and that they didnt need to defend that right or privilege, kind of like what you are saying. Well, look where that line of mistaken thinking got them. The proof is in the pudding.

I don't claim to know everything Buckhunter.  What I advocate for is something that I believe is lacking in all areas of this country, both parties.  That is critical analysis of information.  No one looks at things and actually takes the time to think about them anymore it seems.  They hear and react.  There are worse things to be than young and ambitious. 

And when we examine the cases of disarmament in other countries lets not forget something we have that they don't, a constitutionally declared right backed by the Supreme Court.  Two very hard things to overcome as an anti-gunner.

[Doc]

Some of you just can't accept that the MAJORITY of gun owners in this country don't agree with everything the NRA says. 

Just a brief word about the notion that all members of any advocacy group must "agree with everything" that that group says. That is quite an unrealistic requirement that is destined to make all organized representation impossible. Nothing will please the anti gun factions more than to realize that the majority of gun owners demand such an impossible requirement. Because I assure you that they are not inhibited by such ridiculous notions.

[steve863]

There's that and the fact that anyone who knows anything about basic social research can poke a million and a half hole in the statistics they spout all over.  It honestly was embarrassing because these stats were so critically flawed and people assumed as a member that I bought into them. 

Good for you Wildcat!  Good to know that there are others here who don't buy into their stats without question.  Of course there must be MILLIONS more like us out there having the same questions since the NRA membership is so small in comparison to total gun owners. LOL  Of course the NRA members here won't accept this and will tell us that we are all cheap and that they are paying our way. LOL  They can think what they wish!

[growalot]

Perhaps this is just a little too simplistic for some.......but my opinion is ...and this goes for all and that includes this government as well...

"Any organization is only as good as the magnifying glass that it's members hold up to it"

Now if you want to question motive...I have question your motive in not wanting members to question the organization they belong to.....

[Doc]

As for gun rights.  There's a constitutional amendment that's not going anywhere to protect them backed by two very recent Supreme Court decisions...not the NRA.

The interesting thing is that there is so much that can be done to the practicality of gun ownership and usage that can work around the 2nd amendment while leaving it completely intact. As one simple example, the amendment speaks of arms, but says nothing about the ammunition. It speaks of the right to bear arms, but does not speak about the harrassing regulations and restrictions and costs that can be levied or applied to such activities. There are no limitations expressed or implied about what arms, or the specific nature of those arms that we have a right to. I think you get the drift of what I am getting at. There are ways of making a right impractical to exercise. Many of those ways have already been used. Many more are being developed all the time.

[steve863]

Some of you just can't accept that the MAJORITY of gun owners in this country don't agree with everything the NRA says. 

Just a brief word about the notion that all members of any advocacy group must "agree with everything" that that group says. That is quite an unrealistic requirement that is destined to make all organized representation impossible. Nothing will please the anti gun factions more than to realize that the majority of gun owners demand such an impossible requirement. Because I assure you that they are not inhibited by such ridiculous notions.

No, I don't have the notion that all members MUST agree on everything, but it is pretty obvious to me that the MAJORITY of gun owners have enough issues with what the NRA touts to not become members.  If they all had such strong feelings that the NRA is our only saving grace to gun ownership in this country, they would no doubt join up also.

[Mr VJP]

This has been an eye opening thread for me.  Now I am more convinced then ever that gun owners who are not NRA members are part of the reason we have to fight anti-gun legislation.  They are OK with a lot of it.  They are willing to accept limits on their 2nd Amendment rights because criminals use guns to commit crimes.

Why not enforce the laws that would incarcerate the criminals?  Why not use the death penalty?  Why limit freedoms of good American citizens in an attempt to control criminals?  Why make lawful gun owners pay the price for the acts of criminals?

I think it is about time NRA members start to shun these people.  Not an NRA member?  No hunting with me, or on my land.  No guns sold to you in my store, or by me.  No entry into a gun show.  No membership in a gun or hunting club.  No help from a gunsmith.  No ammo sales to you.  Nothing that a gun owner will not be able to do if we lose this fight in the end.

After today, any gun owner I meet who is not a member of the NRA will not even get me to speak to them.  They are not worth my attention and are now less than zero, they're also the enemy.  I used to think there was hope for them, but you guys have convinced me there isn't.

[Doc]

Perhaps this is just a little too simplistic for some.......but my opinion is ...and this goes for all and that includes this government as well...

"Any organization is only as good as the magnifying glass that it's members hold up to it"

Now if you want to question motive...I have question your motive in not wanting members to question the organization they belong to.....

LOL .... No I am not a secret official of the NRA bent on covering up some deep dark secrets of the organization. I'm just a simple rank and file member who believes that I should support an organization that believes in the rights of private individuals to own firearms. Simply, I believe in putting my money (and support) where my mouth is. If you have questions pertaining to that organization, great. I would expect you to try to find out the answers to those questions. That's what I would do. It may turn out that you wind up with some flat out disagreements with some of their positions. Then you might want to balance those disagreements against what happens if we are completely disorganized and in a state of defensive chaos as our anti-gun friends would prefer. That's what I do. That's why I am still a member.