The direction of deer hunting

[growalot]

Moog...

 

I've said it before and no one will change my mind...
A big ole mature doe is way harder to kill than a rutting buck....Doe are not just fighting for their survival but their fawns  as well...not a sentimental view... just survival and they are the ones teaching survival to their young....I can do something as simple as shift my foot in a stand and get picked off by a old doe...

buck... eat.. breed... fight and sleep and are pretty singularly minded in each of those activities...I've walked up on sleeping buck...never on a sleeping doe...snuck in on buck fighting....climbed out of a stand in the wide open when they've been eating in a field....things an old doe would have let the county know I was doing..

[Four Season Whitetail's]

BTW - I have no issue with high fence hunts, just not my thing.  WE all recognize the difference between killing a deer on one of those hunts vs. free chase.  Just like I can recognize the difference between those who hunt less populated areas than I do - a smaller buck or doe may be a bigger trophy to any hunter in those areas.  Its all a matter of perspective.  If you see 10 deer every sit, a doe may be no big deal.  If its the only deer you see all season, killing that doe is a big deal.

Yes Sir, and then you kill that doe because she is all you saw...Then What?  Did you do yourself a favor by killing the lone doe in the area. Its such a fine line with some many different areas and so many different hunters wanting different things. 

 Thats the main reason i have no problem with somebody hunting wherever they can. If its high fence then so be it. If its with an outfitter then so be it. Take your chance on state land. Good luck to ya. Whatever it takes to make that hunter happy and enjoy their time!

 Bottom line is the direction of deer hunting for many will be bleak when it turns into a money sport!

[A Sportsman]

I don't mean to sound like an elitist or a purist, but I do have a problem with high dence hunt. Especially for an animal that already exists in the wild in the same geographic area that the high fence is in.

One time I mentioned my stance on this in a bow shop, while unknowingly in the company of a guy who was into this type of thing. By his reaction you would have thought I dropped a "mother" joke on him.

Sorry but when I think about someone hanging a giant up on their wall that was shot at some ranch with 10 other bucks watching, I label that person a phony.

I can appreciate the "to each his own" mantra, and I often go by that myself, but not here.

I think one saving grace in new york is the adirondacks and catskills state land. As push comes to shove, those of us willing to hunt these tough areas will continue to have our positive experiences. When and if those areas get ruined, it will be time to move away. But Hopefully that's at least a few generations away.

[moog5050]

Paid hunts = money sport - not too many paying for hunts when funds are low.

[moog5050]

Don't disagree Grow, but I see many more mature doe in early bow season than mature bucks.  That's why I always want to kill a mature buck.  That said, I am happy to take a doe too.  lol  I just haven't hunted long enough to have the crazy rut stories that some tell. 

[growalot]

 

 Bottom line is the direction of deer hunting for many will be bleak when it turns into a money sport!

 

It's already done that!...buying land isn't cheap...taxes are worse and how many times did I read on here about the cost of having to drive hours to get to their hunting spot...I'm assuming it cost to stay as well..Even I don't hunt camp as much because of gas prices...Electricity to run the pump and lights....nothings cheap....Then talk ammo and equipment...

 

I can't understand the no doe thing...for around here rarely have the herds been down that far...but those private land owners...ones that live with  and watch and talk about the deer  know when to set limits of their own....limits to off set both the states shoveling of DMP and the few neighbors that DO NOT allow ANY doe being shot...it's worked fairly well and I'd bet it's not an unusual thing that happens in areas with high density hunting.....ppl with leases I'm sure keep a close eye on not only their property but whats happening on surrounding properties in order to set goals...

 

The only bleak thing I see is the state doing what Arrow Flinger tried to do in making comparisons  such as Illinois and Iowa to NYS...this is why.... what I believe is a ......comparatively small.... group is able to get the DEC to mandate AR's.... over riding what has become a  growing common goal of individuals as to letting young bucks pass yet maintaining choice for all....That is the bleak turn of events...That is TV...$$$..and the looking down ones nose at any clean kill... be it doe or young buck..Owning or not owning...hunting private or public is irrelevant ...it's not the land that is at issue or what ppl do on it...it's the individual hunters perception of what a deer trophy is...now the state is trying to tell you what that should be...I believe there was a poster that indicated posting doe kills was irrelevant for a lack of a better term...really??!!...Don't worry about who has the money to hunt private land...worry about how many hunters are out there with those sort of attitudes

Edited January 2, 2014 by growalot

[Four Season Whitetail's]

It's already done that!...buying land isn't cheap...taxes are worse and how many times did I read on here about the cost of having to drive hours to get to their hunting spot...I'm assuming it cost to stay as well..Even I don't hunt camp as much because of gas prices...Electricity to run the pump and lights....nothings cheap....Then talk ammo and equipment...

 

I can't understand the no doe thing...for around here rarely have the herds been down that far...but those private land owners...ones that live with  and watch and talk about the deer  know when to set limits of their own....limits to off set both the states shoveling of DMP and the few neighbors that DO NOT allow ANY doe being shot...it's worked fairly well and I'd bet it's not an unusual thing that happens in areas with high density hunting.....ppl with leases I'm sure keep a close eye on not only their property but whats happening on surrounding properties in order to set goals...

 

The only bleak thing I see is the state doing what Arrow Flinger tried to do in making comparisons  such as Illinois and Iowa to NYS...this is why.... what I believe is a ......comparatively small.... group is able to get the DEC to mandate AR's.... over riding what has become a  growing common goal of individuals as to letting young bucks pass yet maintaining choice for all....That is the bleak turn of events...That is TV...$$$..and the looking down ones nose at any clean kill... be it doe or young buck..Owning or not owning...hunting private or public is irrelevant ...it's not the land that is at issue or what ppl do on it...it's the individual hunters perception of what a deer trophy is...now the state is trying to tell you what that should be...I believe there was a poster that indicated posting doe kills was irrelevant for a lack of a better term...really??!!...Don't worry about who has the money to hunt private land...worry about how many hunters are out their with those sort of attitudes

I am afraid the AR thing is already a done deal. Few numbers and letters at a time and when done very few non AR area will be left in the state of Ny. That hand writing is already on the paper im afraid!

[phade]

Don't disagree Grow, but I see many more mature doe in early bow season than mature bucks.  That's why I always want to kill a mature buck.  That said, I am happy to take a doe too.  lol  I just haven't hunted long enough to have the crazy rut stories that some tell. 

 

 

Like chasing a buck untold miles and being so out of breath you just collapse next to the thing?

[growalot]

 

Like chasing a buck untold miles and being so out of breath you just collapse next to the thing?

Lol ...You can't eat the rack and that case you couldn't eat the meat either....lol

I'd turn back and look for the doe ...

[moog5050]

Like chasing a buck untold miles and being so out of breath you just collapse next to the thing?

  OH that was CRAZY - just not specifically rut related.  Already have plenty of fun hunting stories just not necessarily due to the rut.  I guess the pics you texted of bucks everywhere while I was all alone in the "good stand" were as close as I got in the past two seasons.

 

Not sure I will ever have a better story than david chasing the buck in his socks, but I am willing to keep trying to one up.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The only bleak thing I see is the state doing what Arrow Flinger tried to do in making comparisons  such as Illinois and Iowa to NYS...this is why.... what I believe is a ......comparatively small.... group is able to get the DEC to mandate AR's.... over riding what has become a  growing common goal of individuals as to letting young bucks pass yet maintaining choice for all....That is the bleak turn of events...That is TV...$$$..and the looking down ones nose at any clean kill... be it doe or young buck..Owning or not owning...hunting private or public is irrelevant ...it's not the land that is at issue or what ppl do on it...it's the individual hunters perception of what a deer trophy is...now the state is trying to tell you what that should be...I believe there was a poster that indicated posting doe kills was irrelevant for a lack of a better term...really??!!...Don't worry about who has the money to hunt private land...worry about how many hunters are out there with those sort of attitudes

 

I agree 100%. The argument that people use to try to compare NY to those mid western states is delusional, and the worst thing for the sport. Those people generally watch too much TV and buy into too much of the commercialized propaganda. They are the guys that push the big money leases, ARs, etc etc etc. NY is NOT and NEVER will be like Iowa, Illinois and the like. There are too many factors that people can never realistically change here that prevent it.

[phade]

  OH that was CRAZY - just not specifically rut related.  Already have plenty of fun hunting stories just not necessarily due to the rut.  I guess the pics you texted of bucks everywhere while I was all alone in the "good stand" were as close as I got in the past two seasons.

 

Not sure I will ever have a better story than david chasing the buck in his socks, but I am willing to keep trying to one up.

 

In due time...everyone has good rut stories after a handful of seasons.

[Doc]

This has been one of the best threads that we have had here in a long time. The huge variety of viewpoints in our assessments of the future of hunting seems to cover a whole lot of ground. What is important to one doesn't mean a thing to others. But the thing is that there is a certain line of truth in each of the opinions. At least we don't have a lot of people here that are simply slapping on the blinders and saying all is well in the world of hunting.

[phade]

Everyone views the world from their own treestand. It's going to look a little different to all of us.

[First-light]

Some of this has been covered by previous posts. What I see changing from years ago (30) is that more and more land is closed to hunters. Years ago there were much less posted signs and a lot more courtesy when hunting. Now land is being posted and not hunted or hunted by few, stating these are "my" deer. I put in time to quality manage them and let them grow. So in return only a few get to hunt the property. I am not saying this is right or wrong it is just the trend. We also hear hunters complaining they don't see deer. Could this be because access and the style of hunting has changed? Less land more guys stand hunting. Everything has gotten more expensive also. This year I may change some things around and go to camp for longer stretches of time rather than every other weekend. I can remember hunting years ago and I walked on to another property. The owner saw me in the woods and waved me over. We talked and I told him who I was hunting with and he was more than happy to let me hunt his property. He pointed me in a direction on his property he knew that was free of hunters and I was on my way. Things have changed for sure.

[nyantler]

15 years is a long time to watch something grow, and grown it has. There will only be one end all be all and that will be no hunting at all. Let me ask. how much more land was made compared to how many more people were put on? We say we need to get more hunters in the sport!   To put them where????? On land already over run by orange with no deer in sight!!  I have been on both sides a long time. There are no new orgs that have not been there forever. There is only one in the battle that does not have all hunting stopped in their sights. 

 The guestion was..The Direction. Well there will only be a couple choices! 

 

Until they find a better way to control wildlife populations hunting will continue to exist... there is still plenty of public land that is relatively untouched by hunters... and those lands heavily hunted don't get much pressure more than a couple hundred yards from the main road. The stoppage of hunting will bring far worse consequences than just wildlife overpopulation. Those who really want to hunt will always find a place to plunk their butts to hunt whitetails.. those who don't won't, but it will never just end without something to take it's place... and so far nothing has been proven to be as affective a conservation tool as hunting..period.

[Doc]

Until they find a better way to control wildlife populations hunting will continue to exist... there is still plenty of public land that is relatively untouched by hunters... and those lands heavily hunted don't get much pressure more than a couple hundred yards from the main road. The stoppage of hunting will bring far worse consequences than just wildlife overpopulation. Those who really want to hunt will always find a place to plunk their butts to hunt whitetails.. those who don't won't, but it will never just end without something to take it's place... and so far nothing has been proven to be as affective a conservation tool as hunting..period.

You cannot force people to buy licenses to hunt. You cannot force them to go out. You cannot force landowners to open their land to other hunters. And, the way that gun rights have come under attack, it may also wind up that you can't force people to buy illegal guns and ammunition to hunt with .... lol. That thought may be what is looming large in the minds of the DEC who seems almost panicky in coming up with new ways to increase deer takes. Perhaps they see what is happening and are trying to make a smaller force take more deer.

 

Back to the original topic, one other direction that I have noticed hunting going is in terms of participation. By that I mean people buying licenses but not putting in the hours that they used to. And this may be strictly a local observation, but I have noticed a little flurry of shooting on opening morning (mostly before legal shooting hours) and then very sporadic activity after that. The same thing on the first Sunday and then we slide into a condition that makes you wonder if there really is a season going on. That's not the way I remember it sounding a bunch of decades ago. My theory (and I always have a theory .... lol), is that advances in clothing warmth have allowed the bulk of hunters to simply sit all day. The deer are driven into hiding by that initial push as hunters enter the woods (bang-bang-bang-bang), and then both the hunters and the deer spend the rest of the day sitting. We used to have a whole woods full of hunters who had frozen fingers and feet by 9:00 am and had to begin walking, keeping deer on their feet too. The days after opening day were used by the big drivers which also got deer up and moving.

[Terry]

Everyone views the world from their own treestand. It's going to look a little different to all of us.

People's perception is their reality

[WNYBuckHunter]

You cannot force people to buy licenses to hunt. You cannot force them to go out. You cannot force landowners to open their land to other hunters. And, the way that gun rights have come under attack, it may also wind up that you can't force people to buy illegal guns and ammunition to hunt with .... lol. That thought may be what is looming large in the minds of the DEC who seems almost panicky in coming up with new ways to increase deer takes. Perhaps they see what is happening and are trying to make a smaller force take more deer.

 

 

 

There are other states that give land owners tax breaks and other incentives to allow people access to the land for hunting. NY isnt exactly the capital of tax breaks though.

[upstate]

Great thread here: 

 

I started hunting when I came home from California after spending some time in the USMC. My in laws own 400 acres in Montague and have a cabin up there. We are surrounded by thousands of acres of state land and might see another hunter every 5-6 years. We currently pay $8,000 a year in taxes on the property, which is 2.5 miles off a SEASONAL road. No power, nothing, unless we bring it. 

 

After a few years I started hunting near Rushville, just inside 8N. Wow, what a different hunt! What a different deer, lol. There were some "mature bucks" shit down there that were tiny compared to doe in Montague. And it was there that I learned hunters can be jerks. We had people post land they did not own or have permission to post. The would do all the things wrong to get the locals mad, like shoot their buildings, pools, dogs, etc.  However, we were friends with many farmers who would allow us to hunt their properties and that is where we ran into the "We have been here our whole life, get out!" from the other people the farmers would let hunt. We eventually lost out when the main guy who owned the 180 acres took an offer from a Mennonite for $300,000 for the property. Property that in the 80's cost about $45,000.

 

So now I lease 60 acres in Cortland County. Just me. I wish it was more but it's not.  Most of the neighbors are great. They're welcome on my land, feel free to pursue a wounded animal.  That is except for the cop. He actually took down a stand that was NEAR his property line (100 feet into mine). You can't pursue. He called the DEC about a wounded deer on his property that died. I watched him tell the DEC that he did not want anyone on his property. The Con officer simply asked, "Are you going to tag this deer?" When he said no, the DEC grabbed the deer and put it on his truck. He took out one of his tags and put it on it. Then he asked the kid who shot it if he wanted it, which he did. The DEC guy said, "that guy right there gives law enforcement a bad name. I wonder how many deer he gets off others." 

 

My point is that access to GOOD land is getting more and more difficult. Where am I in the second week of November? Cortland county. Simply put, there's more deer than Montague. Much more. 

 

Lastly- I don't think that the "preachers" help our cause. Those are the know it all deer farmers. It's like preaching religion or politics to me, it angers me. 

 

I wonder where things will go. I can afford to hunt now. Many can't and those are the ones that will simply choose to do other things instead of hunting 

[growalot]

 

That thought may be what is looming large in the minds of the DEC who seems almost panicky in coming up with new ways to increase deer takes. Perhaps they see what is happening and are trying to make a smaller force take more deer.

 

i don't know Doc...If they are that panicked..... they would not have listened to lobbyist on either side of the X-bow issue and just made them a legal implement...not that it would have pleased me during bow season but........ I do see it as a management tool...they are the Professionals and have the final word...at least they have for several other unpopular decisions

[Arrow Flinger]

You cannot force people to buy licenses to hunt. You cannot force them to go out. You cannot force landowners to open their land to other hunters. And, the way that gun rights have come under attack, it may also wind up that you can't force people to buy illegal guns and ammunition to hunt with .... lol. That thought may be what is looming large in the minds of the DEC who seems almost panicky in coming up with new ways to increase deer takes. Perhaps they see what is happening and are trying to make a smaller force take more deer.

 

Back to the original topic, one other direction that I have noticed hunting going is in terms of participation. By that I mean people buying licenses but not putting in the hours that they used to. And this may be strictly a local observation, but I have noticed a little flurry of shooting on opening morning (mostly before legal shooting hours) and then very sporadic activity after that. The same thing on the first Sunday and then we slide into a condition that makes you wonder if there really is a season going on. That's not the way I remember it sounding a bunch of decades ago. My theory (and I always have a theory .... lol), is that advances in clothing warmth have allowed the bulk of hunters to simply sit all day. The deer are driven into hiding by that initial push as hunters enter the woods (bang-bang-bang-bang), and then both the hunters and the deer spend the rest of the day sitting. We used to have a whole woods full of hunters who had frozen fingers and feet by 9:00 am and had to begin walking, keeping deer on their feet too. The days after opening day were used by the big drivers which also got deer up and moving.

 

I didn't have this problem this year and I wish I did. During gun season around me it seemed like guys didn't even try to sit. Opening day I actually had a guy slowly sneaking through the woods while talking on his cell phone! I heard him coming long before I saw him. After opening day it seemed everyone just slept in and put drives on the rest of the day. Of course, this was on public land so that's what you get. It seems as the years go on I see many more "bad" hunters with "bad" hunting technique on public land. These are probably the first guys that get booted from private property so they just gravitate to the public land.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Until they find a better way to control wildlife populations hunting will continue to exist... there is still plenty of public land that is relatively untouched by hunters... and those lands heavily hunted don't get much pressure more than a couple hundred yards from the main road. The stoppage of hunting will bring far worse consequences than just wildlife overpopulation. Those who really want to hunt will always find a place to plunk their butts to hunt whitetails.. those who don't won't, but it will never just end without something to take it's place... and so far nothing has been proven to be as affective a conservation tool as hunting..period.

what do you think they did on Letchworth when they overpopulated?  what do you think they are getting ready to do on Long Island because of over population.  I sure didnt see any more tags offered to hunters before they brought the sharp shooters in during the winter when they were yarded up! How long do you think new or old hunters will hunt when they see more people then deer?

 All they need to do is give the farms more damadge permits and they wont have to worry about any deer i some areas.

[Doc]

There are other states that give land owners tax breaks and other incentives to allow people access to the land for hunting. NY isnt exactly the capital of tax breaks though.

You couldn't pay me enough to open up my land to the general public. I'm not sure how great financial incentives are anyway. Anyone who could be influenced that way is probably already collecting a hole lot more cash from leases. Paying all of the taxes and still having beer money left over. Unless it was guaranteed to work, I probably wouldn't really like my tax money used that way anyway.

[Doc]

i don't know Doc...If they are that panicked..... they would not have listened to lobbyist on either side of the X-bow issue and just made them a legal implement...not that it would have pleased me during bow season but........ I do see it as a management tool...they are the Professionals and have the final word...at least they have for several other unpopular decisions

The DEC is emphatically and publicly behind the use of the crossbow in all seasons. They also were championing the early muzzleloader season, and I am convinced that if they thought for a minute that they could get away with it, they would come out in favor of extending other guns into bow season as well. In fact, aside from the extra revenue that they get for the special licensing, they probably regret that any part of the hunting season has to be given up to the bowhunters. Apparently this is not one of the areas that they have the ability to arbitrarily change the law since it is obviously a political action that is determined by legislature.