New Setback Rules proposed by Cuomo

[Culvercreek hunt club]

 Why has it even been made a headline this year and last year it wasnt?

For the exact reasons that Doc mentioned. Politics in an election year.

[fasteddie]

Let's pretend that Prince Andy has nothing to do with this and that the DEC has proposed a 150' set back rule . I would not be in favor of it . It's way too close . But then , I don't hunt Urban areas where some folks might find it a necessity . 50 yards is way too close to be hunting near someone's house .

[Doc]

 

That was the case, at least with the crossbow bill it was. The only person that kept that fro going through was Sweeny. Go look at the threads about it from last year.

 

The title of the thread is

"New Setback Rules proposed by Cuomo"

 

I know the Sweeny story, and I know there was legislation proposed, but I never heard anything about any Cuomo involvement. That might be one reason why no one was saying anything about it.

 

By the way I tried to do a search on "New Setback Rules proposed by Cuomo" and guess which thread came up? .... this one.

[Doc]

In an article dated 1/27/14, note this quote:

 

"Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced in the details of his executive budget last week that he favors reducing bowhunting setbacks throughout the state."

 

http://riverheadnewsreview.timesreview.com/2014/01/50890/cuomo-throws-support-behind-reducing-hunting-setbacks/

 

That is the source of this thread, and likely the reason for all of the attention.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

 

Let me throw out a scenario. in the picture the red line is 150' from houses. the Yellow is 500'. This property can legally be hunted with permission, even with a gun. As a homeowner on the left side you really don't have control over whether this woods is hunted or not. On which line would you rather have a hunter set up on? (in know Doc's answer is neither...lol) the 500 and even the 150' is where you are standing when you discharge, it isn't about where the game is. This is one of those suburban scenarios.

[growalot]

All I know is my fencing is on sale and today I go and pick up 4 rolls of it...I paced of 150 ft from the front and back of the house...The guy that built the house did put it about on the property line...and the lease guys are right next door...and have already tried to set up too close to the house during gun season in the back...they are the types to set up as close as possible ...just to irritate...so I will just fence that side... deer jump after a shot...There will be NO recovery permission given to anyone of them or the DEC... 

 

Deer will change their movements......logging will be in the works...and then new plot trails and mast trees  will be set in the middle of the property..instead of coming up out of our gully crossing to field   they can feed down the trails to the property across the street...where there are no problems with neighbors next door...In fact if I know these guys as I do...the neighbor across the street and next door to us will probably fence their front line...to help keep the deer running between our two properties...They have had the DEC up here going back years and years because of the problems they have had with them...Simple solutions...I worked great down on lower property....made guy across from us happy....and keeping guy next door from shooting deer on our place and sneaking in to get them...making me happy...Good fences better neighbors

[Doc]

The problem with all of these rules, even the 50 yard bow setback proposal, there never is any requirement that the shot must not be fired in the direction of any buildings. So none of these things really offer the protection for which they are intended. Can an arrow still make it to your house from behind your fence, 50 yards away? We all know the answer to that, and it can be done without a whole lot of excess bow elevation. That distance is just too darned close, just like the 500' distance (a mere 170 yards) is too close with shotguns and rifles. Without a stipulation regarding the direction of the shot, these minimum distances don't really mean a whole heck of a lot from a safety standpoint.

[growalot]

Doc I found a you tube video ...actually through a link from a thread on here...and the guy was hunting a hedge row between two fields...he shot 2x's and then said something better have dropped...then continued hunting with out checking..any ways he kept lifting his rifle scope and saying damn they're right there ..IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE...he did this pointing the rifle at the house at least 5 times and saying damn ...actually more MF and F...every other word...but really thinking about a shot...Now how many of those types are out there..I know I stood on my porch and a deer ran down the middle of the field and the lease guys pulled up and shot at it like they were skeet shooting...I called...the DEC said if he was 500 ft it's legal!!!

 

Look at the red line...and where our porch is...Actually look off our porch...pretty much nothing to stop a slug from 500 ft away when someone is wing shooting running deer across an open field...DEC told me they have to hit the house or a person before doing any thing....

[Doc]

GoogleEarth_Image.jpg

 

Let me throw out a scenario. in the picture the red line is 150' from houses. the Yellow is 500'. This property can legally be hunted with permission, even with a gun. As a homeowner on the left side you really don't have control over whether this woods is hunted or not. On which line would you rather have a hunter set up on? (in know Doc's answer is neither...lol) the 500 and even the 150' is where you are standing when you discharge, it isn't about where the game is. This is one of those suburban scenarios.

For a bowhunter, the red line would be legal but absolutely ridiculous from just about any aspect that I can imagine. From the yellow line (the current legal set-back), who would really care. Nobody could even see them. They wouldn't even know anyone was there, and there is no chance that an arrow would ever make it to any of the houses. Archery-wise, the yellow line is a safe situation. Most likely with all the woods in between, a shotgun or rifle would even be safe at the yellow 500' line. By the way, put a field in between instead of the woods, and even the 500' set-back with a rifle would be extremely questionable as to whether that really would be a safe shot to take.

[Doc]

Doc I found a you tube video ...actually through a link from a thread on here...and the guy was hunting a hedge row between two fields...he shot 2x's and then said something better have dropped...then continued hunting with out checking..any ways he kept lifting his rifle scope and saying damn they're right there ..IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE...he did this pointing the rifle at the house at least 5 times and saying damn ...actually more MF and F...every other word...but really thinking about a shot...Now how many of those types are out there..I know I stood on my porch and a deer ran down the middle of the field and the lease guys pulled up and shot at it like they were skeet shooting...I called...the DEC said if he was 500 ft it's legal!!!

 

Look at the red line...and where our porch is...Actually look off our porch...pretty much nothing to stop a slug from 500 ft away when someone is wing shooting running deer across an open field...DEC told me they have to hit the house or a person before doing any thing....

And worse yet, here in Ontario County we have rifles being used. For the average deer rifle, a 170 yard (500') shot is not totally out of the question with very little bullet drop. Minimum distances are only part of the safety requirement. In my opinion, there should be some part of that law that says you should never shoot with a visible building in the line of fire.

[A Sportsman]

Fully agree with your last point doc.

Found dec 5 year plan on line. It clearly states that it recommends the change from 500 ft to 150 ft for bow on page 54. As much as we would like to think cuomo is supporting it for political reasons, its hard to make a case for it given DECs own recommendation. In my opinion, hunters will not change their vote on cuomo because of this. Whether he thinks they will or not is moot. Second amendment rights, specificaLly limiting our ability to protect ourselves and our family, usurps some hunting regs changes in a big way.

Also as info the dec document states that there is an 18 acre circle in the area between houses while keeping 500 ft from them.

[growalot]

Called...fencing in stock...going to buy now and Mr B can pick it up on the way home....Rule changes or not...will determine where the fencing will be going up this year...

[mike rossi]

Mike Rossi,

I don't know the exact process that was required to "adopt" the proposed rule changes. But I do remember DEC pointing out that some changes could be made by DEC acting alone and others needing to be made thru a legilative process. If I have some time today ill look for that 5 year plan on line.

 

After the DEC develops a draft  management plan and before it is finalized and adopted; there is a public comment period or a stakeholder input period. At that stage is called the "draft plan", because it is only a draft yet to be finalized and adopted. Public comment may or may not compel the DEC to modify the draft plan before it is finalized and adopted.

 

I have been assuming this plan you mention has been finalized and is adopted?  I was asking you if you were referring to the draft plan or the finished product?

 

The reason I am asking is:  I am guessing; that just because the DEC adopts a plan containing strategies which require a change in the law; that doing so does not necessarily give the DEC the authority to implement them without it passing the legislature. I am wondering if a 50 yard set back is one of the strategies in the plan the DEC adopted? If it is, it is possible they need a bill to pass to implement it.

[mike rossi]

Fully agree with your last point doc.

Found dec 5 year plan on line. It clearly states that it recommends the change from 500 ft to 150 ft for bow on page 54. As much as we would like to think cuomo is supporting it for political reasons, its hard to make a case for it given DECs own recommendation. In my opinion, hunters will not change their vote on cuomo because of this. Whether he thinks they will or not is moot. Second amendment rights, specificaLly limiting our ability to protect ourselves and our family, usurps some hunting regs changes in a big way.

Also as info the dec document states that there is an 18 acre circle in the area between houses while keeping 500 ft from them.

I see it. It was the DEC's idea and the management plan was dated on October 17, 2011 to cover the years 2012 to 2016. So apparently the DEC needs the legislature and the governor to pass a bill to change the setback law . The DEC , unless they changed their mind, would have changed the law if they in fact had the authority to do so.

 

I would be very surprised to learn that the DEC has not approached the legislature and governor with this issue. And it makes sense that they are allowed to do so to implement their management strategies. However, are there really instances when the DEC cannot get involved with legislation or is that just a lie? Some of you out there know the answer and so do the politically connected. Us peasants would like to know as well...

[mike rossi]

The problem with all of these rules, even the 50 yard bow setback proposal, there never is any requirement that the shot must not be fired in the direction of any buildings. So none of these things really offer the protection for which they are intended. Can an arrow still make it to your house from behind your fence, 50 yards away? We all know the answer to that, and it can be done without a whole lot of excess bow elevation. That distance is just too darned close, just like the 500' distance (a mere 170 yards) is too close with shotguns and rifles. Without a stipulation regarding the direction of the shot, these minimum distances don't really mean a whole heck of a lot from a safety standpoint.

Doc,

 

We can go on and on with reasons why this is a bad idea. I don't agree with the DEC's strategy because it further jeopardizes the already tarnished image of hunting and hunters. it may back fire and compel townships to enact ordinances with set backs more restrictive than state law, such as the town of Vestal already has. It can very conceivably  create a snow balling precedent and set the stage for a new political agenda with a lot of muscle behind it. 

 

We don't need to hash and rehash all the ills with doing this for the benefit of someone else's pest control - let the homeowner buy a bow, get a hunting license, and control his own pests..  I think we need to focus on answers to questions less obvious than the issues inherent with hunting 150 feet from someone's house. I asked them, I would like to go there.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I know the Sweeny story, and I know there was legislation proposed, but I never heard anything about any Cuomo involvement. That might be one reason why no one was saying anything about it.

 

By the way I tried to do a search on "New Setback Rules proposed by Cuomo" and guess which thread came up? .... this one.

 

If you knew the Sweeny story, youd know that Cuomo had already said he would sign it if it made it to his desk, it never did because of Sweeny. Its included in one of the crossbow threads from last year.

 

Of course this thread came up lol. Thats the name of it.

[mike rossi]

If you knew the Sweeny story, youd know that Cuomo had already said he would sign it if it made it to his desk, it never did because of Sweeny. Its included in one of the crossbow threads from last year.

 

Of course this thread came up lol. Thats the name of it.

Okay, that is what happens when you create an omnibus bill which packages separate bills together - sometimes it helps something slide through, other times the whole package gets crushed... Look I am sure the DEC wants crossbows because it would increase harvest where it is needed and it would also boost the conservation fund. Crossbows do tie in with the 50 yard set back , as a matter of fact the section in the management plan regarding set backs indicates cross bows as well as long bows... The NY Farm Bureau  would also like to see both implemented. So would bird conservation organizations such as Audubon and others.

 

We have people in the sporting community who don't know the difference from a bill and a draft plan and a plan and why there is public comment on plans but not bills ( "how did they sneak this one through", etc...) and others look at a draft plan and call it a report and others think everything is a state or federal government conspiracy or to get votes...  

 

I think this thread is more about why so and so is acting on it rather than start all over with stuff like the effective range of both weapons is the same and drawing a long bow on a deer is no different than firing a cross bow at one and all that. Not only are those premises outrageous they have been beat to death. Virgil, the OP, was pointing to the governors interest in this bill, and I believe that the DEC engaging the governor and the legislature to enable their management plan is where this thread has lead and where it should go... Am I wrong? As a matter of fact, you yourself seems to have a fair amount of political savvy, I would be particularly interested in what YOU have to say about the questions I poised....  

[WNYBuckHunter]

Okay, that is what happens when you create an omnibus bill which packages separate bills together - sometimes it helps something slide through, other times the whole package gets crushed... Look I am sure the DEC wants crossbows because it would increase harvest where it is needed and it would also boost the conservation fund. Crossbows do tie in with the 50 yard set back , as a matter of fact the section in the management plan regarding set backs indicates cross bows as well as long bows... The NY Farm Bureau  would also like to see both implemented. So would bird conservation organizations such as Audubon and others.

 

We have people in the sporting community who don't know the difference from a bill and a draft plan and a plan and why there is public comment on plans but not bills ( "how did they sneak this one through", etc...) and others look at a draft plan and call it a report and others think everything is a state or federal government conspiracy or to get votes...  

 

I think this thread is more about why so and so is acting on it rather than start all over with stuff like the effective range of both weapons is the same and drawing a long bow on a deer is no different than firing a cross bow at one and all that. Not only are those premises outrageous they have been beat to death. Virgil, the OP, was pointing to the governors interest in this bill, and I believe that the DEC engaging the governor and the legislature to enable their management plan is where this thread has lead and where it should go... Am I wrong? As a matter of fact, you yourself seems to have a fair amount of political savvy, I would be particularly interested in what YOU have to say about the questions I poised....  

 

The crossbow bill didnt include set back changes last year. Both were included in the budget last year, but were removed before they passed the budget, then the crossbow inclusion bill went out on its own. I know that crossbows tie into the 150 foot rule, but only if they are allowed into archery season this time.

 

Ill have to read the questions you asked, I havent had time to keep up with everything in this thread. Ill answer them as soon as I can.

[Larry]

I don't know what the big deal is PA. Has a 50yd. Set back for bow and if you hunt waterfowl in NY.  As long as you are shooting over the water you don't have to be 500ft. From a building even if you don't own it.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ok, so I assume you are talking about your questions on the DEC management plan, etc.

 

The 5 year plan was approved by DEC, and they have been helping to propose the legislative changes that need to take place to give them the power to implement said changes. Adding crossbows as a legal hunting implement in whichever seasons the DEC wants to add them to requires a legislative change. As it sits now, they are not a legal hunting implement per NYS law. The setback of 500 feet is also NYS law, not a DEC regulation, so they need the legislative change to occur before they can change the setback regulation in the DEC books.

 

The effective range between a crossbow and a vertical bow is an entirely different discussion.

[mike rossi]

Nothing wrong with taking  your time, no rush, glad that you think this is a worthwhile discussion. Hope others do to, I think it will give us more understanding into what the heck goes on. I know I have quite a bit to learn...

Edited January 30, 2014 by mike rossi

[catskillkid]

    NJ has had a bowhunting,50 yard rule from an elevated stand for a couple of years now. I have not heard of any problems. Fish & Game is trying to reduce the overpopulation of deer in those tight neighborhoods. There really is no other way to get at those animals without the 50 yard rule.

 

    Kind of hard to hear deer approaching with all the leaf blowers blasting around though..

 

 

[mike rossi]

Ok, so I assume you are talking about your questions on the DEC management plan, etc.

 

The 5 year plan was approved by DEC, and they have been helping to propose the legislative changes that need to take place to give them the power to implement said changes. Adding crossbows as a legal hunting implement in whichever seasons the DEC wants to add them to requires a legislative change. As it sits now, they are not a legal hunting implement per NYS law. The setback of 500 feet is also NYS law, not a DEC regulation, so they need the legislative change to occur before they can change the setback regulation in the DEC books.

 

The effective range between a crossbow and a vertical bow is an entirely different discussion.

About what I bolded. The approved plan included the reduced setbacks as one of its strategies. Although the DEC approved a plan that includes a 50 yard setback it does NOT have the authority to change the law. The entity with the authority to change the law is the governor and the legislature and to do so would require introducing and passing a bill as any other proposed bill would be processed. I think that likely explains the governor's and some lawmakers periodic interest in certain en-con proposals, including this one. However I have a gap in knowledge and cant reconcile policies or laws which seem to conflict regarding the interaction between the DEC and politicians.

 

The DEC does have some degree of prohibition against legislative lobbying, but how much? I am not versed in those boundaries and would like them defined. I do know in the past a person or persons representing the DEC has said off the record and possibly unofficially that they do not engage in controversial issues, one example being hunting mourning doves. Off course, that is ridiculous, all aspects of trapping and hunting are highly controversial, as is other non sporting issues they deal with. Perhaps the law or departmental policy allows them to engage in legislation only when it involves a matter involving one of their management plans? It isn't possible that the DEC has no say so in conservation, pollution and other environmental laws, where is that line drawn?

 

It seems likely that someone is lobbying the legislature and governor on behalf of the DEC to enable them to implement their set back reduction strategy. If this is not the DEC itself, is the DEC depending on sportsmen's organizations to lobby for proposals consistent with their management plans? If so it can be surmised that the DEC is using suggestions from certain organizations (*) to develop some of its strategies, in part because the lobbying effort and political support is built in.

 

(*) The county federations and the NY State Conservation Council?

[WNYBuckHunter]

The DEC cannot directly propose bills, they need someone in the legislature to do it for them. The 5 year management plan just outlines the issues the DEC will be trying to tackle in that 5 year span.

 

I do think that the other entities like the conservation council, etc assist the DEC in some of the proposals.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Nothing wrong with taking  your time, no rush, glad that you think this is a worthwhile discussion. Hope others do to, I think it will give us more understanding into what the heck goes on. I know I have quite a bit to learn...

 

No problem, I also have alot to learn. I like these types of discussions. Better than participating in a pissing match about who the better hunter is lol.