NY DEC: 2013 Deer Harvest Results are In

[Five Seasons]

I too am in favor of a one buck program, but then I think about my season this year. The first deer I saw was a 2.5yr 8. Just happened to be that way. Knowing I might not get a chance a bigger buck on the cams might have made me pass on him. Throughout the rest of the year I saw nice deer, but never one bigger so I'm glad i took him... or I could have eaten tag soup. Which I know some of you will say is just fine, and that's been my dad the last few years. I'm just not sure I like it. Like phade, the cost of a broadhead and the difficult terrain we hunt and work involved with dragging out a doe can make one think twice about shooting a flathead.

[Meat Manager]

I still want to know why I can't kill 2 bucks in a season or only hunt bucks. It's legal so let me do it right?

Sure you can do it...but over time it will have a negative impact on the animals you seek. The OBR was brought up in relation to buck age structure and pop management.

So if you want hunting to be a sustainable practice you will comply with the state management plan and help reduce pop numbers.

This is what I refer to as the hunters responsibility to help monitor and manage the local population.

That all said OBR is not in effect in NY and I would take two mature bucks in a season if one or both were with bow.

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Edited April 25, 2014 by Meat Manager

[Meat Manager]

Like phade, the cost of a broadhead and the difficult terrain we hunt and work involved with dragging out a doe can make one think twice about shooting a flathead.

I would say this is my least favorite "statement of the entire thread."

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Edited April 25, 2014 by Meat Manager

[WNYBuckHunter]

If you did EAB you would have to scrape the dmp system. You could end up killing to many does where you shouldn’t and not an enough where you need to

 

It could be modified depending on the WMU.

 

Honestly, I dont even want to see EAB in this state.

[G-Man]

One buck doesn't make sense..they had that not to long ago. Bow and muzzleloader hunter who buy their tags eearly and for a good price fought to get two buck limit. If you went to. One Buck then your bow muzzleloader stamp should be. 1 dollar. Since you already paid for your buck tag in big game. Loss of revenue for the state would be astronomical. Just think of interest lost on a reg season licence if you only bought your tag as each season came. I mean if you bought a bow tag and filled it why pay for regular gun or muzzleloader ?? Those that take. Buck do it by being in the woods a lot... its a fraction of overall take. I think if you need more doe taken in and area open season doe only and charg five dollars for it. Guys who want meat would apply and hunt. As long as hunting land is available. Take 9 f for example.... we keep buying state land in the adk's with few hunters hunting there. Why not buy 1200 acres in erie county? There is no state land there or give a tax credit to landowners who allow hunting in these high population areas?? Now I am limited to get my DMP in my area and second choice..if I could go again in a special season I would. You can't control deer numbers if you don't have access to the area for hunters!!

[orion]

The state can't even think about a lot of these programs. They have no means of breaking down the management areas small enough to manage correctly. 

 

Just look at the DMP's issued by area. A lot of areas in single digits per square mile, then plenty in the 40's even one at 82! When you take in account that within each unit the population varies, you are probably talking areas with 100+ deer per square mile to areas with single digit #s

 

People in the lower populated area obviously don't want to shoot does, population is way lower then it has been. And I would assume in 8n where they issue 82 per square mile you have to be getting run over by deer

[Meat Manager]

The state can't even think about a lot of these programs. They have no means of breaking down the management areas small enough to manage correctly.

People in the lower populated area obviously don't want to shoot does, population is way lower then it has been. And I would assume in 8n where they issue 82 per square mile you have to be getting run over by deer

Who is better equipped to manage the state's wildlife then? If you report your harvests you are part of this management report.

The reason they have to hand out a ridiculous amount of permits is because only 1 in 6.5 is getting filled.

If they hand out 82 DMPs in a square mile it's because that's how many you have to hand out to get 12 doe harvested.

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Edited April 25, 2014 by Meat Manager

[NFA-ADK]

I understand the concerns with EAB program but this would be based on WMU and would need check stations to make it work.  This would be in addition to your regular tags and would only be used for hunters willing to enter the program for population control.

 

EX:  If you shoot 10 doe in Suffolk County you will get one extra buck tag.  All doe would have to be checked into the DEC and upon completion that hunter would earn one extra buck tag for helping with population control.  If this is about population control then this would be effective at targeting more doe. 

 

What do you think?  IF you think this is a bad idea, what would you do to make it better for population control?

Ideas???

[phade]

I imagine you saying that in valley girl style..."worst idea ever, gag me with a spoon." The button aspect is a legit concern with EAB in terms of buck age management, but what is "way up," and what were the results in pop reduction? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

EAB is contested in WI so much so, legislators had to get involved to get it removed in part. Before you say legislators getting involved in our affairs here is no different, this came about at the fact that constituents complained enough that the legislators felt obligated to move on it to respond to their people or face repercussions.

 

EAB is full of holes - especially when you state that check-in was voluntary. That's ridiculous.

 

 

EAB and mandatory AR are about as bad as it gets from a management perspective when coming from an agency level. OBR, 9 day gun season Monday after T-day, long bow/xbow season, and specific regional or county based doe management tools, with a responsive agency is the way to go. While Ohio is not perfect, it does all of these things and no shock that it's heads and tails above what we offer. Our soil quality in wNY is akin to the better counties in Ohio. Our soil quality in eastern NY is akin to the poorer counties in Ohio, such as western and NW counties there. People try to say this isn't Ohio as a reason why such success can't be built/managed, and it's a bunch of crapola.

[phade]

Sure you can do it...but over time it will have a negative impact on the animals you seek. The OBR was brought up in relation to buck age structure and pop management. So if you want hunting to be a sustainable practice you will comply with the state management plan and help reduce pop numbers. This is what I refer to as the hunters responsibility to help monitor and manage the local population. That all said OBR is not in effect in NY and I would take two mature bucks in a season if one or both were with bow. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

That's a big pile of dookie. The DEC is a good resource. But, they also aren't going to rank in the top 10 or 15, or top 20 of comparative agencies across the land.

 

Just because you get 6 tags doesn't mean you should shoot 6 does. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. That's the #1 way states, even those with GREAT hunting and deer quality, get in trouble. I'm sorry, but it just is. Case in point the past few years have been Ohio, Iowa, and Kansas. Ohio fared the best out of these three states because their system allowed for quicker changes in the deer seasons. You must not remember the big decline in deer numbers about 10 years ago. Where did that originate from? The DEC and hunter complicity. It took them a year or two, but they finally admitted they missed the mark in the population decline. A similar issue is going on in a majority of whitetail states right now - harvest numbers are going down. Iowa is hurting - despite it being the mecca of whitetails.

 

The right answer is using the DEC info as a guideline and your tangible, physical knowledge of your immediate (within a deer's home range) hunting area to make the right decision. That's hunter responsibility, not complying with state management plans outright and taken for scripture. Sometimes not filling a tag is the right call.

[phade]

The state can't even think about a lot of these programs. They have no means of breaking down the management areas small enough to manage correctly. 

 

Just look at the DMP's issued by area. A lot of areas in single digits per square mile, then plenty in the 40's even one at 82! When you take in account that within each unit the population varies, you are probably talking areas with 100+ deer per square mile to areas with single digit #s

 

People in the lower populated area obviously don't want to shoot does, population is way lower then it has been. And I would assume in 8n where they issue 82 per square mile you have to be getting run over by deer

I believe that is false. If any state can do, NY should be able to. While our DEC isn't the best, there's no reason not to raise our standards.

[G-Man]

To do many of these ideas obr or eab, season would need to be significantly shortened and closed during rut, and you would have to pick what season and when you wanted to hunt.

Personally deer hunting is great in ny and hasn't changed much in 26 years except for the better (except for sat opening) . I needed.four People on a doe permit, could only take. one Buck (if you filled your buck tag in bow you were done hunting for the year) doe tags are now plentiful 1sometimes 2 per applicant. I can use them in multiple seasons, bucks in general are bigger due to voluntarily passing of younger deer. Compound bows are legal as are release aids.,lighted pins, I don't know what the fuss is about.. oh you saw a guy take a big buck on TV? Do you know how much they hunt to get that. Buck? Or they are the only hunter on 400 acres? Hunter density is very high here.in ny. Your comparisons don't hold water for that overlooked fact alone......

[ncountry]

How about 1st buck tag is an antlered deer 3"+ on one side, 2nd buck tag is 4 points or better on one side?

[G-Man]

ar's are purely for hunter satisfaction not population control...

[Meat Manager]

That's a big pile of dookie. The DEC is a good resource. But, they also aren't going to rank in the top 10 or 15, or top 20 of comparative agencies across the land.

Just because you get 6 tags doesn't mean you should shoot 6 does. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. That's the #1 way states, even those with GREAT hunting and deer quality, get in trouble. I'm sorry, but it just is. Case in point the past few years have been Ohio, Iowa, and Kansas. Ohio fared the best out of these three states because their system allowed for quicker changes in the deer seasons. You must not remember the big decline in deer numbers about 10 years ago. Where did that originate from? The DEC and hunter complicity. It took them a year or two, but they finally admitted they missed the mark in the population decline. A similar issue is going on in a majority of whitetail states right now - harvest numbers are going down. Iowa is hurting - despite it being the mecca of whitetails.

The right answer is using the DEC info as a guideline and your tangible, physical knowledge of your immediate (within a deer's home range) hunting area to make the right decision. That's hunter responsibility, not complying with state management plans outright and taken for scripture. Sometimes not filling a tag is the right call.

As usual thanks for parsing my words. It only took you two thread pages.

In my quote you'll notice I used the phrase "local populations." Obviously local conditions prevail.

That said I don't need an education on population management from someone who openly admits that arrow costs and dragging difficulty prevent you from harvesting does. Denying the accuracy or precision of the DECs numbers makes it easier to justify a lazy decision.

Again is the DEC perfect...no. Are they better at collecting data and managing the wildlife across the state than say a handful of message board members, yeah.

I'll keep filling tags.

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Edited April 25, 2014 by Meat Manager

[Meat Manager]

EAB is contested in WI so much so, legislators had to get involved to get it removed in part. Before you say legislators getting involved in our affairs here is no different, this came about at the fact that constituents complained enough that the legislators felt obligated to move on it to respond to their people or face repercussions.

EAB is full of holes - especially when you state that check-in was voluntary. That's ridiculous.

EAB and mandatory AR are about as bad as it gets from a management perspective when coming from an agency level. OBR, 9 day gun season Monday after T-day, long bow/xbow season, and specific regional or county based doe management tools, with a responsive agency is the way to go. While Ohio is not perfect, it does all of these things and no shock that it's heads and tails above what we offer. Our soil quality in wNY is akin to the better counties in Ohio. Our soil quality in eastern NY is akin to the poorer counties in Ohio, such as western and NW counties there. People try to say this isn't Ohio as a reason why such success can't be built/managed, and it's a bunch of crapola.

So you want mandatory check in but not AR (again I don't have a strong opinion either way).

I am telling you the EAB works in NJ where pop control is the only priority. It is limited to the first 2 weeks of archery (mid September).

If noting else it instills an attitude of population management amongst the die-hards who are out that early.

By the way NJ has a format similar to your beloved Ohio. Long and very early Bow, 6 Day Firearms, special ML, long and very late bow.

The difference between us is that I don't pretend to know exactly how something is going to work out before it's even been tried.

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Edited April 25, 2014 by Meat Manager

[burmjohn]

ar's are purely for hunter satisfaction not population control...

Proper age structure. Who said population control. And no its not just hunter satisfaction.

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[phade]

To dY many of these ideas obr or eab, season would need to be significantly shortened and closed during rut, and you would have to pick what season and when you wanted to hunt.

Personally deer hunting is great in ny and hasn't changed much in 26 years except for the better (except for sat opening) . I needed.four People on a doe permit, could only take. one Buck (if you filled your buck tag in bow you were done hunting for the year) doe tags are now plentiful 1sometimes 2 per applicant. I can use them in multiple seasons, bucks in general are bigger due to voluntarily passing of younger deer. Compound bows are legal as are release aids.,lighted pins, I don't know what the fuss is about.. oh you saw a guy take a big buck on TV? Do you know how much they hunt to get that. Buck? Or they are the only hunter on 400 acres? Hunter density is very high here.in ny. Your comparisons don't hold water for that overlooked fact alone......

 

 

NY ranks 3rd in hunter density, and Ohio ranks 5th. That's right, 5th. 2 spots behind NY. Fact.

 

PA

RI

NY

WI

OH

 

I'm not overlooking anything. Note that two of the top five pressure states are also two of the highest ranking for big buck states - with WI being the #1 state for book bucks for a long time.

 

So again, how is our pressure different from theirs that makes our ability to produce high quality hunting similar or even ballpark on their level? Ding Ding Ding....

Edited April 26, 2014 by phade

[phade]

So you want mandatory check in but not AR (again I don't have a strong opinion either way). I am telling you the EAB works in NJ where pop control is the only priority. It is limited to the first 2 weeks of archery (mid September). If noting else it instills an attitude of population management amongst the die-hards who are out that early.By the way NJ has a format similar to your beloved Ohio. Long and very early Bow, 6 Day Firearms, special ML, long and very late bow.The difference between us is that I don't pretend to know exactly how something is going to work out before it's even been tried. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I dont pretend to know everything. But ive got more experience than the average joe.

My own personal view based on cost and time efficiency is mine. My personal decision bears nothing as to what should be done by state agencies.

Ive been very lucky in life to have met and worked with some of the most influential deer managers in the modern age. Mickey, the dougherty, kip, and grant woods. Ive also interviewed and spoken to jeremy hurst, our states head big game biologist, on AR and the states deer herd dynamics. Theres a difference in state agencies. Theres a difference in understanding the balance between dec capabilities and objectives. Thats been the issue for decades here.

Edited April 26, 2014 by phade

[burmjohn]

I dont pretend to know everything. But ive got more experience than the average joe.

My own personal view based on cost and time efficiency is mine. My personal decision bears nothing as to what should be done by state agencies.

Ive been very lucky in life to have met and worked with some of the most influential deer managers in the modern age. Mickey, the dougherty, kip, and grant woods. Ive also interviewed and spoken to jeremy hurst, our states head big game biologist, on AR and the states deer herd dynamics. Theres a difference in state agencies. Theres a difference in understanding the balance between dec capabilities and objectives. Thats been the issue for decades here.

As much as I respect jeremy Hurst and the amount of crap on his shoulders because of budget cuts what he posts via DEC are not his views they are the DECs views. Meaning what he us essentially told to say which sucks but it is what it is. Off topic slightly but if you ask if ARs accomplish their intended goal, protect yearlings and spread out the age structure, there is no way he can't say no because they do.

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[phade]

As much as I respect jeremy Hurst and the amount of crap on his shoulders because of budget cuts what he posts via DEC are not his views they are the DECs views. Meaning what he us essentially told to say which sucks but it is what it is. Off topic slightly but if you ask if ARs accomplish their intended goal, protect yearlings and spread out the age structure, there is no way he can't say no because they do. Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

I know Jeremy fairly well. I know his personal and his professional views for the most part. He chokes down alot of stuff that he doesn't want to swallow.

 

He was one of my main sources for the AR article I wrote for NY Game and Fish when the initial WMUs went into the pilot study back in the mid-2000s. Along with Mickey and a couple others.

 

They do get bucks to 2.5 when done correctly, but it's not as clear cut as what some people make it out to be. Education and other tools are better options in my book and don't carry limitations on personal choice and risks to the herd in other ways. Ask him whether he'd say AR or OBR/moved gun season, etc. and so on and so forth would be a better option. It won't be the former.

Edited April 26, 2014 by phade

[Meat Manager]

I dont pretend to know everything. But ive got more experience than the average joe.

My own personal view based on cost and time efficiency is mine. My personal decision bears nothing as to what should be done by state agencies.

Ive been very lucky in life to have met and worked with some of the most influential deer managers in the modern age. Mickey, the dougherty, kip, and grant woods. Ive also interviewed and spoken to jeremy hurst, our states head big game biologist, on AR and the states deer herd dynamics. Theres a difference in state agencies. Theres a difference in understanding the balance between dec capabilities and objectives. Thats been the issue for decades here.

Keep name dropping and tooting your own horn.

The two key points made by the DEC in the OP were "Fill Antler-less Tags" and "Keep Passing Yearlings."

You lament the doe situation by suggesting its essentially a waste of your time to concern yourself with the business end of population management, then you name drop a bunch of PhDs like I give a turd.

EAB and OBR were originally brought up here as ideas to help with the lack of motivation of hunters like you to shoot does...no one is promoting blanket use of the tactics... go educate someone else.

By the way my brothers got a phd in neuroscience and I talk with him frequently...that doesn't make me a neuroscientist.

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Edited April 26, 2014 by Meat Manager

[phade]

Keep name dropping and tooting your own horn. The two key points made by the DEC in the OP were "Fill Antler-less Tags" and "Keep Passing Yearlings." You lament the doe situation by suggesting its essentially a waste of your time to concern yourself with the business end of population management, then you name drop a bunch of PhDs like I give a turd. EAB and OBR were originally brought up here as ideas to help with the lack of motivation of hunters like you to shoot does...no one is promoting blanket use of the tactics... go educate someone else. By the way my brothers got a phd in neuroscience and I talk with him frequently...that doesn't make me a neuroscientist. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Ha. You apparently haven't read the part where I year after year filled every tag possible in bow season. I've killed more does than most people have in NY. I've done my part. I killed two does this season. That's more than the average hunter - yet, despite my personal beliefs, you lament me. When in fact I'm OVER the average rate of DMP issuance. Roll that one around for a second.

 

 

 

I've received paychecks from the QDMA. Paychecks. I'm not exactly dealing with osmosis here. And, I'm not tooting my own horn. It's for context.

Edited April 26, 2014 by phade

[Meat Manager]

Ha. You apparently haven't read the part where I year after year filled every tag possible in bow season. I've killed more does than most people have in NY. I've done my part. I killed two does this season. That's more than the average hunter - yet, despite my personal beliefs, you lament me. When in fact I'm OVER the average rate of DMP issuance. Roll that one around for a second.

I've received paychecks from the QDMA. Paychecks. I'm not exactly dealing with osmosis here. And, I'm not tooting my own horn. It's for context.

I didn't miss your record of does...it was integrated into your counter productive commentary on the time/cost considerations of doe harvests.

I am also glad I don't pay for a QDMA membership when all the info is taken straight from university level research on whitetail biology/ecology.

Your didactic know-it-all name dropping style is grating...I don't care how good you are or how much you know.

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Edited April 26, 2014 by Meat Manager

[phade]

I didn't miss your record of does...it was integrated into your counter productive laissez faire commentary on the time/cost considerations of doe harvests. I am also glad I don't pay for a QDMA membership when all the info is taken straight from university level research on whitetail biology/ecology. Your didactic know-it-all name dropping style is grating...I don't care how good you are or how much you know. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Again, the internet doesn't show emotion or any of the important tangents of conversation. You think I am name dropping and I'm simply giving you context when you tell me I don't know a thing about rudimentary deer biology from a state POV.

 

The fact is, if you blindly follow agency dictations, you set yourself up for failure on a macro level. NY was there 10 years ago and it was horrible. Saying people need to go fill all of their tags or face snipers is silly talk. They issue more tags knowing that they won't be filled. They don't want 100% of their tags that they issued filled. If they did, we'd have a herd disaster. The emphasis needs to be on accurate management practices with a balanced approach to population control. Just because a tag exists doesn't mean it must be filled. Legally you have every right, but that's completely different.

Edited April 26, 2014 by phade