Another plan for gun confiscation in NY

[Mr VJP]

They're getting real creative now.  Die, and your guns are taken.

 

Blasting the Buffalo, New York police departments announcement that it would begin confiscating guns registered to recently-deceased citizens as " not only cold-hearted" but " ghoulish" The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms has described the act as one you might expect in a police state, but not the United States. Estates of Buffalo residents have 15 days to either dispose of firearms or surrender them to police who may hold onto them for as long as two years.

 

 

[DirtTime]

The Buffalo thing was covered in another thread.

I do have a question though.....

Seeing you have to be at least 18 years of age to purchase a firearm in NY. The Safe Act. All the other crap that's a part of NY. How do minors still legally hunt with a shotgun or rifle?

 

Or better yet, if all the new laws go into effect, how will they remain to legally have a firearm in their possession hunting or at the range?

[bubba]

I guess you missed the part where Cuomo and the feds want to raise the ago to hunt to 21

[bubba]

     THE SECRET SO CALLED "AMMO DATABASE" THAT WAS BORN OUT OF NY SAFE IS THE MOST DANGEROUS ASPECT OF NY SAFE.

From a whistleblower in the IT Dept in Albany.

The public has no idea how invasive this application is going to be, I work for NYS ITS but am not involved directly in the project, this is all "watercooler talk". Most of the details on the application are already public information (the safe act) which tells the story well enough on how its going to work. When I tell you that you will NEVER want to buy ammo in new york again I am not kidding. I highly suggest you all read up on S 400.02 & 400.03 here http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld&bn=S02230... Keep in mind what they list in the safe act is probably NOT the only information they are seeking out; you can be sure other personal avenues will be tied into the application based on how loosely the safe act was written. Now granted the same lurking eyes who will be running this already have access to this personal information (criminal record, warrants, mental health checks and record, etc), this is just going to be a convenient way to display a lot of all that information it in one central location. Again I am not breaking laws blowing a whistle, I am simply extending logic and common sense based on the parties involved who will be running this application and what is written in the safe act.

Sections to take note of:

400.02

Line 19-23 (application can be used to revoke pistol permits and subsequently seize all firearms in the home)

Line 23-25 (if you have a pending permit application, they can look this up, see you have 10,000 rounds of ammo already purchased and use their discretion to say you have too much ammo in their eyes and if we give you this permit and gun you could go nuts with it all; denied application. See the section on pistol permits and mental health in the safe act for more information on how wide the doors are made in regards to discretion now)

Line 28-33 (this can be used to deny or revoke applicants then seize any and all arms in the home. As in, you apply for a permit now, somehow get denied, the have the ability to now come and take all your long guns which they know you clearly have since they see you have purchase history as you keep buying ammo for them. So in other words, the big buyers of ammo will undoubtedly be flagged, when a permit application comes up they might use their discretion to deny it then come confiscate. Or if you already have a permit, they will see the flag and start extending a search on your records to dig up something to revoke the permit and come confiscate everything.)

400.03
Line 49-56 & line 1 and 2 from the next page (Date, time, name, age, occupation(how they are getting this I have no idea), residence, the caliber, quantity, manufacture, serial number, or other identification marks such as microstamped casings {which can track a shooting events evidence right to the purchaser} all that will be recorded at the time of purchase.

Line 15-21 (must contact and provide ie. Submit for record, the NYS Database. This affirms the above that all the revealing information on the purchase is to be submitted and recorded.

Line 22, 23 & 33, 32 (all transactions are logged with a unique identifier)

Line 39-40 (Your purchase will be recorded and will be accessible by NYSP at any time, for one year. I have doubts they will actually time out and not be retained longer)

Line 46, 47 (NYSP can share this information with local police and sheriffs)

Line 47-50 (just because they know you bought a ton of ammo they cant use this to say you may have committed a crime, BUT if they have other information tending to prove you have/could have committed a crime this information WILL be used against you.)

Line 53-56, line 7-13 (Even if the system is down they can use NICS to OK the sale, but they still have to record the transaction and provide them to the NYSP in paper form.

So there you have it. Thats the cliffs notes to all this BS. I am sorry for the local businesses who will no longer be selling me any ammunition. I for one vow to never buy a single round ever again within the borders of NYS once this system is put into place. I hope you reading this do the same. They will never make it illegal to travel with your own personal property, so I will gladly send my money out of state to make my purchases. Please copy paste this entire message and send it all over the place. Get the word out so people arent blindsided by this when its put in place, and prove to the government attempting to control something they never will be able to do, that this is yet again another worthless initiative. FUAC

The link above is the amendments that were put in place, the full safe act is here: http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/S2230-2013

 

[jrm]

They're getting real creative now.  Die, and your guns are taken.

 

Blasting the Buffalo, New York police departments announcement that it would begin confiscating guns registered to recently-deceased citizens as " not only cold-hearted" but " ghoulish" The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms has described the act as one you might expect in a police state, but not the United States. Estates of Buffalo residents have 15 days to either dispose of firearms or surrender them to police who may hold onto them for as long as two years.

 

I am with you on the concept, but I don't quite understand the timing on this "announcement."

 

This has been around for a long time. As you know, in NYS you must have a pistol license to possess a pistol. If there is only 1 pistol license holder in your home and he/she passes away, you have always had 14 days to either surrender the pistols or make other arrangements (to another license holder or FFL). What has changed?

 

 

Of course, the "assault weapon" thing is fairly new. For anyone who ended up registering one, life is much more difficult. You have to get it out of state.

 

 

 

The Buffalo thing was covered in another thread.

I do have a question though.....

Seeing you have to be at least 18 years of age to purchase a firearm in NY. The Safe Act. All the other crap that's a part of NY. How do minors still legally hunt with a shotgun or rifle?

 

Or better yet, if all the new laws go into effect, how will they remain to legally have a firearm in their possession hunting or at the range?

 

 

 

You have to be 18 to purchase, but not 18 to operate. As long as the gun is purchased by and adult, a minor is permitted to use it.

 

Oddly enough, this also applies to pistols. You must be 21 to get a pistol license in NY. However a 14 year old can shoot that pistol without a license (certain conditions apply). Once he turns 21, he can no longer handle that pistol without a license.

Edited November 18, 2014 by jrm

[BKhunter]

That is pretty scary and I am with you on taking my business out of state if this is ever implemented. I believe I brought this up in another thread but I will raise these points again Some of the stupidity in this law.

 

1. If I reload who is stop me from collecting brass at a range that is linked to all these other people and reloading that so it's not linked to me (I guess Albany didn't think how that can ruin innocent lives if those casings were used in a crime if micro stamping went into effect with ammo).

 

2.The safe act was born from mass shootings. Can you please tell me when a mass shooting occurred and they didn't know every detail as where the gun was from, how they received the weapon etc. before the safe act

 

3. I believe this last concern to be the one that really should be heard by every person who helped write and voted for the safe act....."REMIND ME AGAIN HOW CRIMINALS FOLLOW GUN LAWS!!!"

 

[BKhunter]

I am with you on the concept, but I don't quite understand the timing on this "announcement."

 

I believe this is something the Buffalo Billion bought.

[Mr VJP]

JRM, the timing is about the fact they are now going to come to the home of the deceased and confiscate the guns.

 

That was never done before.

 

[jrm]

JRM, the timing is about the fact they are now going to come to the home of the deceased and confiscate the guns.

 

That was never done before.

 

That makes sense. I had no idea this wasn't the process all along. I though I heard stories (unconfirmed) of this happening in NYC and on Long Island.

 

Prior to this, if the pistol owner died, the surviving family members were in possession of an unregistered pistol. That, I believe, is a crime in NYS. If they were license holders, it could also be cause for revocation of their license.

 

What was the procedure in the past? Surely, the police didn't ignore the pistols registered to deceased people?  While I don't agree with the law, after the 14 day grace period you are in violation of the law. The family has options during that 14 days. Any pistol license holder should have a plan in place to avoid turning their surviving relatives into unwitting crimnals.

 

I agree the tactics suck, but this is really just an aggressive enforcement of a law that has been around for a long time. The original post and the article it references imply that this is something new when for a long time it has been a crime for an unlicensed person to possess an unregistered handgun.

 

The problem to me is the law itself which needs to be changed.

 

If these are swat team style raids, or police forcing entry into homes to search, that changes everything.

Edited November 18, 2014 by jrm

[bubba]

It is not just pistols in the home, it is all guns.  get off the pistol part long guns are included also.  Plus now if a family member dies, the family has to hire an attorney to make alog of the guns and turn it over to the state.  The state then decides which the family can keep and which the state takes (confiscates)  all guns in the home have to be logged. 

[jrm]

It is not just pistols in the home, it is all guns.  get off the pistol part long guns are included also.  Plus now if a family member dies, the family has to hire an attorney to make alog of the guns and turn it over to the state.  The state then decides which the family can keep and which the state takes (confiscates)  all guns in the home have to be logged. 

 

 

The quote here and the original article references "registered" guns. This means pistols and AW registrations under the safe act. Prior to the safe act, it meant handguns only.

 

Even the overly intrusive safe act allows for exclusion to the "private sale" rules between spouses and children.

 

If I have legally owned rifles which are not subject to registration, they automatically pass to my wife upon my death (barring any will provision to the contrary). Assuming she is legal to own a rifle, they are legally hers. 

 

Are you claiming that if I lived in Buffalo, the police would somehow figure out I owned these "unregistered" rifles and come to my house 15 days later to confiscate? Those same rifles that she could go to gander mountain and purchase 10 minutes after the police left the house?

 

That's not what I took away from the article at all. It is also completely illegal for the police to do so. The confiscation would not stand up - even in a bizarro NY court.

 

 

Also, the list of guns (including long guns) filing does not apply to most people. It is only necessary when a list of assets is already required to be filed. That list will also include things like artwork, jewelry and other valuable items.

 

I have a real problem with the intrusive nature of it all. But it is not limited to guns... they want to know _everything_.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

 

Fox News:

Buffalo Police Commissioner Daniel Derrenda said at a press conference last week that the department will be sending people to collect guns that belong to pistol permit holders who had died so "they don't end up in the wrong hands." The department will cross reference pistol permit holders with death records and the guns will be collected when possible, he said.

 

 

 

 

Huffington Post:

Buffalo Police To Seize Handguns From Recently Deceased Permit Holders

 

"We recently started a program where we're cross referencing all the pistol permit holders with the death records and we're sending people out to collect the guns whenever possible," Police Commissioner Daniel Derenda said at a recent press conference, according to WGRZ.

 

WGRX.com

BUFFALO, NY – Buffalo Police say they're determined to get more guns off the streets and now they're checking to see whether pistol permit holders have passed away and what happened to their gun or guns.

 

 

 

Where are you getting the long gun confiscation from? I can't find an article or quote to confirm that.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2014 by jrm

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I am pretty up on the gun laws but what am I missing here? We are talking Buffalo, NY, right? aside from pistols and AW's who has a record of any long guns in a home?  In NYC I can see how they could because the folks down thee have to register every gun. Right before all my long guns fell off the boat in the middle of Ontario, no one had any idea of what my cabinet held.

[stoneam2006]

I am pretty up on the gun laws but what am I missing here? We are talking Buffalo, NY, right? aside from pistols and AW's who has a record of any long guns in a home? In NYC I can see how they could because the folks down thee have to register every gun. Right before all my long guns fell off the boat in the middle of Ontario, no one had any idea of what my cabinet held.

Damn thought I was only one that happened too...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

lately, It seems to happen a lot. Boats aren't what they used to be.

[Dom]

I guess you missed the part where Cuomo and the feds want to raise the ago to hunt to 21

I read about this the other day.They are trying to push this to far what a bunch of crap.

[Huntscreek]

Registration leads to confiscation Period. My gun will go where I go when I go, and I refuse to be made a criminal when I am exercising my Constitutional Rights. If you register they will get them.

[Mr VJP]

JRM, if the police go to a home to confiscate handguns or Black Rifles that were registered to a dead man, they come with a warrant to search for ALL guns in the home, because by not turning in the registered ones, the occupants are now considered felons, who cannot own ANY guns now.

 

ALL the guns in the home will be confiscated and ALL the occupants will be charged with possession of firearms illegally.

 

That's why this police action is so shocking.  It's reach is so far, it will allow the state to make felons out of more gun owners, thereby totally eliminating their 2nd Amendment rights.  And it's all LEGAL.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2014 by Mr VJP

[jrm]

VJP,

 

I follow what you are saying, but am not sure I agree. If you have actual examples of that exact situation happening, I would gladly admit I am wrong.

 

We are talking about permit holders only - be it pistol or registered "AWs." By not following the law, the surviving family is guilty of a crime. I can see your logic... once a felon, they no longer have the ability to own guns.

 

However, you need to be charged and convicted first. Coming to your home with a warrant doesn't make you a felon.

 

Are they actually using warrants? Are they actually conducting full home searches? They could simply be coming to the home and asking for the guns that are listed in the registration files. They don't need a warrant since (at least in the counties I know of) your pistol license terms give them the ability to come to your home to demand surrender of your registered guns. (In NYC< I believe they also claim the right to inspect the storage mechanism). If they want more than that, they need a warrant.

 

Are there actual situations of police also taking rifles which don't need to be registered? To do so legally, they would also have to arrest the homeowner (or surviving heir to the guns, assuming they know who that is) and arrest them on a felony charge.

 

Again the laws suck. This method of enforcement of bad laws is, at best, insensitive.

 

However, coming to a home to ask for the surrender of an illegally owned gun (i.e. unregistered pistol) is completely legal and has been for a while. I don't agree with it, but then I don't agree with many of over-reaching laws we have... I still follow them or face the penalty.

 

There is no legitimate basis to take a legal long gun. They have just as much legal authority to confiscate your car and refrigerator in these circumstances. Lawyers would be crawling out of the woodwork to fight a case like this because it is a slam dunk win.

 

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. If there are examples of full home searches or confiscation of long guns as you state, I would love to learn more. Based on the laws in place and the statements made in Buffalo, I am not sure that is actually happening.

[Mr VJP]

The whole point of the new agenda is that it now Can, and probably WILL, be happening.  I don't believe it is advisable to wait for it to happen before gun owners protest it's potential.

 

[philoshop]

The anti-gun zealots would like to see the government take all guns from the citizens, and so far the government is going along with this by making up laws that will make it easier for them to confiscate.

[jrm]

The whole point of the new agenda is that it now Can, and probably WILL, be happening.  I don't believe it is advisable to wait for it to happen before gun owners protest it's potential.

 

Original deleted. I think my original response may come across as argumentative which is not my intent. 

 

 

 

Bottom line, I truly hope you are wrong. If you are right, we are effectively living in a police state where the Constitution and all existing laws have no meaning. 

 

Then again, I hope they try it on someone. I don't think there is a court that would uphold such an action. There is nothing in the law to allow confiscation of legally owned property in these circumstances. The state/city would get slapped down and this practice would be officially prohibited.

Edited November 19, 2014 by jrm

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Original deleted. I think my original response may come across as argumentative which is not my intent. 

 

 

 

Bottom line, I truly hope you are wrong. If you are right, we are effectively living in a police state where the Constitution and all existing laws have no meaning. 

 

Then again, I hope they try it on someone. I don't think there is a court that would uphold such an action. There is nothing in the law to allow confiscation of legally owned property in these circumstances. The state/city would get slapped down and this practice would be officially prohibited.

 I didn't think they could mandate buying a product or be fined either and was sure the court was going to take action there as well. We know how that turned out.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Culvercreek hunt club

[fasteddie]

Gun Confiscation