Rubber buckshot - effective range?

[Curmudgeon]

I acquired some "Less Lethal" brand rubber buckshot to deal with a problem with domestic dogs at baited research sites. Does anyone know the effective range of this stuff?

 

I am also keeping some in the cabin the Dacks where we have had bear problems. Would the effective distance be different for dogs, deer and bears?

[wildcat junkie]

My concern with dogs would be lethality at close range.

[philoshop]

Depends on whether you're trying to hurt them or just scare them. Any of those three animals will probably be terrified by the sound alone. At least for a short while.

[Five Seasons]

what is a baited research site?

[Curmudgeon]

Don't want to kill them, just frighten and sting them. My concern is long range. Some of the sites have blinds for eagle trapping. Blinds range from 25 - 80 yards distant depending upon available cover. The sites with the biggest problems are about 25 and 50 yards from the bait.

 

A baited research site uses carcasses to draw in scavengers to a camera trap. Carcasses can be road-killed deer (properly licensed by NYSDEC Special Licenses Unit) or dead livestock.

 

Go to http://www.appalachianeagles.org/ for more information.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[skeets716]

Any FPS info on the shells you have?

 

[philoshop]

Anything with an even remotely predatory instinct is likely going to keep coming back. The deer aren't predators, obviously, and once they've satisfied their curiosity they'll stay away. House-dogs, coyotes, and bears will sometimes get the idea that the area is unsafe, but not often enough to to make an attempt at scaring them away a useful tool unless you're there 24/7. The birds are actually somewhat 'smarter' than the mammals in this respect. They'll abandon a free meal long before the ground-based carnivores will.

[Curmudgeon]

The deer were only a thought for my garden since they know exactly how far I can throw a rock. They show up on the cameras but just walking through. They do have thick fur - at least in cold weather. I never really handled any in the summer so don't know how dense it is.

 

No FPS on the box. I'm thinking of experimenting with corrugated cardboard. At a range where it penetrates the cardboard, I'll figure I'm too close. If it doesn't dent it, I will figure I'm too far. Does that sound reasonable?

 

The coyotes here are hunted and do not approach during the day. Even a IR camera flash sends them running - usually. Even if they feed, they become part of the data set - which isn't just about eagles. The domestic dogs - on the other hand - eat a lot and move bait all over. They have no concern with human smells.

[Lawdwaz]

I acquired some "Less Lethal" brand rubber buckshot to deal with a problem with domestic dogs at baited research sites. Does anyone know the effective range of this stuff?

 

I am also keeping some in the cabin the Dacks where we have had bear problems. Would the effective distance be different for dogs, deer and bears?

 

Have someone shoot you with it and then you'll know what you are doing to someones pet.

 

But before you do that why not check with the DEC and see if that is legal to do.  I'd bet it isn't..............................

[jjb4900]

Have someone shoot you with it and then you'll know what you are doing to someones pet.

 

But before you do that why not check with the DEC and see if that is legal to do.  I'd bet it isn't..............................

I have a neighbor near our house that was issued a permit and some rubber buckshot by DEC to deal with nuisance bear, so you're probably right...I'b be surprised if you could just shoot nuisance animals with it as you see fit.

[philoshop]

When you put food out the critters will come to it. I don't know of any way that you can be selective about exactly which critters come in to a baited site. Ask a trapper how they avoid house pets and they'll  tell you to stay away from places with house pets nearby. It's the only thing I've ever found to work reliably.

[Dr. Honk]

Taken from the DEC we site.

 

To hunt - means to pursue, shoot, kill or capture (other than trap) wildlife and includes all lesser acts that disturb or worry wildlife whether or not they result in taking. Hunting also includes all acts to assist another person in taking wildlife.

 

I might re-think the rubber buck shot thing. Just Sayin'

[Curmudgeon]

But before you do that why not check with the DEC and see if that is legal to do.  I'd bet it isn't..............................

 

Maybe you are right. Dogs are not wildlife but the shooting part might be a problem - even if no permanent damage is done. Back to plan A - the 5 gallon air tank, ball valve, long hose and nozzle under a pound of cayenne pepper: the remote controlled bear canister.

 

The bear situation is different. It was in the camp next door last summer. I don't care if it is legal or not, a bear trying to get into the camp is a public hazard.

 

BTW - These aren't someone's sweet house pets. This is the 3rd season of a 3 dog group. They range a long distance. The problem is, once they learned of the site, the distance matters little. Responsible owners keep their pets on their own property, especially after learning of a problem.

 

[RSRAINS]

Rock Salt may make them remember.

[Lawdwaz]

Could be the elusive coydog...........................

[DirtTime]

What Eagles are you trying to trap? Are you a member of Eagles Aloft?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2014 by JustRob

[DirtTime]

Maybe you are right. Dogs are not wildlife but the shooting part might be a problem - even if no permanent damage is done. Back to plan A - the 5 gallon air tank, ball valve, long hose and nozzle under a pound of cayenne pepper: the remote controlled bear canister.

 

The bear situation is different. It was in the camp next door last summer. I don't care if it is legal or not, a bear trying to get into the camp is a public hazard.

 

BTW - These aren't someone's sweet house pets. This is the 3rd season of a 3 dog group. They range a long distance. The problem is, once they learned of the site, the distance matters little. Responsible owners keep their pets on their own property, especially after learning of a problem.

 

 

 

See, this is why some of us get pissed off. That part in red. To do what you feel is right is one thing. But, to post in a public forum, "I am going to break the law!" is just stupid. Yeah, I said it's stupid! If you wanna break the law, then keep that to yourself.

[Curmudgeon]

See, this is why some of us get pissed off. That part in red. To do what you feel is right is one thing. But, to post in a public forum, "I am going to break the law!" is just stupid. Yeah, I said it's stupid! If you wanna break the law, then keep that to yourself.

 

Just to be clear, I am talking about a bear breaking into an occupied camp. Call any cop and ask him what you should do in this situation. The last time it happened, my mother went after the bear with a corn broom. It worked but it's nuts.

 

The eagles are Golden Eagles. Not associated with that group.

 

I talk to DEC staff regularly. I assure you all, I will do nothing about the dogs without consulting them.

 

Re pet safety: This is the responsibility of the pet owner. Ranging cats are killed and eaten by coyotes and eagles. Dogs are shot, hit by cars and in one case in my neighborhood, poisoned after months of night-time barking - not by me but I suspect I know who. I've owned pets my whole life. They stay home.

 

[philoshop]

Dogs and cats that are too free-roaming, or even feral in some cases, are definitely a problem in many areas. They don't really have the fear of humans that 'wild' animals do. It's more like a contempt for humans, which can make them nasty to deal with.

[Curmudgeon]

Considering the timing of this discussion, irony, serendipity and a wildlife tragedy intersected and brought me together with an ECO on Christmas day. After providing the requested service, I asked him about the rubber buckshot and bears (having already been convinced by some of you that using it on dogs and deer were a bad idea). He told me that DEC did give it out at one time for problem bears but liability concerns stopped them. (This left me imagining the many ways people might use it.) I asked about the legality of shooting a bear breaking into a camp. He said the problem they have is with people shooting bears they claim were trying to get into a home/camp when they were not. There is a dead bear that was shot in the yard. There is evidence the bear was a nuisance but none suggesting it tried to enter the house.

 

I was left with the impression that killing a bear that is actually breaking into your house is perfectly acceptable behavior. He also seemed to encourage the use of rubber buckshot on these bears. However, he does not like rubber slugs because they cause serious damage. The minimum range he recommended was 15 yards. Any closer might penetrate skin. I still don't know the maximum distance.

 

 

[DirtTime]

Well, if you see the bear you can get inside. Unless it tries to break the door down there really is no reason to shoot at it.  Even with rubber bullets. Now is there?

To shoot at a bear when in bear country because it was rummaging your trash can seems a bit extreme. Even with rubber bullets. You know the possibilities, you know how to keep a bear out of your area or at least keep trash and food up and away. You take the risk.

Plenty of hikers using tents encounter black bears all the time. They see no need to kill that bear unless it attacks. How many bear attacks have you heard about in NYS? Not many. Not many at all.

 

 

[Lawdwaz]

Considering the timing of this discussion, irony, serendipity and a wildlife tragedy intersected and brought me together with an ECO on Christmas day. After providing the requested service, I asked him about the rubber buckshot and bears (having already been convinced by some of you that using it on dogs and deer were a bad idea). He told me that DEC did give it out at one time for problem bears but liability concerns stopped them. (This left me imagining the many ways people might use it.) I asked about the legality of shooting a bear breaking into a camp. He said the problem they have is with people shooting bears they claim were trying to get into a home/camp when they were not. There is a dead bear that was shot in the yard. There is evidence the bear was a nuisance but none suggesting it tried to enter the house.

 

I was left with the impression that killing a bear that is actually breaking into your house is perfectly acceptable behavior. He also seemed to encourage the use of rubber buckshot on these bears. However, he does not like rubber slugs because they cause serious damage. The minimum range he recommended was 15 yards. Any closer might penetrate skin. I still don't know the maximum distance.

 

If a bear stepped one foot onto my porch he wouldn't get a second foot up there............and it wouldn't be a toy load coming out of my shotgun/rifle/pistol.  Why play around?

 

Kind of like when someone asks me if my pistol is loaded for concealed carry; of course, what good is an empty gun?  YMMV

[Bowshotmuzzleloader]

Well, if you see the bear you can get inside. Unless it tries to break the door down there really is no reason to shoot at it. Even with rubber bullets. Now is there?

To shoot at a bear when in bear country because it was rummaging your trash can seems a bit extreme. Even with rubber bullets. You know the possibilities, you know how to keep a bear out of your area or at least keep trash and food up and away. You take the risk.

Plenty of hikers using tents encounter black bears all the time. They see no need to kill that bear unless it attacks. How many bear attacks have you heard about in NYS? Not many. Not many at all.[/quot

What type of experience, encounters do you have, or have you had with bears ..

Edited December 27, 2014 by Bowshotmuzzleloader

[Skillet]

Well, if you see the bear you can get inside. Unless it tries to break the door down there really is no reason to shoot at it.  Even with rubber bullets. Now is there?

To shoot at a bear when in bear country because it was rummaging your trash can seems a bit extreme. Even with rubber bullets. You know the possibilities, you know how to keep a bear out of your area or at least keep trash and food up and away. You take the risk.

Plenty of hikers using tents encounter black bears all the time. They see no need to kill that bear unless it attacks. How many bear attacks have you heard about in NYS? Not many. Not many at all.

 

So following your logic, if you're in the ghetto & someone attempts to mug you, you have no right to defend yourself? I mean, if you can see them coming, you should lock yourself in the car while they nicely put it up on blocks and strip it? You are in "criminal country", so it's really your fault, right?

Got it.

[Jennifer]

Maybe you are right. Dogs are not wildlife but the shooting part might be a problem - even if no permanent damage is done. Back to plan A - the 5 gallon air tank, ball valve, long hose and nozzle under a pound of cayenne pepper: the remote controlled bear canister.

 

[...]

 

BTW - These aren't someone's sweet house pets. This is the 3rd season of a 3 dog group. They range a long distance. The problem is, once they learned of the site, the distance matters little. Responsible owners keep their pets on their own property, especially after learning of a problem.

 

 

I'm afraid you are on the right track. I am not going to argue if it's right or wrong, but, after conferring with law enforcement, dog wardens, and roaming problem dogs with my livestock (chickens), you don't really want to do anything to harm the dogs unless they are posing immediate danger to person or property. Then, I have been advised to shoot them (vs. trying to ping them to 'scare' them) and immediately call authorities.

Do no harm (nonlethal), or you can be hit with cruelty charges. Really. I asked about paintballs since I figured it would scare the dog off AND alert the owner that the dog was obviously someplace it was not wanted. I was told that I could be then hit with cruelty charges so I disregarded the idea.

 

Dogs at large in NYS are indeed illegal (with exception to hunting dogs legally on a hunt) and are a nightmare for many people for the reasons you mentioned, but the trouble comes in with how to deal with them.

 

In a neighborhood situation, and with dogs that are not dangerous, one can catch them then call the dog warden or take them to a shelter, but that is not always a possible solution in rural areas where dogs won't approach people, or with dogs that are overly aggressive.

 

You may want to call the local folks in charge of dog control/dog warden and let them know the description of the problem dogs. They may not realistically be able to do do anything, especially if the dogs are ranging far and don't have a 'home', but getting a paper trail started can be helpful in the long run, especially if other people have trouble with them (especially folks with livestock).

 

Edited December 27, 2014 by Jennifer