the end of mentored hunting?

[G-Man]

http://www.ussportsmen.org/news/pa-game-commission-proposal-attacks-mentored-hunting/

[Sogaard]

In PA, and only for those under 9...and it is just a proposal being floated.

 

In NY the age is 12 for bow and 14 for rifle, this wouldn't effect NY's current policy in any way.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Sogaard

[Culvercreek hunt club]

In PA, and only for those under 9...and it is just a proposal being floated.

 

In NY the age is 12 for bow and 14 for rifle, this wouldn't effect NY's current policy in any way.

yet

[Sogaard]

I mostly hunt public land, I'd have to say if NY let 7-8 year olds have rifles during part of bow season, mentor or no mentor, that would be a weekend I would definitely stay inside.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Sogaard

[Sogaard]

As a side note, I hate slanted articles that don't site the source material.  I'd really like to hear the reasoning behind the proposal before passing judgement.  Summing it up as "due to concerns about a few law breakers" is shady in my book.

[JoeHunter]

As a side note, I hate slanted articles that don't site the source material.  I'd really like to hear the reasoning behind the proposal before passing judgement.  Summing it up as "due to concerns about a few law breakers" is shady in my book.

I agree. I totally respect the U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance but I did a google search and found nothing on the subject.  In a state where hunting is more popular than the beloved Steelers, I would expect this to be all over the news.  I don't know,but this must be some Philadelphia liberals idea and I would bet $ their mentor program survives.

[G-Man]

Original story from deer n deer hunting..

[reeltime]

this is not a rumor.  there is a proposal with the BOC of the pa game commission to make the minimum age for big game ( in pa that would include deer and turkey for the mentor youth,  bear and elk we never included)

 

 

They "claim" the 2 issues driving this is  safety and adults using mentored youth tags to kill another antlered deer.

 

first issue of safety,,  the mentor has to be within arms reach of the child, mentor has to carry, load and unload the firearm. to put it in simple terms basically the child lines up the sights and pulls the trigger.  I believe its been available to youths for around 9 years, although the first few years it was for small game only. 

There have been very few if ANY shooting related injuries involving a mentored youth.  going by statistics the weekend of the mentored youth hunt would be the safest in the woods, the same can not be said about adult hunting seasons. 

 

Adults using mentor youth tags ( mentor youth do not have to follow the antler restrictions) so the BOC An legislators are going to penalize all kids because of a few poachers. if they don't use a kids tag they will use a wife or girlfriends tag,  the game wardens hands are tied basically with this scenario unless they either witness this in  person or a witness will testify they saw the adult shoot the deer or turkey.  they can not interview a minor without a guardians approval.

 

Like I said the first few years it was strictly small game,  there was very little grumblings about it from anyone. WOW when they included deer and turkey you wouldn't believe the comments, basically what it all boils down to is there are a number of people that think a kid might shoot "their" deer, "their" turkey, "their" duck.... They claim safety as a concern well past safety records show otherwise, so now they go with the poacher scenario, does that happen? without a doubt there are scumbags out there that will take advantage of the system just like they did prior to the mentor program and just as they do without needing the mentor program tags.

 

there are 40 + pages on this topic on the huntingpa site.  some of the comments as you can imagine will leave you shaking your head.  I have always tried to help get kids involved in hunting, this past fall I took one of our grandsons out deer hunting in pa. at 8 years old he is a really good shot, fully understands firearm safety and knows what to do and say and do if around guns when an adult is not around ( what I mean is if he is with a friend and his friend picks up a gun with out an adult present)   if this passes it will be a real shame that peoples greed and jealousy will be the root cause of taking opportunities away from our young hunters.

[mike rossi]

I agree. I totally respect the U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance but I did a google search and found nothing on the subject.  In a state where hunting is more popular than the beloved Steelers, I would expect this to be all over the news.  I don't know,but this must be some Philadelphia liberals idea and I would bet $ their mentor program survives.

 

I have talked to a number of PA hunters out in the field. Several have told me the hunting community is skeptical about the success rate of seven year old girls (and boys). Apparently the success rate on turkey and deer for kids 7 or 8 years old is about the same as experienced adults. This was assumed to be the result of the mentors doing the shooting.

 

Although the USSA indicates in this article it is "only a few law breakers" I dont know what the facts are. I do know that the USSA are quite the rabble rousers and I agree with maybe half of what they push. The other thing to look at is the nature of the law breaking. Even if it isn't widespread, teaching kids to poach is a direct contradiction to the purpose of the youth program. I think the purpose of the program has to be consider too, not just how many people are poaching. As unfair as it is, the use of "collective punishment" is not unheard of in the world of hunting. A few idiots often cause private and public lands to be closed to hunting. 

 

I am biased here. I wanted to stay out of this, but since I am aware of what the HUNTERS are saying in PA, I was compelled to comment. I have to admit I am not a fan of neither youth seasons, mentored hunt programs,of this kind, nor the USSA... 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Isn't it possible that the mentors (parents) taking these kids out may be the more dedicated and experienced members of the hunting community in general? All the ones I know in NY that have young kids that they take out seem to be the most successful ones that I know on their own hunts. That could easily inflate the youth success percentages. The casual turkey hunter (for example) may be as likely to drag their child out of bed and may not have instilled a desire in the kids because it isn't a passion and that passion isn't passed on. Couple this with the fact that most youth seasons are before game is really pressured by a regular season. I am not concerned about the youth success percentages and don't believe it can be used as a gauge for whether illegal activity is taking place. (We all know some is).   

[G-Man]

I think it just comes down to less successfull hunters being jelous of the kids who are probably out with more successful hunters. I hear the same thing in nys youth hunt. Changing the law doest help against illegal hunters.if poachers are the problem more officers to enforce the laws.removing g his opportunity. .. It only hurts the law abiding ones.

Seems,the same for every gun law they push thru, punish the law abiding instead of enforcing existing laws.

Edited January 16, 2015 by G-Man

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Seems,the same for every gun law they push thru, punish the law abiding instead of enforcing existing laws.

Exact same mentality. Take them away form the law abiding to stop the law breakers.

[mike rossi]

Culver,

 

I was thinking the same thing. As a matter of fact, I said in that post "I don't know what the facts are".(I also said collective punishment is unfair)  But I heard this from several hunters, on different days, in different locations.. You know as well as I do that often what you hear from a handful of hunters is often pervasive throughout the hunting community. 

 

However, for all I know, maybe some incredulous harvest data exists? How would you believe something like 500 gobblers bagged by seven year olds? I am just throwing that out, but like someone else said, we havent heard PGC's take on this. The article by the USSA just leaves that to our imagination.... More info needed, as they say...

[jjb4900]

safety aside, I would think there has got to be a substantial amount of violators being caught engaged in illegal activity to have prompted this....or one would think anyway.

[JoeHunter]

PA just elected a new liberal Democrat governor. I'm not saying Wolf is behing this but the timing makes me pause.

[reeltime]

yup the new governor and the fact that the let got the NW region boc person yesterday who has been very vocal of his disapproval of the elimination if big game and a minimum age for mentored youth just smells afowl!! with his termination of a non pay position now leaves the board at 7.... the meetings are the 25th &26th. wonder if this discussion and vote will happen during the live stream of the meeting or will happen behind closed doors like last time.

 

[mike rossi]

The governor (who probably hunts himself being from PA) the liberals, here we go again, even when it is in a state most of us don't hunt..

 

Here is the rule change proposal along with the commentary for the PGA's rational. There are much more important issues on this plan, such as the PGA acquiring additional state game land - yet these right bent pro hunting orgs narrow in on THIS issue, and so many of you follow like sheep... 

 

I want to reiterate, although I am not one who sees much value in either youth seasons, mentored youth, mentered adult hunts when set by state law, I am not passionately against them. Secondly, my comment earlier to culver, about skeptical success rates of very young kids has been somewhat verified by numerous internet chatter by fathers claiming thier 6,7, 8,9 year olds have all ready taken 2,3, 4 deer.... 

 

Below is the relevant section extracted from the draft. If someone wants the complete link - to read about much more important proposals, I will post it.... 

 

PROPOSED RULE MAKING
G. Amend 58 Pa. Code § 147.804.
Commentary: The Commission has received extensive public comment regarding
concern over the appropriateness of young children’s abilities to utilize
high-powered firearms to harvest big game, as well as allegations of adults
utilizing the harvest tags of mentored youth unlawfully. Wildlife
Conservation Officers have encountered evidence of the allegations in
several enforcement operations this past hunting season. The removal of
eligibility for mentored youth under the age of 9 to harvest big game is
intended to minimize both concerns expressed in public comment. The
Commission is proposing to amend § 147.804 by removing deer and
turkey from the list of species mentored youth under the age of 9 are
eligible to harvest.
CHAPTER 147. SPECIAL PERMITS
Subchapter X. MENTORED HUNTING PROGRAM PERMIT
§ 147.804. General.
* * * * *
© Species limitation.
(1) [A mentored youth’s hunting eligibility is restricted to the
following species: squirrel, woodchuck, coyote, deer and wild turkey.] The hunting eligibility of
a mentored youth under the age of 9 is restricted to the following species: squirrel, woodchuck
and coyote.
(2) The hunting eligibility of a mentored youth 9 years of age or older
is restricted to the following species: squirrel, woodchuck, coyote, deer and wild turkey.
(3) A mentored adult’s hunting eligibility is restricted to the following
species: squirrel, ruffed grouse, rabbit, pheasant, bobwhite quail, hares, porcupine, woodchuck,
crow, coyote, antlerless deer and wild turkey.
* * * * *
 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Mike,

 

I think it is sad for us as hunters that the default thought for very good success is "they are criminals and cheaters".

[NFA-ADK]

I would think that the success is due to very good mentors, poaching aside I think it would be a travesty to stop this program.  At this young age most boys are not involved with girls yet but video games take priority.  Anything that gets these young kids out of the house and involved with hunting and the outdoors is a great thing as long as they are willing.  Kids under the age of 10 are very impressionable and a good mentor will get them started on their own journey into the great world of hunting.  Stopping these programs would hamper new hunters entering the sport.  And that is a bad thing because our numbers are down.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I mostly hunt public land, I'd have to say if NY let 7-8 year olds have rifles during part of bow season, mentor or no mentor, that would be a weekend I would definitely stay inside.

 

Why? Do you have some type of data showing a trend in hunters in that age range being involved in hunting accidents in states that allow it? If you do, Id like to read it.