Anyone else have property in the wind farm project zone?

[jjb4900]

is there any type of permit or approval required from the Town to have one installed?

[phade]

is there any type of permit or approval required from the Town to have one installed?

 

I can't imagine there not being a very thorough process to get one of those puppies up.

[jjb4900]

I can't imagine there not being a very thorough process to get one of those puppies up.

I know I've gotten several certified letters over the years from neighbors seeking variances to do work on their homes that exceeded current zoning / building laws....that gave neighbors a chance to protest if they wanted. I wonder if that happens with these type of things.

[First-light]

The project is going through a permitting stage right now. The state gov has gotten more involved in the past couple of years. It was mostly up to the town to permit now both have their jobs to do.

 

In a significant reform aimed at encouraging investment in clean energy technology, Governor Andrew Cuomo on August 4, 2011, signed into law the Power New York Act of 2011, Chapter 388 of the Laws of 2011, enacting Article 10 of the Public Service Law, establishing a unified siting review process for major electric generating facilities; that is, facilities with a generating capacity of 25 MW or more. The New York Department of Public Service and the New York Department of Environmental Conservation adopted implementing regulations on July 17, 2012: Chapter X Certification of Major Electric Generating Facilities,16 NYCRR Part 1000 and Analyzing Environmental Justice Issues in Siting of Major Electric Generating Facilities, 6 NYCRR Part 487. After July 17, 2012, all applicants for permits to construct major electric generating facilities must follow Article 10. In addition, applicants who had applied for permits or licenses before that date, along with applicants for permits or licenses for certain other types of electric generating facilities excluded from Article 10, may elect to follow Article 10.

Article 10 creates an administrative agency lodged within the Department of Public Service, the Board on Electric Generation Siting and the Environment, to conduct the reviews and make final administrative siting decisions. The Board has seven members; five are agency heads (the "Permanent Board") and two are appointed on a project-specific basis (the local, ad hoc public members). The new law provides a unified review process for the state permits, licenses, and other approvals required to site, construct, and operate a major electric generating facility. Department of Environmental Conservation review of permit applications under federally-delegated or approved Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, and Resource Conservation and Recovery Act programs is coordinated with, and conducted through, the Article 10 review. The Department of State's coastal zone consistency determination is also coordinated with the Article 10 review. Federal permitting and licensing reviews may be coordinated with the Article 10 review. Article 10 provides for consideration of local laws, and Board decisions must provide reasons for deviation from local substantive requirements. Article 10 seeks to promote early and effective public participation in the siting process, facilitating communication between the applicant and interested persons, to minimize later delays and reduce the likelihood of litigation challenging siting decisions. It provides numerous public participation opportunities, including the distribution of "intervenor funds" derived from application fees to enable municipalities and local parties to hire technical experts and lawyers to assist them in participating in the proceeding.^[

Edited January 29, 2015 by First-light

[jrm]

Do property values plummet with these? Not sure, but a good question. Everyone throws that out there, but I haven't seen anyone post proof of that. I'm sure logically it may make sense, but is there an equal interest in development of the resource that keeps prices as high or higher? Similar to fracking...event he speculation of it alone drove values up, and I think one would say that they'd probably rather have a wind turbine over fracking.

 

I have some land in an area that was targeted for wind turbines. It all ended up getting shot down, but I did follow the subject for a while in the area.

 

 

Do land values drop when these are installed? I can't say for sure. When I was looking for land, I had two real estate agents advise me against buying in the area due to the (at the time) pending wind projects. I can say for sure that the real estate market in the area was much slower than it should have been at the time. There were plenty of deals available and many people wanted to "get out" before the wind deal was a fait accompli. Scare tactics based on a false assumption? Very possibly. However, the reality is that land was selling for below market. I used this fact to get a good price on my land.

 

One point of your's I disagree with is the possibility of the land price going up.  In the few projects in my area that could not have happened.

 

The wind companies come in and pretty much know how many turbines they want and where they will go. They approach those landowners and make their deals. (Read about the wind project in Meredith to see how clever they are. They plan their towers around the town council's land to get the "decision makers" on board from the start). This is all done family quickly so the "winners" and "losers" are set at the beginning. After that point, you are either buying a parcel with a tower already on it or one with a view of a tower. None of the projects I have seen have opportunity for any "expansion" so others can cash in later.

 

 

I see your point about doing the right thing for yourself and your family. Personally, I think these things are monstrosities and I am not sure I could screw over my neighbors for $10k/year. Would 25 towers at $250k/yr make a difference. Even if the deal only lasted a few years, that $250k would buy a nice piece of land somewhere else. I am honest enough to say I would find it difficult to walk away - especially when I know my neighbors would take the deal in a heartbeat.

 

The fact is that they would never approach me. Having seen their tactics, they target the folks who write the ordinances which allow them to build the towers.

Edited January 29, 2015 by jrm

[jrm]

Don't blame the landowner. Blame the residents who didn't value the views and community resources within the townships enough to protect them. We don't allow garbage dumps to proliferate, we don't allow tar paper shacks to dot the landscape, and there is no need that any town has to allow 400' whirligigs to blot out the wooded hills either.

 

These companies don't just come in and find a piece of land to build on. They do their homework and approach the "right" people. They also provide all their propaganda to these same decision makers. 

 

How many 3rd generation farmers really understand the ramifications of a 400' tower in their pasture? (No offense to farmers - urbanites are just as ignorant on the topic.) They are "sold" by slick company reps and handed packages of "scientific" studies showing how "safe" this "green" energy is. They are not told about any potential downside, only about the _potential_ income (which is sold as guaranteed). They look like saviors the the family farmer who is just getting by (crushed by NY taxes and over-regulation).

 

These decision makers are then sent to town hall in their official capacity to approve these plans.

 

How are residents in a strong position to question all this "science?" Who is capable of refuting the wind company's claims? In the areas I am familiar with, there is no such thing as "broadband" - you are not going to "google" anything meaningful on a dial-up connection. Many of these people would gladly protect their town, but have only been exposed to one side of the issue.

 

Check out the documentary "Windfall" about the Meredith Wind Project. I can't find a direct link to the movie right now, but it is available somewhere online.

[bigpaul]

There are several wind turbines just east of Cleveland, Ohio in a commercial section of the city.  They look  like they belong there.  They don't all need to be out in the country. 

[growalot]

JRM..Yep and people in these towns need to keep a very very close eye on there supervisors and town boards....Yep vacations..."tours"...New vehicles ...etc..ect

Edited January 29, 2015 by growalot

[Doc]

These companies don't just come in and find a piece of land to build on. They do their homework and approach the "right" people. They also provide all their propaganda to these same decision makers. 

 

How many 3rd generation farmers really understand the ramifications of a 400' tower in their pasture? (No offense to farmers - urbanites are just as ignorant on the topic.) They are "sold" by slick company reps and handed packages of "scientific" studies showing how "safe" this "green" energy is. They are not told about any potential downside, only about the _potential_ income (which is sold as guaranteed). They look like saviors the the family farmer who is just getting by (crushed by NY taxes and over-regulation).

 

These decision makers are then sent to town hall in their official capacity to approve these plans.

 

How are residents in a strong position to question all this "science?" Who is capable of refuting the wind company's claims? In the areas I am familiar with, there is no such thing as "broadband" - you are not going to "google" anything meaningful on a dial-up connection. Many of these people would gladly protect their town, but have only been exposed to one side of the issue.

 

Check out the documentary "Windfall" about the Meredith Wind Project. I can't find a direct link to the movie right now, but it is available somewhere online.

In this day of the internet, there is no reason for anyone to be uninformed about any of these kinds of threats to any community .... even rural ones. It is simply a measure of the will of the people. There are many townships who have successfully put regulations in place that effectively exclude windfarm exploitation, so the argument of the poor little community being steamrolled by the giant energy corporation does not fly. If these things get into a community against the will of the residents, it is purely apathy that allows it to happen.

[Doc]

Having seen their tactics, they target the folks who write the ordinances which allow them to build the towers.

And those people are voted in or out by the residents, so the fate of such projects still is in the hands of the residents.

 

It is all explained in a couple of sentences of your post ...... "I have some land in an area that was targeted for wind turbines. It all ended up getting shot down".

[First-light]

These companies don't just come in and find a piece of land to build on. They do their homework and approach the "right" people. They also provide all their propaganda to these same decision makers. 

 

How many 3rd generation farmers really understand the ramifications of a 400' tower in their pasture? (No offense to farmers - urbanites are just as ignorant on the topic.) They are "sold" by slick company reps and handed packages of "scientific" studies showing how "safe" this "green" energy is. They are not told about any potential downside, only about the _potential_ income (which is sold as guaranteed). They look like saviors the the family farmer who is just getting by (crushed by NY taxes and over-regulation).

 

These decision makers are then sent to town hall in their official capacity to approve these plans.

 

How are residents in a strong position to question all this "science?" Who is capable of refuting the wind company's claims? In the areas I am familiar with, there is no such thing as "broadband" - you are not going to "google" anything meaningful on a dial-up connection. Many of these people would gladly protect their town, but have only been exposed to one side of the issue.

 

Check out the documentary "Windfall" about the Meredith Wind Project. I can't find a direct link to the movie right now, but it is available somewhere online.

I wasn't nor was any of my neighbors approached by a slick company rep. It was a local person who had all the information about signing up. When I did do my research on the first wind project in Howard it did raise an eyebrow from me seeing some important names on the list for possible wind towers to be built on their property. I can clearly see where you guys are coming from on this issue. Like fracking there are two sides to the issue and if you google the topic so many articles come up for and against. The one thing that is clear these turbines are huge and you can see them. I would be hard pressed to let this happen on my property if my neighbors weren't involved. Being that they all are involved its a go. 

 

[growalot]

That is the main problem I had with them here...they wanted to spread them all over...Hey want to say the farmers should have a right fine, so they don't need to sell off their lands for housing ...stick to their land, and limit them to one specific area of that land. Not on every person with 50 acres to be had...but then in the same stance...stop the government crop subsidies these farmers get after they have the turbines up. That way in the long run everyone gets at least some benefit from them......That is if the subsidy funds now not being used for farming goes to improving the countries infrastucture.

 

I Know your smack dab in the middle of big Farm land First light.

[jrm]

In this day of the internet, there is no reason for anyone to be uninformed about any of these kinds of threats to any community .... even rural ones. It is simply a measure of the will of the people. There are many townships who have successfully put regulations in place that effectively exclude windfarm exploitation, so the argument of the poor little community being steamrolled by the giant energy corporation does not fly. If these things get into a community against the will of the residents, it is purely apathy that allows it to happen.

 

Internet? What internet? Some of these areas have NO internet access.  Even if they drive 40 minutes to a starbucks and connect with a smart phone, it is difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. This is an issue with two sides. The wind company side is better funded and better organized.

 

Also, the energy company doesn't come in with a parade down main street. They are very quiet, approaching a few key landowners. These people are offered money and must sign a confidentiality agreement.They are forbidden to discuss this with anyone - including neighbors. Most residents have no idea what is happening until it is (almost) too late. 

 

Finally, not everyone has a say on the topic. As you noted, these things are visible from miles away. I have a great view where I am but the area where one of these projects was slated for is in a different town. My neighbors and I had no voice in the outcome.

 

 

And those people are voted in or out by the residents, so the fate of such projects still is in the hands of the residents.

 

It is all explained in a couple of sentences of your post ...... "I have some land in an area that was targeted for wind turbines. It all ended up getting shot down".

 

 

Absolutely. The Meredith documentary illustrates that perfectly. As do many other defeated projects in the Southern tier. People banded together and fought the town board. Long standing officials were voted out... and long-term friendships were destroyed.

 

It was touch and go for a long while. These could have gone either way. Both sides thought they were doing the right thing. Both sides had "solid information" on the topic to support their view. If not for some luck of the right person getting wind of it (pun intended) some of these projects might have gone through.

 

Part of the reason some of these project died was also timing... the economy tanked and made it less economically feasible to keep fighting for the towers. I think these are the modern day equivalent of the "oil rig tax write-off" from the 70s. They provide a great tax benefit for investors. When the economy goes south, the write-off isn't as appealing.

 

I'm with you on this... I think these things are a blight on the land. Others don't agree with that. That is all subjective.

 

Aesthetics aside, I believe there are many other practical downsides. However, the other viewpoint has their own set of arguments to counter that. It is a tough subject and not so black and white.

[First-light]

Internet? What internet? Some of these areas have NO internet access.  Even if they drive 40 minutes to a starbucks and connect with a smart phone, it is difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. This is an issue with two sides. The wind company side is better funded and better organized.

 

Also, the energy company doesn't come in with a parade down main street. They are very quiet, approaching a few key landowners. These people are offered money and must sign a confidentiality agreement.They are forbidden to discuss this with anyone - including neighbors. Most residents have no idea what is happening until it is (almost) too late. 

 

Finally, not everyone has a say on the topic. As you noted, these things are visible from miles away. I have a great view where I am but the area where one of these projects was slated for is in a different town. My neighbors and I had no voice in the outcome.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. The Meredith documentary illustrates that perfectly. As do many other defeated projects in the Southern tier. People banded together and fought the town board. Long standing officials were voted out... and long-term friendships were destroyed.

 

It was touch and go for a long while. These could have gone either way. Both sides thought they were doing the right thing. Both sides had "solid information" on the topic to support their view. If not for some luck of the right person getting wind of it (pun intended) some of these projects might have gone through.

 

Part of the reason some of these project died was also timing... the economy tanked and made it less economically feasible to keep fighting for the towers. I think these are the modern day equivalent of the "oil rig tax write-off" from the 70s. They provide a great tax benefit for investors. When the economy goes south, the write-off isn't as appealing.

 

I'm with you on this... I think these things are a blight on the land. Others don't agree with that. That is all subjective.

 

Aesthetics aside, I believe there are many other practical downsides. However, the other viewpoint has their own set of arguments to counter that. It is a tough subject and not so black and white.

jrm you couldn't be more wrong. This is out in the open. Look at the first post, there is a Facebook page and an informational  page on the companies website. The permuting stage is happening right now, read what I posted about the state gov getting involved. The company funds community projects and benefits. I never signed a confidentiality agreement nor did anyone else. You sign a lease and receive 2 grand a year until the project is built, thats it. Seems like you really have an ax to grind, sorry it didn't turn out well for you.

[Merlot]

I look at the people around me (2) that have very little acreage. The wind co will not be interested in such small piece. So that person may see value erode slightly. i believe the wind co want 50 acres or better for turbines this is not be true for transmission lines.

I recall something about "setbacks"  of 500 feet from adjoining property owners and you are right about the 50 acre per turbine requirement. Our land could only have 2 turbines max since our land is about 140 acres. Sure glad we didn't pursue the turbines...would have been a helluva mess for us. 

[jrm]

jrm you couldn't be more wrong. This is out in the open. Look at the first post, there is a Facebook page and an informational  page on the companies website. The permuting stage is happening right now, read what I posted about the state gov getting involved. The company funds community projects and benefits. I never signed a confidentiality agreement nor did anyone else. You sign a lease and receive 2 grand a year until the project is built, thats it. Seems like you really have an ax to grind, sorry it didn't turn out well for you.

 

 

My apologies, First-light. My comments were not in reference to your specific project. I know nothing of the details of what is happening in your area.

 

My comments were in reference to a few specific projects that I am personally familiar with, all in the southern tier. What I described is how those companies worked in those areas.

 

Your situation seems to work well for your and your neighbors. That is great. As I mentioned, this is not a black and white issue. There are different sides and both can have valid points. What is a boon for one area can be disastrous for another. It is not one size fits all.

 

Regardless of which side you are on, a little research into the topic will show that the companies attempting to build in the southern tier (Meredith, Stamford, Grand Gorge, etc.) employed some very questionable tactics. This is documented and easily verified. That is not to say that all these companies do this in every area (although it does seem to be more common than not).

 

I have no axe to grind. I did not want wind turbines in my area (and seemed to be of the majority opinion). All the projects were soundly defeated a few years ago. None are currently active. I did not purchase my land or build my home until I was sure they were going to be defeated. If these projects looked like they were going to approved, I would have looked elsewhere for my land. I had nothing to lose. Things turned out fine for me, and would have either way.

[First-light]

jrm glad it worked out for you. I agree every situation is different, there are some very slimy people/companies in this world.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

jrm glad it worked out for you. I agree every situation is different, there are some very slimy people/companies in this world.

Again here..Many that did not have the chance to make the extra grand or two a month have a problem with the view. In my area up on the Hill i and many think they fit right into the ski and snowmobile areas that they are located in. I have heard of many out of staters say that bring their sleds up here just to ski-do around them and the views. Different stroke for different folks!

[First-light]

Honestly I am fascinated with them. I'll let you know after a few years, with one on my property, how fascinated I still am. lol

My buddy has two and I'm able to drive right up to them. This is where I judged the noise in all kinds of conditions.  

[Four Season Whitetail's]

So would all the haters think these are an eyesore also?

 

 

 

 

[jjb4900]

 

So would all the haters think these are an eyesore also?

 

 

 

 

now those really fit in, at first glance it just looks like a couple of deer in a field.............just having seen pictures, I would say those are worse than the conventional power lines, 

[Paula]

That would be nice to see FSW