Finding them dead on Long Island.

[growalot]

BTW..infestation not. Investation...post # 20

[dbHunterNY]

when I spoke with the Biologist, he more or less said that they were more concerned with the destruction caused by over browsing in some areas and not so much about the deer not making it through the winter......

 

any biologist worth a darn has always said deer numbers can rebound faster than the habitat and it's possible to wipe out a certain plant species from a given area that deer browse on.  so I believe him too.  you don't hear of many just going to check out the browse in the woods, aside from anything they happen to notice while hunting or doing something else.

 

http://www.qdma.com/articles/get-outside-and-measure-the-deer-food-supply

[phade]

That would make taking out adult deer even more important now wouldn't it...for taking out an adult doe in late season or even the rut would reduce the herd by a possible 2-4 deer....as oppose to the one fawn that may parish anyways and also may be a buck...but alas that may make sense to only me...

 

I fear you are applying logic in an apples to oranges scenario.

 

This is likely a mistake Grow when in a situation where overpopulation is a major issue and can actually compound the problem if this a strategy employed widely.

 

Reducing adult doe population results in increased breeding success and recruitment. When in situations where overpopulation is occuring the average breeding success rate and fawn survival rate is less. Fawns in overpopulated areas are less likely to be bred or engage in breeding that year (as opposed to our areas where doe fawns are bred more commonly) because the needed body weight cannot be acheived. Also, the adult does have a lower successful breeding rate in the overpopulated area - meaning they're not likely carrying a fawn or twins as often as they would, say, up our way.  As well, fawns are also typically recruited at a rate that exceeds the herd's need and represent the largest age class in a herd heading into winter/late season.

 

So, strictly targeting adult does rather than balancing harvest that includes fawns (bb and doe) results in:

1. Increased breeding success of adult does
2. Increased fawn recruitment (surivival 6 mos.)
3. Allows the single largest age class to move upward into the next age class without much harvest - at which point they become breeders.

The proper strategy is to NOT pass fawns imo, whether does or bb in this scenario. They should be included in harvest opportunities with adults.

 

I'm certainly not a biologist at all, but I have learned in specific scenarios the hesitantcy to take fawns is one of the hunters' (as a group) biggest downfalls to being able to control deer numbers. It manifests itself in the worst way in the worst scenarios - people saying they won't shoot fawns in over-populated areas - whether it be for meat reasons, the old yeller effect, or otherwise. Not shooting a fawn in an extreme overpopulation situation is akin to supporting sharpshooters, birth control, and other non-hunting measures, and not being a steward for the land/resources. In most cases this is done not because of neglect, it's because there's not enough knowledge spread to make it part of the cultural thinking of hunters. We're our own worst enemy, and this is a prime example.

Edited February 23, 2015 by phade

[growalot]

Let me ask...since we all know your under a micro scope down there...trying hard to get access...some succeeding....what do you think the results would be for those that secured land and those trying..if pictures were posted across the internet and news of guys carrying fawns out of those woods...Tell me how that one deer that may have died anyways would be of help in any measure to what your goals are...Just questions that should be pondered

This discussion a out LI right? Now you say increased breeding of 6 month olds...That would be the same age class they are finding dead now right?

Edited February 23, 2015 by growalot

[dbHunterNY]

Access is the main reason we cant get it done Steve just like you said and like i said before i know this is natures way of thinning the heard and i am fine with that. Get me into some private spots that are loaded with deer and i will gladly do my part and shoot as many as the land owner would like. But im not going to do it in the areas that i do hunt where the problem doesn't exist. 

 

John

 

we see this problem in my area.  only we don't get as many tags so the fact that everyone as a group isn't doing their part kills the effort more.

[phade]

the areas that i am hunting where there are larger parcels of woods are not the problem areas. its in peoples backyards and smaller private parcels where there is a big problem. They keep increasing season dates which is really not helping the  problem at all. it is just pushing more deer out of huntable areas and into areas where they know they are safe which will not fix the problem. There is really no easy way to fix the deer problem on Long Island by just shooting as many as you can b/c its not that simple.

 

John

 

There is an easy way - sharpshooters, birth control, etc.

 

Failing to shoot a fawn in such a situation doesn't sit well with me (for me personally). I would feel like I am a poor steward of the land/resource and am being complicit in the downfall of something I value. People will take away hunting or impact it negatively, and if I'm passing fawns, I'm a part of the problem.

[wooly]

At least you guys can find the dead ones.

I took a hike through an old orchard yesterday and I couldn't tell you if there was one dead deer or 30 dead deer under all this crap.

It's not so bad on the packed deer trails, but they have browsed at least 3ft higher on the hemlocks and apples than they normaly would be able to reach.

If anything, the massive snow totals may have saved a few deer this year around these parts by making out of reach browse available to them at this stage of winter. I didn't make it 1/2 mile deep into this crap over a couple hours before heading out the same way I came in.

The walls on the deer trails are so deep you can see where their shoulders bounce off the sides as they walk along.

Maybe those LI deer are just sissy's,lol!

 

 

 

 

[phade]

That was the point I was trying to make last year, when I said that the LI hunters are not getting the job done.  I realize there are some road blocks for the hunters out there, the biggest being access to private land, but if they continue passing up does and fawn just to wait for those big bucks, this is what can happen.  Of course some had a cow over the statements I made.  

 

I will say it again, LI in general is piss poor habitat for deer.  Seeing them die like this may appear cruel to some, but if it will bring down some deer numbers that the hunters aren't bringing down, it might not be a bad thing in the scheme of things.  At least the hunters can't bitch that high priced snipers were called in for the jobs they could have done, or should I say COULDN'T get done.

 

Steve the problem is a big winterkill or starvation is much more visible to non-hunting residents. It's also the ammo they need to say hunters can't get the job done as you noted.

[phade]

Let me ask...since we all know your under a micro scope down there...trying hard to get access...some succeeding....what do you think the results would be for those that secured land and those trying..if pictures were posted across the internet and news of guys carrying fawns out of those woods...Tell me how that one deer that may have died anyways would be of help in any measure to what your goals are...Just questions that should be pondered

 

Shooting a fawn and being carried out by a hunter vs. a fawn that can't get up in Mr. Neighbor's yard, stumbling, bumbling, and dying next to the garden gnome. See which one results faster in sharpshooters or resdidents crying for resources that reduce the hunting opportunities across the board.

[mbucks27]

They have already tried sharpshooters Phade. Didn't work. Bottom line is hunters need more access to the smaller private parcels until this happens nothing will change on the island. 

 

John

[phade]

This discussion a out LI right? Now you say increased breeding of 6 month olds...That would be the same age class they are finding dead now right?

 

This doesn't make sense. Nobody is talking about increased breeding of 6 mos. olds in LI. Please re-read and let me know if that question still pertains.

Edited February 23, 2015 by phade

[phade]

They have already tried sharpshooters Phade. Didn't work. Bottom line is hunters need more access to the smaller private parcels until this happens nothing will change on the island. 

 

John

 

I am sure they have. It will only be a matter of time before the volume, expanse and breadth of non-hunting efforts increase to the point your ability to hunt or your enjoyment thereof, is negatively impacted.

[growalot]

So John..your opinion...people seeing guys dragging fawn v adult doe out...which would hurt getting access...mind you..when people understand mother nature v hunting

[jjb4900]

There is an easy way - sharpshooters, birth control, etc.

both been done down here this past year........and the people doing the sterilizing were pretty much as effective as the sharpshooters in the amount of deer they were able to get,  If it turns out to be successful,  I'm sure there will be more to come.

[mbucks27]

I am sure they have. It will only be a matter of time before the volume, expanse and breadth of non-hunting efforts increase to the point your ability to hunt or your enjoyment thereof, is negatively impacted.

 

Agree 100% with you on this.

[phade]

I'm done with this conversation. Put my 2 cents in.

[phade]

Agree 100% with you on this.

 

And that is why people there should shoot the 25lb fawn. Not shooting it only advances this effort imo.

 

Sorry, somehow deleted this from my last post.

Edited February 23, 2015 by phade

[NFA-ADK]

Bites his tongue. 

[growalot]

Your correct..,I misread ..Will respond later when off kindle...this trying to correct auto is killing me...and I can't quote..

[dbHunterNY]

At least you guys can find the dead ones.

I took a hike through an old orchard yesterday and I couldn't tell you if there was one dead deer or 30 dead deer under all this crap.

It's not so bad on the packed deer trails, but they have browsed at least 3ft higher on the hemlocks and apples than they normaly would be able to reach.

If anything, the massive snow totals may have saved a few deer this year around these parts by making out of reach browse available to them at this stage of winter. I didn't make it 1/2 mile deep into this crap over a couple hours before heading out the same way I came in.

The walls on the deer trails are so deep you can see where their shoulders bounce off the sides as they walk along.

Maybe those LI deer are just sissy's,lol!

 

DSCN1665.JPG

 

no sheds that trip I take it?? might make finding them easier.  just walk the trenches?

[NFA-ADK]

At least you guys can find the dead ones.

I took a hike through an old orchard yesterday and I couldn't tell you if there was one dead deer or 30 dead deer under all this crap.

It's not so bad on the packed deer trails, but they have browsed at least 3ft higher on the hemlocks and apples than they normaly would be able to reach.

If anything, the massive snow totals may have saved a few deer this year around these parts by making out of reach browse available to them at this stage of winter. I didn't make it 1/2 mile deep into this crap over a couple hours before heading out the same way I came in.

The walls on the deer trails are so deep you can see where their shoulders bounce off the sides as they walk along.

Maybe those LI deer are just sissy's,lol!

 

DSCN1665.JPG

 

I believe the segregation of some doe groups and relatively mild winters have thrown the breading off at times.  Causing some doe to become pregnant later than usual, including fawns. 

[dbHunterNY]

I believe the segregation of some doe groups and relatively mild winters have thrown the breading off at times.  Causing some doe to become pregnant later than usual, including fawns. 

 

I'm not sure what you meant by segregation but if doe are kept from bucks somehow then I could agree.  mild winters I'm not sure have much to do with breeding.  unless you're talking a doe fawn getting up to weight to come into estrous due to the mild winter.  i don't think that applies to adult doe.  Aside from that, I've been with the understanding that photo-period (changes in the length of daylight in each day) is what causes the stages of the rut to kick in.

 is that what you mean, idk maybe we're on the same page?  the "...including fawns" part threw me off is all.  I'm sure someone will correct me if I've got anything wrong.

 

[phade]

probably meant fawning

Edited February 24, 2015 by phade

[pistolp71]

Those deer were grooming each other, not eating ticks off each other. Somebody mentioned there is not much snow out here. There is at least 2 feet of frozen snow here by me, and it was -4 this morning. And I gotta say, just don't believe that there were fawns born in November. Firstlight, what was this biologists name and where can I talk to him?

[First-light]

Go to the Ridge check in station. Talk to any of them there.