Another DEC abortion on the way...

[gjs4]

Does anyone else think the DEC can do a lot better in being honest in what they want?

Shouldn't they give the hunters the population/deer densities of wmu's? The carrying capacities of wmu's and then what % of the carrying capacity they want the deer population to be?

I wonder if they know or even care? Or if they try to get hunters to shoot as many deer as possible till hunters complain there aren't any.

They don't know, never have and never will. That should help you answer the other questions.

Don't you love a game of we need to take more but don't ask how many we have left?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Doc]

They don't know, never have and never will. That should help you answer the other questions.

Don't you love a game of we need to take more but don't ask how many we have left?

Oh now, you know how perfect their statistical methods of management are. Haven't they told you enough times? They even have some statistical gurus come in and swear to it. Don't ever offer suggestions for improvements or you will get the old "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" line. In other words they are convinced that their methods are flawless and everything is under control and on track.

[Doc]

I guess our definitions of insignificant must be different. Could you do me a favor Doc? Could you point me to the post where I or anyone suggested that Co-ops should be the focus of our efforts while not holding DEC's feet to the fire on the state wide plan? I must have missed that one or misspoke myself. I would like to correct that.

Post number 59 started off that line of thought:

 

"I know it is tough to build interest in managing a property if you don't own it, but if we all took matters into our own hands with some good boots on the ground knowledge of that property we can do what DEC can't or won't."

 

And I have been arguing that we cannot do "what the DEC can't or won't" and that such suggestions simply muddy the waters and take focus off where our real efforts should lie. The limited actions of Co-ops and such are not doing what the DEC is supposed to be doing. The DEC is a statewide activity. Co-ops are isolated local activities that are nice for those involved but have no relationship to statewide management. Further, the scope of the co-op activity cannot even come close to matching what the DEC is up against, and that is why I say that it is insignificant and not relevant to statewide game management. We need to make the DEC work and stop breaking the focus with looking for distracting end-runs.

[Doc]

I see the crossbow, used early, as the real key to taking out more of these wise, older does.   Getting in early and without noise,  before hunting pressure gets intense would help a ton.  Just like a ML, a crossbow does not require that draw movement in close like a regular bow, so it can slowly be moved into position for a shot without spooking a group of deer.  It also has the huge advantage over a ML of a silent report. To only allow crossbows at the end of the bow season defeats the advantage, when many of the does are already nocturnal due to pressure.   In areas that need a reduction in population, they should open crossbow, for antlerless deer only, at least two weeks ahead of the current regular bow season.   They also should allow folks to use a regular bow during that special pre-season if they wish.            

 

.......It would be a lot better to give sportsman who use the meat better tools (crossbow) and more time to get the job done.   

Oh for crying out loud .... Let's stop pussy-footing around and simply turn the damn bow season over to a no-buck gun season and be done with it. That's where all this crap is heading anyway. I love all the play-acting. We have to go through all the steps of first introducing crossbows in part of the bow season. And then push farther to add them throughout the whole bowseason. And when the time is right they add the muzzleloaders to the bow season, just to make it all look like they were forced to hand bowseason over to the guns. Exactly what I said 3 or 4 or more years ago is what is in process right now.

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Post number 59 started off that line of thought:

 

"I know it is tough to build interest in managing a property if you don't own it, but if we all took matters into our own hands with some good boots on the ground knowledge of that property we can do what DEC can't or won't."

 

And I have been arguing that we cannot do "what the DEC can't or won't" and that such suggestions simply muddy the waters and take focus off where our real efforts should lie. The limited actions of Co-ops and such are not doing what the DEC is supposed to be doing. The DEC is a statewide activity. Co-ops are isolated local activities that are nice for those involved but have no relationship to statewide management. Further, the scope of the co-op activity cannot even come close to matching what the DEC is up against, and that is why I say that it is insignificant and not relevant to statewide game management. We need to make the DEC work and stop breaking the focus with looking for distracting end-runs.

Let's not play the part where we only use part of a quote.

 

"A shameless plug here but my involvement in the QDMA has opened my eyes to what I thought I knew and how I went about thing along this line. I know it is tough to build interest in managing a property if you don't own it, but if we all took matters into our own hands with some good boots on the ground knowledge of that property we can do what DEC can't or won't. manage the take for the property. not seeing deer with good habitat, don't fill them. don't have enough tags to remove the deer your census shows, invite a youth or a vet or a couple buddies in for a doe hunt."

 

in the context I was using it I was speaking specifically of your specific properties. I in now way meant that for a cure for state wide. So better to do nothing if we see a better option for the specific lands we hunt? You may not be able to multi task Doc, but taking personal responsibility for the land you hunt AND being involved in trying to correct what we see are issues with the Government and the DEC is something I think we all should be doing.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

In reality they will never meet the "goals" in these areas unless they address the access issues  that NYAntler eluded to. More permits and pushing the burden on the least effective tool in the hunters arsenal (bow season) won't do it. They could probably try an avenue like they use in archery only area like 8C, (keep checking in does and keep getting permits). It may not be popular but the best weapon to do this with is the firearm. I would rather see them take the first week of gun and make it antlerless only in the targeted WMU's than do it in the bow season. The harvest numbers just aren't there in bow season. This is set up for failure.

[dbHunterNY]

Oh for crying out loud .... Let's stop pussy-footing around and simply turn the damn bow season over to a no-buck gun season and be done with it. That's where all this crap is heading anyway. I love all the play-acting. We have to go through all the steps of first introducing crossbows in part of the bow season. And then push farther to add them throughout the whole bowseason. And when the time is right they add the muzzleloaders to the bow season, just to make it all look like they were forced to hand bowseason over to the guns. Exactly what I said 3 or 4 or more years ago is what is in process right now.

 

 

you can't just make all bow season a gun season even temporarily.  a big portion of hunters that hunt with a bow you'd piss off to the point they'll hunt elsewhere.  then where the doe numbers are the most problematic is urban or close to it areas where you can't hunt with a gun ever.  DMPs and DMAPs are issued every year in much larger quantities than there are deer needed to be taken and they're good throughout the season.  I'm sure the numbers are out there for the state but we did the best out of multiple counties for filling % of DMAPs and we didn't fill more than half.  I'd be surprised if it was much more than that.  We've just got to get people to squeeze dang trigger if they hunt one of these areas.  it's that simple.  DEC has even said so that we're beyond creating more opportunity and permits.  Also, being proposed is increasing the quantity of antlerless management type tags like DMAPs from 2 to 4 per hunter.  So those who are willing to fill them can do so more than before, that includes with a gun.  Also they aren't for any specific hunter.  This is huge as bonus DMPs are a pain in the butt to get with limited DEC manned check station hours and the effort and time it takes to get one.  Now you've got more tags in your pocket from the start and ready to be filled.

[dbHunterNY]

In reality they will never meet the "goals" in these areas unless they address the access issues  that NYAntler eluded to. More permits and pushing the burden on the least effective tool in the hunters arsenal (bow season) won't do it. They could probably try an avenue like they use in archery only area like 8C, (keep checking in does and keep getting permits). It may not be popular but the best weapon to do this with is the firearm. I would rather see them take the first week of gun and make it antlerless only in the targeted WMU's than do it in the bow season. The harvest numbers just aren't there in bow season. This is set up for failure.

 

based on my experience the only reason they're dumping burden on bowhunters is because you can get them to shoot more than you could with a gun hunter.  it was twisting someone's arm to ask a gun hunter to pull the trigger during the first couple weeks of gun season.  it's prime time and they don't want to ruin their hunts with loud bangs and trampling through the woods just to get a doe.  also they think that doe is better suited at the time for bait to lure a buck out of cover.  this is the reasoning I got from them aside from the simple unwillingness to shoot a doe at all.  I agree though.... putting the burden on bowhunters will have some but most definitely limited success.  pressure to make harvest happen and putting the squeeze on a hunter during late season is also asking to fail.  snow impedes access, deer are now on edge, it's cold, and effort is diminished from a long season away from family.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

based on my experience the only reason they're dumping burden on bowhunters is because you can get them to shoot more than you could with a gun hunter.  it was twisting someone's arm to ask a gun hunter to pull the trigger during the first couple weeks of gun season.  it's prime time and they don't want to ruin their hunts with loud bangs and trampling through the woods just to get a doe.  also they think that doe is better suited at the time for bait to lure a buck out of cover.  this is the reasoning I got from them aside from the simple unwillingness to shoot a doe at all.  I agree though.... putting the burden on bowhunters will have some but most definitely limited success.  pressure to make harvest happen and putting the squeeze on a hunter during late season is also asking to fail.  snow impedes access, deer are now on edge, it's cold, and effort is diminished from a long season away from family.

I know it is too much change at one time but if we were already at a one buck rule in the state, think about a bonus buck after checking in "X' number of does. Again, these are tough areas because of access, but giving those that CAN the ability and incentive to take the deer may get it done. I think there are more options out there than the bow season one. mathematically it just can't produce the take they are looking for.

[growalot]

I wish there would be a survey on hunters doing what I  have set in motion should this go through as is..

 

How many hunters that normally hunt the first two weeks of early bow,  in these aforementioned, high doe density areas. How many now  have plans to move into areas they can shoot either a doe or a buck that first two weeks?

 

How many will get their doe tags for other areas that will allow them to hunt both buck and doe.

I know that there are at least 3 groups of hunters that border me that also have lands and or hunting spots in bordering units. I know they will get their early tags for those other areas and come back for the extra Nov1. doe tags for this area...They do that now, they go for the more difficult tags in  the "draw" and come Nov. 1 they take the extra tags here...The only difference is they hunted here the first two weeks because they knew that they could take that summer buck they'd been watching before he started to move into other properties, yet would not hesitate to drop a doe in the mean time...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I wish there would be a survey on hunters doing what I  have set in motion should this go through as is..

 

How many hunters that normally hunt the first two weeks of early bow,  in these aforementioned, high doe density areas. How many now  have plans to move into areas they can shoot either a doe or a buck that first two weeks?

 

How many will get their doe tags for other areas that will allow them to hunt both buck and doe.

I know that there are at least 3 groups of hunters that border me that also have lands and or hunting spots in bordering units. I know they will get their early tags for those other areas and come back for the extra Nov1. doe tags for this area...They do that now, they go for the more difficult tags in  the "draw" and come Nov. 1 they take the extra tags here...The only difference is they hunted here the first two weeks because they knew that they could take that summer buck they'd been watching before he started to move into other properties, yet would not hesitate to drop a doe in the mean time...

I will still probably hunt at home, 8H for things like a quick after work sit. but for a day or full weekend I will likely be in 8M or 7R.

[dbHunterNY]

Post number 59 started off that line of thought:

 

"I know it is tough to build interest in managing a property if you don't own it, but if we all took matters into our own hands with some good boots on the ground knowledge of that property we can do what DEC can't or won't."

 

And I have been arguing that we cannot do "what the DEC can't or won't" and that such suggestions simply muddy the waters and take focus off where our real efforts should lie. The limited actions of Co-ops and such are not doing what the DEC is supposed to be doing. The DEC is a statewide activity. Co-ops are isolated local activities that are nice for those involved but have no relationship to statewide management. Further, the scope of the co-op activity cannot even come close to matching what the DEC is up against, and that is why I say that it is insignificant and not relevant to statewide game management. We need to make the DEC work and stop breaking the focus with looking for distracting end-runs.

 

not sure why the two would be compared as the same... we've had enough threads debating differences among other management related stuff.  DEC has goals and co-ops have goals.  in the simplest form we're both managing deer.  DEC has to sustain a reasonable huntable population of deer statewide, while keeping people statewide mostly happy.  I agree co-ops can't and won't do this.  however, a co-op also can do "what the DEC can't or won't" and that's micro manage local deer to an optimum level with more focused effort.  it is limited to a minority of the state sure.  I assure you though insignificant is a very wrong word.  requirements for deer management permit application, the annual hunting guide, and lots of other DEC resources are influenced by co-ops.  we work and talk with the DEC much more than other hunters.  They don't need to figure anything out about the deer in the area of a co-op because they're already filled in on the situation whether it be from management plan application info or other correspondence.  Co-ops are growing each year at a rate that will inevitably increase their significance or relevance.  also when it comes to DEC squeaky wheels get the grease and we're are right up there with the squeakiest.

 

each serve different purposes but are meant to work together by design.  neither are meant to replace one another.

[dbHunterNY]

I know it is too much change at one time but if we were already at a one buck rule in the state, think about a bonus buck after checking in "X' number of does. Again, these are tough areas because of access, but giving those that CAN the ability and incentive to take the deer may get it done. I think there are more options out there than the bow season one. mathematically it just can't produce the take they are looking for.

 

definitely a lot of ways to do it.  I think a form of earn a second buck will have to be tuned with trial and error but would be effective.  not that they would actually take two bucks in the end but the opportunity would seem sweet to be in and enough of a driving factor to harvest more doe.  for goals of protecting young bucks it's a crappy management tool as many don't kill multiple bucks often in the same year.  for doe take I feel it'd work well enough to implement.

Edited June 1, 2015 by dbHunterNY

[stubby68]

based on my experience the only reason they're dumping burden on bowhunters is because you can get them to shoot more than you could with a gun hunter.  it was twisting someone's arm to ask a gun hunter to pull the trigger during the first couple weeks of gun season.  it's prime time and they don't want to ruin their hunts with loud bangs and trampling through the woods just to get a doe.  also they think that doe is better suited at the time for bait to lure a buck out of cover.  this is the reasoning I got from them aside from the simple unwillingness to shoot a doe at all.  I agree though.... putting the burden on bowhunters will have some but most definitely limited success.  pressure to make harvest happen and putting the squeeze on a hunter during late season is also asking to fail.  snow impedes access, deer are now on edge, it's cold, and effort is diminished from a long season away from family.

 

 

                                       Realy? Twisting gun hunters to shoot doe? I do not think so. I thiunk the DEC is finally seeing what I have seen for years even when I was a bow hunter. That would the fact that the majority of bow hunters are decorators and will not even consider shooting a doe. Gun hunters for the most part are meat hunters. The bow hunter crowed looking for trophies has risen and the number of gun hunters looking for meat has fallen. Areas manily gun hunting have less of a problem with too many does and areas with manily bow hunting have a huge problem with does.

 

 

                                     Just look at this forum we have two threds about the new regs and if you go through and read the posts most of them are saying but I might see that buck of a life time thats not fair. Go to other forums and you see the same thing. Maybe if the Bow hunters tried being hunters and not decorators this would not be happening.  The proff are the posts in these threads that are saying we will not hunt in those doe only areas at all or the ones who say I'm not hunting untill the first two weeks are done. Talk about a statement that says we are buck killers only.

 

                                     I know you are thinking if this would happen to gun season then I would be complaining like the bow hunters are now. You would be wrong for all I care they can keep my buck tag and replace it with a doe tag. I bet if the DEC came out and said no buck hunting for all deer seasons for this year there would be a ton of guys and gals not even buying a lisences at all. I also would bet that the persentage of bow hunters steping out of hunting would dwarf the number of gun hunters that would.

 

                                    Ever think that the DEC might be trying to do away with bow hunting because they see it as usless? Why else would they be doing all of these things during bow season. Looks like they trying to drive bow hunters away does it not?

 

                                   No matter what they do they will never get bow hunters to kill more does unless they some how get does to grow antlers.

 

                                 Bow hunters call gun hunters the brown is down crowed because they say we will shoot anything no matter its age or size of rack so how can you say that getting a gun hunter to kill a doe is like twisting there arm? 

[Five Seasons]

To put another angle on shooting a doe. A dozen of my arrows cost $170. $40 for 3 rage broadheads and lets say on average $80 to cut up a deer. Assuming my arrow breaks you're a tick over $100 to harvest a doe. I understand it can be done for cheaper by using cheaper tools and butchering yourself.

 

So lets say it ranges from $60 to $120 to harvest a deer. This does not account for time, labor, fuel etc. It is not encompassing license, gear etc. as it's assumed you have all that to buck hunt. It does not account for some locations where the drag out is an absolute nightmare. I have some spots where it's hands and knees pulling up a ravine edge. We rarely take does in that spot.

 

Not all guys are meat hunters. Some don't even eat venison at all. Is it fair to put an economic burden on bowhunters as well? How many get left in the woods to rot?

 

I'd like to add that i've taken 2 doe a year for about 3 years now in addition to bucks. It all gets eaten and usually before the next season. This is just a talking point that warrants attention in my opinion.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Belo

[phade]

To put another angle on shooting a doe. A dozen of my arrows cost $170. $40 for 3 rage broadheads and lets say on average $80 to cut up a deer. Assuming my arrow breaks you're a tick over $100 to harvest a doe. I understand it can be done for cheaper by using cheaper tools and butchering yourself.

 

So lets say it ranges from $60 to $120 to harvest a deer. This does not account for time, labor, fuel etc. It is not encompassing license, gear etc. as it's assumed you have all that to buck hunt. It does not account for some locations where the drag out is an absolute nightmare. I have some spots where it's hands and knees pulling up a ravine edge. We rarely take does in that spot.

 

Not all guys are meat hunters. Some don't even eat venison at all. Is it fair to put an economic burden on bowhunters as well? How many get left in the woods to rot?

 

I'd like to add that i've taken 2 doe a year for about 3 years now in addition to bucks. It all gets eaten and usually before the next season. This is just a talking point that warrants attention in my opinion.

 

My party of three who hunts within these WMUs in question shot 15 deer last season, 13 of which were antlerless. 

 

Past three seasons or so...we average about that number overall.

 

Now we'll be limited on harvest opportunities...awesome. Don't think we not the norm or close to it...hunters in that area are usually pretty responsive to filling tags.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

My party of three who hunts within these WMUs in question shot 15 deer last season, 13 of which were antlerless. 

 

Past three seasons or so...we average about that number overall.

 

Now we'll be limited on harvest opportunities...awesome. Don't think we not the norm or close to it...hunters in that area are usually pretty responsive to filling tags.

I agree. my group of 4 take between 11 and 14. We could do more in most years if we had tags, and would be willing to do it. I wish they would run it like 8C rather than having to wait until the second lottery to get more. I use my initial lottery picks down at hunting camp. If I didn't have to wait until the later draw I would be able to fill more during bow.

[phade]

I agree. my group of 4 take between 11 and 14. We could do more in most years if we had tags, and would be willing to do it. I wish they would run it like 8C rather than having to wait until the second lottery to get more. I use my initial lottery picks down at hunting camp. If I didn't have to wait until the later draw I would be able to fill more during bow.

 

OTC really is the answer...big impact, low investment, no changes to hunter opportunity.

[growalot]

Last year the first deer I shot was a buck and the second a doe all in bow season...I never took a deer during gun season last year....Nov 9th(buck) and Dec16th with a cross bow(doe) but I took my first shot on a deer Oct 9th ..a doe that was farther out than estimated.( forgot my range finder that evening)

I went through posts and as usual I was hunting doe from day one...just luck wasn't with me...I also went back and most of the doe in the last several years have all been taken during bow season..Because when I hunt..it's for the best shot on what is near except fawns and yes buck under 6-8 pts...They are just not worth the effort for some one my age ,injuries and butchering time. I hunt nearly every day until luck gives me filled tags...mostly filled with doe.

I just refuse to waste my time if I can't hunt what I want and that is doe,BUT with the hopes of a nice buck...Hunting is done for many reasons...one of the reasons I hunt is to enjoy what may be a gratifying experience... for ME that is being able to hunt KNOWING I have a chance at either a good doe or a good buck while being in the woods...

Having a Good buck walk within range with a good shot opportunity but not allowed to shoot...not so gratifying .So I will just move on and hopefully have some gratifying hunts else where for 15 days.

Edited June 1, 2015 by growalot

[Five Seasons]

Last year the first deer I shot was a buck and the second a doe all in bow season...I never took a deer during gun season last year....Nov 9th(buck) and Dec16th with a cross bow(doe) but I took my first shot on a deer Oct 9th ..a doe that was farther out than estimated.( forgot my range finder that evening)

I went through posts and as usual I was hunting doe from day one...just luck wasn't with me...I also went back and most of the doe in the last several years have all been taken during bow season..Because when I hunt..it's for the best shot on what is near except fawns and yes buck under 6-8 pts...They are just not worth the effort for some one my age ,injuries and butchering time. I hunt nearly every day until luck gives me filled tags...mostly filled with doe.

I just refuse to waist my time if I can't hunt what I want and that is doe,BUT with the hopes of a nice buck...Hunting is done for many reasons...one of the reasons I hunt is to enjoy what may be a gratifying experience... for ME that is being able to hunt KNOWING I have a chance at either a good doe or a good buck while being in the woods...

Having a Good buck walk within range with a good shot opportunity but not allowed to shoot...not so gratifying .So I will just move on and hopefully have some gratifying hunts else where for 15 days.

 

I've had the recent experience to hunt heavily pressured low deer pop land. "just a doe" can get you excited when you haven't seen much or anything in weeks. Let alone that doe comes within bow range. In comparison I've hunted some private land in ny where you can almost take a doe every day out. In NY we let the doe go early on because they're good bait come rut. Most of our doe are local and suck in bucks from other areas.

 

Also taking a doe on the wrong day where it might not be raining soon will stink up the area and maybe ward off a mature buck.

 

Finally, on more than one occasion I've gotten excited and shot a small buck or doe, only to have a bigger buck come through. Had I been patient I'd have 1 or 2 more on the wall.

 

On public land I'll take the doe to fill the freezer. On private well populated, I'll wait till MZ to take my freezer meat.

[growalot]

Even on heavy populated hunting land ...one can have a difficult time shooting doe  as last year taught me well..

 BTW that was waste not waist.. Must have not getting to the gym on my mind

I hate to admit it, but I just may have had the doe I wanted for donations that first week had I been holding my crossbow  ...even though I have no problem shooting deer out to 35 yards with my bow I could have taken several that were just beyond that,including the doe I missed..which is another flaw in the whole first 2 wks of early bow for doe only...the late bow season where the cross bow can be used, I have no problem with. I have areas on my land I'd love to hunt and will with the cross bow, but can't legally with the ML.

 

If they are trying to pass this off as a well thought out plan, then my opinion of them being akin to the Keystone Cops is accurate

[dbHunterNY]

 

based on my experience the only reason they're dumping burden on bowhunters is because you can get them to shoot more than you could with a gun hunter.  it was twisting someone's arm to ask a gun hunter to pull the trigger during the first couple weeks of gun season.  it's prime time and they don't want to ruin their hunts with loud bangs and trampling through the woods just to get a doe.  also they think that doe is better suited at the time for bait to lure a buck out of cover.  this is the reasoning I got from them aside from the simple unwillingness to shoot a doe at all.  I agree though.... putting the burden on bowhunters will have some but most definitely limited success.  pressure to make harvest happen and putting the squeeze on a hunter during late season is also asking to fail.  snow impedes access, deer are now on edge, it's cold, and effort is diminished from a long season away from family.

 

 

                                       Realy? Twisting gun hunters to shoot doe? I do not think so. I thiunk the DEC is finally seeing what I have seen for years even when I was a bow hunter. That would the fact that the majority of bow hunters are decorators and will not even consider shooting a doe. Gun hunters for the most part are meat hunters. The bow hunter crowed looking for trophies has risen and the number of gun hunters looking for meat has fallen. Areas manily gun hunting have less of a problem with too many does and areas with manily bow hunting have a huge problem with does.

 

 

                                     Just look at this forum we have two threds about the new regs and if you go through and read the posts most of them are saying but I might see that buck of a life time thats not fair. Go to other forums and you see the same thing. Maybe if the Bow hunters tried being hunters and not decorators this would not be happening.  The proff are the posts in these threads that are saying we will not hunt in those doe only areas at all or the ones who say I'm not hunting untill the first two weeks are done. Talk about a statement that says we are buck killers only.

 

                                     I know you are thinking if this would happen to gun season then I would be complaining like the bow hunters are now. You would be wrong for all I care they can keep my buck tag and replace it with a doe tag. I bet if the DEC came out and said no buck hunting for all deer seasons for this year there would be a ton of guys and gals not even buying a lisences at all. I also would bet that the persentage of bow hunters steping out of hunting would dwarf the number of gun hunters that would.

 

                                    Ever think that the DEC might be trying to do away with bow hunting because they see it as usless? Why else would they be doing all of these things during bow season. Looks like they trying to drive bow hunters away does it not?

 

                                   No matter what they do they will never get bow hunters to kill more does unless they some how get does to grow antlers.

 

                                 Bow hunters call gun hunters the brown is down crowed because they say we will shoot anything no matter its age or size of rack so how can you say that getting a gun hunter to kill a doe is like twisting there arm? 

 

 

you seem pretty bothered by the post I made.  Apparently your situation is different in Wyoming.  I can except that.  I said what my experiences were and that's in Rensselaer county (4C).  unless you hunt and talk to those who do out here I'm not sure how you can tell me I'm flat out wrong.  also you're sounding like hunters use either one or the other.  probably 95% of the people I know are both gun and bowhunters.  come gun season they just pick up a gun.  maybe there's a further disconnect there to compare apples to apples.  whole lot of stereotyping in your post and I'm not sure I've got an answer for you, as it wouldn't be something you'd want to hear as an answer to your rhetorical questions.

[Doc]

whole lot of stereotyping in your post and I'm not sure I've got an answer for you, as it wouldn't be something you'd want to hear as an answer to your rhetorical questions.

Ha-ha .... Stubby is our resident bowhunter-hater. I wouldn't take too much of that bowhunter bashing seriously.

[Doc]

Let's not play the part where we only use part of a quote.

 

"A shameless plug here but my involvement in the QDMA has opened my eyes to what I thought I knew and how I went about thing along this line. I know it is tough to build interest in managing a property if you don't own it, but if we all took matters into our own hands with some good boots on the ground knowledge of that property we can do what DEC can't or won't. manage the take for the property. not seeing deer with good habitat, don't fill them. don't have enough tags to remove the deer your census shows, invite a youth or a vet or a couple buddies in for a doe hunt."

 

in the context I was using it I was speaking specifically of your specific properties. I in now way meant that for a cure for state wide. So better to do nothing if we see a better option for the specific lands we hunt? You may not be able to multi task Doc, but taking personal responsibility for the land you hunt AND being involved in trying to correct what we see are issues with the Government and the DEC is something I think we all should be doing.

I used the relevant part of the quote so nobody had to wade through the rest and lose the point.

 

Look, I am simply concerned that an implication of all this co-op stuff is that it is some kind of cure for NYS management problems. It is not and we need to stay focused on the DEC. Co-ops are things that individuals do for their own personal benefit. That is not what this thread is about. Given the context of this thread, if co-ops were not introduced into this discussion about the DEC as being some kind of magic bullet to solve state management shortfalls, then I really don't understand how it relates to the thread at all. I don't want anyone leaving this discussion with the idea that the DEC is off the hook and a solution is on the way via co-ops. The DEC is still the focus. The main focus, and the only focus when you are talking about NYS game management problems.

 

[orion]

Trying to figure whats so bad about Stubby's post.

 

Just look at the #'s, percentage wise bowhunters shoot far fewer does then gun hunters. I believe that's his point!